News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Cheese  (Read 20305 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline spiderbite

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 843
  • Country: ca
  • Armies: Tyranids
Re: Cheese
« Reply #160 on: July 5, 2007, 11:32:41 PM »
Don't get me wrong - I understand, I just don't necessarily agree.

In that case, it also seems that my efforts (and others as well) are 'wasted' too.

Offline Lomendil

  • Mad Prophet of Commorragh
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10734
  • Country: 00
  • If it's comprehensible, it's obselete
Re: Cheese
« Reply #161 on: July 6, 2007, 12:56:33 AM »
The problem stems in part from this:

Some say "Legal = fair".

Others say "Fair = balanced power", with 'balanced power' being a subjective judgement of equality and how best to get there.

The last element is some saying "Unfluffy = bad".

All of these points have their flaws, since the first is somewhat lazy and disingenous, while the second is impossible to argue as any kind of absolute truth, and the third suffers from the same problem but isn't even engaging with either of the others on common ground.


What it really comes down to is how the player views the competitive element in the game. If they see it as a pure contest for victory, using anything within the rules to get that victory, then they'll go with the first argument. These players view list-building as an integral part of the competitive element and will try to dominate in this aspect as well as the others. They are more likely to be accepting towards tailoring.

However, other players, those who say 'Fair = balanced power', are usually more interested in the competition in individual games rather than that in list-building. They favour games with armies of roughly equal power, and winning through luck and tactical know-how alone, rather than through having a big advantage in their army itself. They consider trying to get an advantage through list-building to be a cheap, and some will consider it a part of the game that ultimately spoils other aspects too, like variety, originality and stylishness. This group will reject list-tailoring as unfair and usually reject the most powerful possible lists too. Their baseline for 'balanced' is usually something arbitrary but considered and reasoned. (Personally, my baseline is this: the most powerful 2k lists for Orks, DE, Necrons, pure WH and pure DH should be the rough guide for 'fair' power. 2k, because any army can cheese up at 1k, and those armies because they have no outstandingly powerful combinations at 2k. So crazy stuff like Siren Bombs and 12 AssCann lists wouldn't make the cut.)

Lastly there are those who consider the RP aspect important and say that armies should be fluffy and be used fluffily. This can never be presented as anything more than personal taste and frankly it's pointless to try otherwise.



None of these views are absolutely right or wrong. There's no harm in trying to convince people to share one's view, arguing as passionately as you like, but ultimately there's no absolute justification for any one of these things. You pretty much just have to accept that they're preferences. In practical terms, the best thing to do is talk to opponents.


...


Another problem comes from people who say "Nothing in the game is overpowered". This is cited either in blind faith in GW game balance from somewhat naive players, or from more canny players, those who say "Everything has a counter". Unfortunately, this last justifcation won't fly with anyone from the 'Fair = balanced power' group because they reject list-tailoring and favour evenly matched games. Again, two ways of seeing one situation, both based on a preference.


« Last Edit: July 6, 2007, 12:57:38 AM by Lomendil »

Offline Sir Sam Vimes

  • Wych
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1128
  • Pontificator Extremis of Goovil
    • http://amrothdin.deviantart.com/
Re: Cheese
« Reply #162 on: July 6, 2007, 01:48:43 AM »
I would like to say that cheesy isn't the exact same thing as unfluffy. Many say this, and I can only understand this as a total lack of imagination.

Heck, you can always make up fluff about stuff. I read a post the other day, from one who explained why Necrons and Tyranids should fight, and afterwards it made alot of sense.

EVERYTHING can be justified by fluff. A marine army with twenty assault cannons and three librarians can be fluffy. I'm going to use my extreme imagination and say why it could be fluffy: ... ... ... the army is the last remnant of it's chapter, having suffered a crushing blow from the enemy, and now all that remains are the heroic psykers and a handful of marines, eager to take up their most potent arms (asscan's) and avenge their brothers.

It's a game where you can make up your own background story, so why should anyone oppose this? If a chapter has six dreadnoughts in their army, fine by me!, as long as the player gives me fluff on why they have it.
If you think about it, Dark Eldar warp beasts are unfluffy as hell to some persons. DE hate Chaos almost more than anything else (except themselves, that is), but still they use monsters from the warp, that can't be anything other than daemons, or creautures influenced by daemons. So the DE use fire to fight fire? (and yes, warp beasts are from the warp, not from the webway)
To some it's reasonable, to other it isn't. It's all about imagination, and if your willing to take one step further, or just rely on what is being written in codicies and WDs.

