Topic: "Dragon Knights" Deathworld Marines.

[Wargamer]

Okay, here's the lowdown on the Dragon Knights. Please tell me what you think:
ARMY SPECIAL RULES:
1) The Dragon Knights should, whenever possible, fight in Jungle, just like Deathworld Veterans.
2) Models with the "Deathworld Veteran" skill can see upto 12" in jungle, and ignore movement penalties caused by jungle (and only jungle!).
3) The Raptor Blade adds +1 Str, and counts any Sv over 4+ as 4+. It costs +10pts from the armoury.
ARMY LIST:
HQ: Heroes*, Librarians*, Chaplains*, Command Squad.
ELITE: Terminators, Terminator Assault Squads, Dreadnoughts (0-1), Veterans (Cost 21pts, but have the "Deathworld Veteran" skills).
TROOPS: Tactical Squad**, Scout Squad.
FAST ATTACK: Raptor Squad***, Bikes, Scout Bikes, Attack Bikes, Land Speeders (all types).
HEAVY SUPPORT: As Codex.
* = Any HQ unit may have a Narthecium, but Chaplains must take one. This does not count towards the Chaplain's Wargear.
** = The Squad may be made into Deathworld Veterans at +3pts per model. They then use all the rules above. Also, Tactical Squads may be upto twelve men strong.
*** = Raptors use the rules below:
              Cost  Ws  Bs  S  T  W  I  A  Ld  Sv
Raptor      20     4    4   4  4  1  4  1   8   3+
Vet. Sgt   +15    4    4   4  4  1  4  2   9   3+
Squad: 5-10 models.
Wargear: Bolt Pistol & CC weapon.
Options: Make Sgt to Vet. Sgt at +15pts. Upto two models may be given Raptor Blades at +5pts per model. The entire Squad may have Frag Grenades at +1pt per model.
SPECIAL RULES:
Deathworld Veterans: Raptors are Deathworld Veterans (see above).
Ambush: Raptors can ambush (see Codex: Catachans).


Well, what does everyone think?

[Inquizitor Zim]

Interesting...did u make this yrself?
Colour schemes?
And maybe u sould look at the scouts in ths Space W codx 4 more ideas.

[Farseer Anhurias]

just a thought but why not make the raptors troop choices?  i say this only because "dragon knight" conjures up an image of those jumping guys from the ff games.

[Tobab816]

Jungle specialists...using BIKES?

[Wargamer]

Interesting...did u make this yrself?
Colour schemes?
And maybe u sould look at the scouts in ths Space W codx 4 more ideas.

Yes, with the help of Farseer Iyandes. As for Colour schemes:
Undercoat in Skull White. Upper legs, shoulder pad trims and Backpack stabaslisers (the ball things) are Beastial Brown. All else is Camo Green. Helmets may be either colour (Sergeants have brown helmets, all else green). Veterans/Raptors may have camo-stripes of apropriate colours.

just a thought but why not make the raptors troop choices?  i say this only because "dragon knight" conjures up an image of those jumping guys from the ff games.

You mean have an entire army in Ambush? That's way too beardy!

Jungle specialists...using BIKES?

1) They are not always used in Jungle, so need to be versitile.
2) They're damn good at what they do.
3) Iyandes likes bikes, and so do I.  

Oh, and I forgot some rules. They should be added to the Wargear section of the Codex, just like Bikes, Termie Honours, etc. All of the below are Independent Characters Only.
Deathworld Veteran: Cost: 5pts. The Hero has the Deathworld Veteran rules listed in the first posting.
Raptor Mantle: Cost: 35pts (I think). The Character is immune to Double Toughness.
Raptor: Cost: 10pts. Character may join a Raptor Squad, and therefore may Ambush.

[rastlin]

most of the individual chapters have lots of bonuses yes, but they also have a few penalties, but yours seems to have no drawbacks at all!

i would say something like this: as they are a 'deathworld' force, they have much less use for heavy tanks, thus predators, vindicators, land raiders and whirlwinds are all 0-1 choices.

[Wargamer]

Didn't I say that!? I meant to. Allow me to correct myself...

CODEX SPECIAL RULES:
Limited Armour: Dragon Knights may only take one Heavy Support Tank per army (NOT one of each type!).
Single Minded: Dragon Knights are very self centred, and do not easily take instructions from others. Because of this, The Dragon Knights must have the most valuable hero (ie: The one with the highest Point Cost) in the army.

[TheMightyPikachu]

you mean they always have a FORCE COMMANDER?

eh... that's quite alot...

hmmm.. that heavy support restriction is still pretty heavy

and maybe also make bikes 0-1 (for scouts and marine, so you can get one of each)

perhaps elite veteran marines that wear lighter scout armor, but get great infiltration... wait.. that's a space wolves thing... hmmm

[Wargamer]

No, what I mean is if you have an ally, you have to have a HQ choice that is the most expensive out of both armies.
For Example: Raptors are fighting with Ultramarines. The Ultramarines have a Commander (45pts) with Terminator Honours (+15pts) and a Master Crafted Power Sword (+30pts), giving a total of 90pts. Therefore, the Dragon Knights must have at least one HQ choice that is over 90pts in total.

[Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)]

I like it...  