Offline Full Metal Geneticist

  • Sir Quotesaplenty | No new bastardy suits.
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6113
  • Country: 00
  • Defender of the Text Wall
    • FMG's Angry Rantings
Re: Cheese
« Reply #163 on: July 6, 2007, 06:17:48 AM »
Cheese is going against the spirit of the army merely to gain a tactical advantage in the game.

Look, so we get this straight (I'm just playing Devil's advocate here), is there somewhere in the BGB that states you must (or should) play in the 'spirit of the army'? And for that matter, just who decides what that particular spirit is? Do you decide what is proper or right for me? Do you dictate what models I should purchase? Are you also defining my playing style?

Why yes... I believe we are. This is a game. Played for fun. Which means sportsmanship. Which means we play armies according to a fluff. The joy of that is it provides a challenge as well as produces an army who actually has some sort of background. The boards are littered with bad examples of fluff. Its still fluff. There are some atrocious pieces of fluff lurking about that justify some atrociously unfair and downright non fun armylists.


Also, as far as some designer saying that 'cheese' exists, that's their opinion. If they also say that the Necron codex is the best, does that unequivocally mean it is the best?

3 Falcons laden with harlequins is a plausible units that will count towards cheddar. 3 almost undownable units carrying one of the nastiest close combat units in the game. Armies containing x number of assault cannons are other cheesy armies. We can't deny it does'nt exist since we see them. And there is literally only one army immune to the effects of the x assault cannons/librarian army and thats the necrons and for that a couple of lascannons will counteract the benefit lost.


The point is that not everyone shares the same viewpoint, and the rules of the game allow for a player to select combinations that are powerful but legal. Where is it stated that this shouldn't happen? If you think that 'cheese' exists - then good, gripe about it all day long - just remember not everyone feels that way.

Just because its legal to slide tackle in a game of football does'nt mean you would use such a move when playing your friends in a game. Thats just a great way to lose friends.


It is pernicious nonsense that feeds into a rising wave of irrationality which threatens to overwhelm the hard-won gains of the Enlightenment and the scientific method. We risk as a society slipping back into a state of magical thinking when made-up science passes for rational discourse. I would compare it to witchcraft but honestly that's insulting to witches.

Offline spiderbite

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 843
  • Country: ca
  • Armies: Tyranids
Re: Cheese
« Reply #164 on: July 6, 2007, 07:00:52 AM »
None of these views are absolutely right or wrong. There's no harm in trying to convince people to share one's view, arguing as passionately as you like, but ultimately there's no absolute justification for any one of these things. You pretty much just have to accept that they're preferences. In practical terms, the best thing to do is talk to opponents.

I wholeheartedly agree with this statement. It's a preference/opinion of the player, and that's it. As I've said before, I love using the entire range of my Eldar army and trying new things all the time - what some might call 'fluffy' or 'balanced', I just don't see what the problem is with whatever your choice may be. You're free to view things however you wish.

Offline The OverLord

  • I made the 40K Online logo and all I got was this crappy title
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: 00
Re: Cheese
« Reply #165 on: July 6, 2007, 07:14:51 AM »
No, no! Not another football analogy! Please, for the love of God, please don't bring sports back into this topic!!!

Ahem.

Anyway, what I was going to say what that Lomendil, that was a masterful summing up:

Quote
What it really comes down to is how the player views the competitive element in the game. If they see it as a pure contest for victory, using anything within the rules to get that victory, then they'll go with the first argument. These players view list-building as an integral part of the competitive element and will try to dominate in this aspect as well as the others. They are more likely to be accepting towards tailoring.

However, other players, those who say 'Fair = balanced power', are usually more interested in the competition in individual games rather than that in list-building. They favour games with armies of roughly equal power, and winning through luck and tactical know-how alone, rather than through having a big advantage in their army itself. They consider trying to get an advantage through list-building to be a cheap, and some will consider it a part of the game that ultimately spoils other aspects too, like variety, originality and stylishness. This group will reject list-tailoring as unfair and usually reject the most powerful possible lists too. Their baseline for 'balanced' is usually something arbitrary but considered and reasoned. (Personally, my baseline is this: the most powerful 2k lists for Orks, DE, Necrons, pure WH and pure DH should be the rough guide for 'fair' power. 2k, because any army can cheese up at 1k, and those armies because they have no outstandingly powerful combinations at 2k. So crazy stuff like Siren Bombs and 12 AssCann lists wouldn't make the cut.)

Lastly there are those who consider the RP aspect important and say that armies should be fluffy and be used fluffily. This can never be presented as anything more than personal taste and frankly it's pointless to try otherwise

So, for all you members who have just ploughed your way through nine pages of debate, I would point this post out as to the current status. In fact, it's actually a bit of a stand off, really.

Come to think of it, I would be interested to know if this debate is split between the 'Competitive' and 'Balanced' camps. Do all those who run a 'Competitive' or 'Tournament' list feel that there is no 'cheese' and do all those who run a 'Balanced' or 'Friendly' list think that 'cheese' exists?

Answers on a postcard please...

- Rogue Trader (Hereticus Diabolus)
'I've never seen any GW employee turn away anyone who had money no matter how old they were.  If a baby could say "wraithlord" and had a fifty in his hand it would get a wraithlord.'
- Yuenglingdragon, April 21, 2007, 05:04:07 PM

'One might try to argue that, but then one would be wrong.'
- Hymirl, February 27, 2007, 03:27:30 PM

GW's current motto: "GW: We Don't Give A FAQ"
- Hymirl. October 13th, 2008, 07:53:18 PM

Offline Ianos Stormbringer

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 219
  • Always and never
Re: Cheese
« Reply #166 on: July 6, 2007, 07:25:04 AM »
@The Full Metal Geneticist: I really won’t go on analyzing that ass.cannon spam and harlies falcons are totally defeatable if only one really wants to do so instead of ranting. You said this is about fun and sportsmanship and fluff, how can you dictate what is fluffy or not and how can you insist that utterly competitive and ruthless is not fun?
I have fun when my best friend shows up for a game and GUARANTEES me that he will wipe my army out with no remorse and extreme prejudice. I don’t have fun when he shows up with an incoherent force that has wasted points and actions in options that don’t fit the army. Like my Tau buddy showing up with a Mech Tau list and 20ish kroot in it just so that it can loose coherency and waste points while instead my army maintains full mobility despite the fact that I also have removed a serpent and added some bikes and as a result defeat him 9 times out of 10!
I have fun when somebody shows up with 15 destroyers to simply instankill my Eldar and destroy all my tanks and yet somehow my “underpowered” list based on a mix of Eldar choices phases him out.  I also have extreme fun when someone shows up with nidzilla and we play recon! Yay, really cheese now he simply can’t win if only I delay him for a turn or two and get across with some units. And you know when I have real fun? When everyone thinks that falcons with harlies are the UBERKILLYCHEEZORSOF DOOM1!!1 only to be crushed by spiders, hawks and guardians and their hidden merits that people never seem to realize and fear.


P.S. regarding football, if you have agreed on no tackles then it is like agreeing on mission parameters on 40k. However it would be downright unfair to invite me to an open soccer match and then insist on a penalty just because I tackled you. Also the accurate comparison to 40k cheese and other sports relies in the comparison of strategies (moves, formations, doctrines etc.) and units (e.g. players, pieces, squads etc.). But strangely even in VERY friendly amateur games I have never encountered the cheese mentality. From personal experience, since I play 5x5 soccer as I have previously described, and after playing with a multitude of opponents, both people I know and people I don’t NONE have ever said, “hey, that striker of yours is cheesy, put him on defense or replace him” they all just played the game!
The strands of fate being pulled, foresight brings more gifts, treasures with pain, knowledge with strife and the laws of anarchy. For when the jurney ends, and the stardust settles, all that lies in the mirror of infinity is thyself.

Offline kerg

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Cheese
« Reply #167 on: July 6, 2007, 02:46:40 PM »
P.S. regarding football, if you have agreed on no tackles then it is like agreeing on mission parameters on 40k. However it would be downright unfair to invite me to an open soccer match and then insist on a penalty just because I tackled you.

Issue is when player A might be used to playing soccer with his group of friends where they don't tackle (for whatever reason) but, player B does.  Is tackling in the rules and legal?  Yes but, for player A's past history, he knows it is legal but, he just doesn't play that way so, he might be a little miffed that B pulled this out.  Then, in turn, player B is mad at player A because, it's in the rules so what are you complaining about.