[feintstar]

Yeah, nice work man. I like the fact that you haven't granted the extra WS that Guardsmen DWVets get. It kind of makes up for the fact that they are Marines who can hide, unlike Guard, who often really need to.

Yeah, I'm down with your list. The one thing I think you might think about is how in hell a Catachan or Kroot Army is going to beat it. Yeah, your men'll cost more, but marines don't die as it is. Add 4+ cover saves to 3+ armour and T4 S4, the capacity to shoot Devestator squads from 12" into jubngle features such that they can't get return fire, and serious danger time in CC, given they are marines, you gotta problem if you're anyone on (the other side of) a Deathworld table.

It's a darn good idea though. Not quite sure how to balance it...

P.S. Are you sure you want raptor blades to be Brutal weapons? (4+ armour best is reserved for Khornate Chainaxes and Ork Choppas, and when you say 'Raptor Blade' I think more of a rapier, or a sabre. How about amking them cheaper, more of them per squad, and making them Rending weapons(6s to hit = wound at AP1)?

[Wargamer]

No, the Raptor Blade is a large Chainsword/small Eviscerator. made out of the teeth of Veloceraptors and coated with adamantium. Often these blades will be poisoned as well. These are not swift, elent blades, they are brutal slayers!

Also, the 10pt thing stays. We've tried them out, and in the hands of a Force Commander against Orks, Eldar and even Chaos they did far too much damage for a meagre 5pt weapon, so they're 10pts from the armoury.

I'm really pleased with all this feedback. If anyone has any suggestions, please tell me them. Also, try them out for me if you can against Catachans or Kroot, and see how they cope (it won't be pretty, mind...).

[feintstar]

Hang on you said Devestators as codex? then they can't get the DWVets upgrade - they really should NOT be able to. That begins to even the score. (guard at least can have heavy weapons with DWVet upgrades, dunno on Kroot...)  Also Demolition charges will help the guard against the marines.

If that's what your Raptor blade is then fair enough. Just a thought, did you want to lift a peice of the wolf codex and have old fantasy cold ones following your guys armound a la Wolves of Fenris? Just lift the stats and capabilities along with the points and fair enough, he he he.

Another thing, in conventional guard armies, if you have a conventional force with DWVets addons, you can't have ambushers. So maybe you should cut out tanks from your force entirely, replace them with... Land speeder Tornados with extra armour?

And how are you going to make the 'best guy on feild' thing work? won't that require you to know your allies' army list before you finish your own? I don't really find that too feasible, and not really necessary.

[Wargamer]

Nowhere did I say that Devastators had the Deathworld Veterans ability. Also, you should note that upgrading Tactical Squads to Deathworld Veterans is optional. You do not actually have to use them, and this means you can, concievably, field a normal SM army (if, for example, you want to take the Dragon Knights as Allies).

As for the "Most Expensive" idea, I included it because their are no "Army Generals" like in WFB. If there were, then Dragon Knights would have to be the General.

As for Tanks... you're only allowed 1 per Army as it is (not including transports). If you consider that tanks need to make a Difficult Terrain Test for every 6" they move, they become less valuable in jungle. However, I see your point. These are additional rules for the Dragon Knights...

Beastmasters: Cost: +15pts. Beastmasters replace the Techmarine entry. For every Beastmaster, you may take a Deathworld Plant. Also, Deathworld Plants will ignore a squad with a Beastmaster in it on a D6 roll of 4+ (roll each turn the Plant wishes to attack the squad).
Reckless: Cost: 5pts. Land Speeder Pilots of the Dragon Knights train in evasive maneuvers, flying below the canopy in order to avoid the airborne predators of Tal'ya'cen. To represent this, any Land Speeder (any varient) with this ability may fly upto 6" per turn "under the canopy". This means they do not count as a Skimmer when shot at (ie: they are not floating above the Canopy). Note that the Land Speeders can take Penetrating Hits while below the Canopy.

Also, make the following alterations:
Elites: Terminators, Terminator Assault Squads, Dreadnoughts (0-1), Veterans (Cost 21pts, but have the "Deathworld Veteran" skills), 0-1 Snipers.
Heavy Support: Devastators, Booby Trap (See Codex Catachans).

0-1 Snipers:

          Cost  Ws  Bs  S  T  W  I  A  Ld  Sv
Sniper   35     4    4   4  4  1   4  1  8   3+
Squad: 1-3 Snipers. All Snipers may act independently, but cannot hold or contest Table Quarters.
Weapons: Sniper Rifle.
SPECIAL RULES:
Deathworld Veterans: Snipers are Deathworld Veterans (see first posting).
Stealth Masters: Snipers get +1 to all Cover Saves.
Deathworld Toxins: The Sniper's bullets are coated with various local poisons and venoms. This allows the snipers to re-roll failed "To Wound" rolls.

[Tobab816]

You do know that the "reckless" ability is pretty much useless.
Skimmers may always move "under the canopy" like ordinary viechles but then they take the difficult terrain tests as normal.

Personally I would say that you reform the rule like this.

Skilled Pilots: Cost: 5pts. Land Speeder Pilots of the Dragon Knights train in evasive maneuvers, flying below the canopy in order to avoid the airborne predators of Tal'ya'cen. To represent this they may re-roll any failed difficult terrain tests).

[Wargamer]

Can they? Alright then, I'll take your rule instead.