Same thing goes for 40K.  You have 2 groups of people that play different ways and neither one is really wrong but, both perceive each other to be off base in some way.

Are there combinations of units that potentially increase your chances of winning?   Of course there are, that is why you see tons of asscans or 2 orb'd Necron armies or any other number of common tactics.  (They are out there... they aren't hard to pick up on).  If you are a powergamer, you just can't look me in the eye and tell me this is a fluff reason.  Just tell me that it gives you the best chance to win.  Is it wrong?  No but, just realize that some people will turn up an eyebrow towards you because they don't necessarily like playing that way.

If you like playing fluff or non-power gaming, you just have to accept the fact that some people don't like playing that way.  Doesn't make them wrong just a different style.  (I'm in this group.. I designed a Space Marine army I'm going to first play down in Chicago but, there are only 3 assault cannons.   Am I limiting myself?  Probably but, I just didn't want to play with alot of assault cannons because I find it unoriginal but, my own opinion)

Only way you could ever really get around it is to split the 2 groups up to powergamer/non-powergamer at the tournament by going against commonly accepted 'power gaming' tactics.

Offline The OverLord

  • I made the 40K Online logo and all I got was this crappy title
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: 00
Re: Cheese
« Reply #168 on: July 6, 2007, 06:21:41 PM »
Didn't I say no more sports analogies? Didn't I say that? Is anyone even listening to me!? (Ok, don't answer that ...  ;))

Seriously, I think after nine pages, we've successfully boiled the debate down into two basic camps; those players who like to play 'competitive' (in my definition, 'cheesy') lists and those who play non-competitive (in my definition 'non-cheesy') lists.

Matching two like-minded players makes for a 'balanced' game, since both know that their opponent will take a list similar to theirs.

Matching a player with a 'competitive' list against a player with a 'non-competitive' list outside of Tournaments (where it's generally considered acceptable) results in an imbalanced game.

I believe that players with a 'non-competitive' list are in the majority, so the onus is on a player with a 'competitive' list to establish their playing style within their group of friends/gaming store/whatever at the earliest opportunity so that everybody knows where they stand.

Any takers for/against this theory? (Go on, disagree ... you know you want to  ;))

- Rogue Trader (Hereticus Diabolus)
'I've never seen any GW employee turn away anyone who had money no matter how old they were.  If a baby could say "wraithlord" and had a fifty in his hand it would get a wraithlord.'
- Yuenglingdragon, April 21, 2007, 05:04:07 PM

'One might try to argue that, but then one would be wrong.'
- Hymirl, February 27, 2007, 03:27:30 PM

GW's current motto: "GW: We Don't Give A FAQ"
- Hymirl. October 13th, 2008, 07:53:18 PM

Offline spiderbite

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 843
  • Country: ca
  • Armies: Tyranids
Re: Cheese
« Reply #169 on: July 6, 2007, 06:55:35 PM »
Seriously, I think after nine pages, we've successfully boiled the debate down into two basic camps; those players who like to play 'competitive' (in my definition, 'cheesy') lists and those who play non-competitive (in my definition 'non-cheesy') lists.

I play non-competitive, but I don't believe in the 'fromage'. Do I get my own category?

Offline The OverLord

  • I made the 40K Online logo and all I got was this crappy title
  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: 00
Re: Cheese
« Reply #170 on: July 6, 2007, 07:38:15 PM »
Quote
I play non-competitive, but I don't believe in the 'fromage'. Do I get my own category?

No, but you can have your own sub-category. What about; 'Players who play 'non-competitive' lists but are experienced and happy enough to take on all-comers'.

What about that?

- Rogue Trader (Hereticus Diabolus)
'I've never seen any GW employee turn away anyone who had money no matter how old they were.  If a baby could say "wraithlord" and had a fifty in his hand it would get a wraithlord.'
- Yuenglingdragon, April 21, 2007, 05:04:07 PM

'One might try to argue that, but then one would be wrong.'
- Hymirl, February 27, 2007, 03:27:30 PM

GW's current motto: "GW: We Don't Give A FAQ"
- Hymirl. October 13th, 2008, 07:53:18 PM

Offline spiderbite

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 843
  • Country: ca
  • Armies: Tyranids
Re: Cheese
« Reply #171 on: July 6, 2007, 08:36:59 PM »
Quote
I play non-competitive, but I don't believe in the 'fromage'. Do I get my own category?

No, but you can have your own sub-category. What about; 'Players who play 'non-competitive' lists but are experienced and happy enough to take on all-comers'.

What about that?

- Rogue Trader (Hereticus Diabolus)

Thanks, I love it.

Offline Lomendil

  • Mad Prophet of Commorragh
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10734
  • Country: 00
  • If it's comprehensible, it's obselete
Re: Cheese
« Reply #172 on: July 6, 2007, 09:31:27 PM »
Shame we all don't have better language for all this, really. There's something wrong with most of the words that get used.

'Cheese' and 'non-cheese' are perjorative and generate bad reactions just in themselves - they're virtually 'fighting words' for some players.

From the other side, 'competitive' is a bit of a big-up and euphemism rolled into one, while 'non-competitive' is patronizing, and both are rather inaccurate. Why? Because players who like sides to be balanced in power can be just as competitive as the other side - it's just that their focus on what should make up the competitive element is different. I believe the term does originate from tournament play, that being competitive play, but it's used more widely now for any powergaming list.

Even 'powergaming', a basically neutral term, doesn't entirely work, since powergaming doesn't guarantee imbalance (imbalance according to the 'Fair = Balanced Power' point of view). Hell, Orks and Dark Eldar basically need to be powergamed to be on even footing with the other Codexes.

'Balanced' suffers from a different problem, being that it has two distinct meanings. And, typically, there's always people willing to get fired up and hold pissing contests over whether it means 'tactically well-rounded' or 'not overpowered'.




Unfortunately I have no idea what terms would be better than these, and there's small chance of new words catching on anyway.

But at least pointing out the problem is a good start. Spread awareness and all that amphetamine parrot. But mainly because I love to gripe.  :P :P ;)

Offline Ianos Stormbringer

  • Junior Member
  • **
  • Posts: 219
  • Always and never
Re: Cheese
« Reply #173 on: July 13, 2007, 04:01:15 AM »
Life isn’t fair, games aren’t also. There is no single game in the world that is completely balanced and that is simply a result of universal entropy and nothing can be done about this. There is also no other competition than 40k in which your opponent forces you into playing worse and with less power. Every other game is about survival of the fittest within the boundaries of rules.
   Only in 40k does the phenomenon of your opponent playing referee arises. To me it is absolutely ridiculous especially when the most gripers are the ones that essentially cause the most of imbalance in the game by refusing to select any other race or style but MEQ. It really has to end some day and I think GW has realized that and maybe has acted a bit strongly, but hey, they have realized it and that’s a good thing.
The strands of fate being pulled, foresight brings more gifts, treasures with pain, knowledge with strife and the laws of anarchy. For when the jurney ends, and the stardust settles, all that lies in the mirror of infinity is thyself.

Offline Lazarus

  • Infinity Circuit - The Voice of Reason
  • Ancient
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10258
  • Country: us
  • Armies: Space Wolves & Imperial Guard
Re: Cheese
« Reply #174 on: July 13, 2007, 06:18:30 AM »
Posted by: Ianos Stormbringer

Quote
There is no single game in the world that is completely balanced and that is simply a result of universal entropy and nothing can be done about this.

Nothing needs to be "perfectly" balanced. What we are looking for is "reasonably balanced".

If GW had done a better job over the years of making the lists balance to each other we wouldn't be in the situation that we are in. Hopefully, they'll continue to work on it...

Lazarus.
"If someone used the ridiculous cover saves rule on me I'd probably punch him in the face. If he's still standing he would be entitled to punch me in the face, take my army, and my woman if he can. This is known as the Conan rule of play, and is not forbidden in the core rules and encourages serious amounts of sportsmanship." - Carniflex

Offline [dixon]

  • I pretend to be other users
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7191
  • BANNED
Re: Cheese
« Reply #175 on: July 13, 2007, 09:50:35 AM »
And to be honest, GW's failure to FAQ things or make updated lists readily available (Who really wants to buy 4 20 dollar Codexes over the 5 years a Codex is in print?  I guess GW thinks that Chaos players do.  But not enough to tell them this.) doesn't really help the game either.  Which is where an awful lot of 'playing referee' comes in.
I pretended to be other members, and finally got BANNED

 


Powered by EzPortal