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Author Topic: Starcannon Vs Heavy Bolter or Plasma Cannon (Split From New Eldar Codex)  (Read 6609 times)

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Offline Raven Nevermore

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you digging yourself a grave, just so you know.

now to clear things up, it might be easier to actually state again (even if it is repeating yourself) why you want to compare the starcannon to the heavy bolter, being two weapons for completley different jobs.

that might solve some problems and be less inflamitory than "ive proven my point you can't prove me wrong" when people can't see the point you state to have made.


Offline -Makenshi-

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Makenshi....
Quote
My past post already has given prove of my claims....let people read it for themselves.


Thats exactly right, I have already proven it,

No, you have stated an opinion. One I and TOS disagree with. You have not refuted our arguments about why your own personal decision to comapre it to a Heavy Bolter is invalid flawed. You are entitled to yuor opinion, we are entitled to challenge it.

and also proven people can compare the star cannon to any weapon they so chose

No, you stated that. And they can compare it to anything they want, that doesn't make it an accurate comparison of a Starcannon against a similar weapon.

..........Why are you taking it out of context though is my question ?

How is it taken out of context?

But Where is the Actual claim I have proved it otherwise Makenshi

I quoted it above.

....Its not there because it does not exist. To say otherwise by you, is an untrue statement. Prove it, thats what you are basing your debate on.....that does not prove anything, but exactly what I have been saying all along.

Nope, you haven't proven anything, merely made statements and opinions based on little to no facts, logic and reasoning that myself and TOS have at least challenged.

  Its really......Because you want to make it personal, because you feel I offended you personally.....Thos e are just your feelings, and your opinions though. Makenshi. And you are wrong, on both accounts.

Ignoring the fact I was arguing this exact same position before you attacked me and it became more personal of course.

How am I wrong? You have offended me and TOS, whether you meant to or not and you have, once gain, made blanket statements backed up by no logic or reasoning whatsoever.

Added, later.....Makenshi. .....I have already given you reasons why I personally compare the star cannon  to the  heavy bolter......Am I not free to chose what weapon I wish to compare it to ? I have never said anyone could not do the same....never.

As I said, me and TOS are not saying you can't, we are saying compairng it to a Heavy Bolter to find it's effectiveness and judge it's balance is a flawed argument as they are not designed for the same thing. We have challenged your opinion and claim with logic and you have refused point blank to defend your position beyond 'read what I said' and deflecting attention back to us.

EDIT - Aysh, horrendous typos...

~MTWC
« Last Edit: June 5, 2006, 01:33:49 AM by - Makenshi - »
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Offline Redlion

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You are making claims I never made though....I never said you could not compare the star cannon to the plasma cannon, to say otherwise is untrue.......thats what your claim is.


What I stated,  why I personally compare the star cannon to the heavy bolter is because I use  the star cannon mainly in my army as anti infantry, well I consider the heavy bolter mainly as anti infantry as well....you are free to disagree with my logic on that as you wish....But to say my comparison is flawed and inaccurate is personally attacking me, how is my logic flawed in my personal comparison on a weapon I chose. How ? TOS brought up the plasma can of worms, not me.....but another reason I personally compare the star cannon to the heavy bolter.....Is because most marine armies don't even use one. They use heavy bolters, and assault cannons. The Plasma cannon is mainly for MC's and some vehicles, but its not really necessary.....Anoth er reason I personally compare the heavy bolter to the star cannon, is because the heavy bolter can also at least glance most vehicles side........Now if you want to call my logic flawed and say my comparisons are wrong based on your opinion, but TOS, Nor you said it was based on your opinions......It was factual in your minds.....In other words, you, nor he ever said my comparison was flawed or wrong in ya'll's opinion......It was a personal attack......just stating I was dead wrong.....

I pesonally think the logic why I chose to do the comparison between the star cannon vs the heavy bolter is the better choice, at least it is for me......You however, and TOS may compare it to the plasma cannon if you wish, and I never said otherwise......Does that clear it up enough.

Because that is basically really all I ever said.

Offline -Makenshi-

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You are making claims I never made though....I never said you could not compare the star cannon to the plasma cannon, to say otherwise is untrue.......thats what your claim is.

No, my claim is that you deny your opinion is flawed (which, if you disagree with you should challenge rather than ignore).

What I stated,  why I personally compare the star cannon to the heavy bolter is because I use  the star cannon mainly in my army as anti infantry, well I consider the heavy bolter mainly as anti infantry as well

Then you aren't playign to teh Starcannon's strengths. it is an anti-Heavy Infantry and light tank weapon, use it how you want but that is it's purpose and what it is best at killing. And you didn;t state that, your claim was the you chose the Heavy Bolter as it was more common than the Plasma Cannon, so you have contradicted yourself.

....you are free to disagree with my logic on that as you wish....But to say my comparison is flawed and inaccurate is personally attacking me,

No, as we are not attacking you we are challenging your opinion, and have given perfectly reasonable explainatiosn that you have yet to challenge beyond repeating your initial claim or telling us to read it.

how is my logic flawed in my personal comparison on a weapon I chose. How ?

We have gone over this several times, you want to compare a Starcannon's effectivenss then compare it to a weapon intended for the same role, as otheriwse it is not accurately portrayign it's capabilities.

TOS brought up the plasma can of worms, not me.....

And rightlyfull so as I have said before.

but another reason I personally compare the star cannon to the heavy bolter.....Is because most marine armies don't even use one.

That does not back up your claim at all for reasons I have stated above and previously. Want to judge whetehr the Starcannon is balanced? They compare it to similar weapons, not weapons equally numerous.

They use heavy bolters, and assault cannons. The Plasma cannon is mainly for MC's and some vehicles, but its not really necessary

No, it's just mostly considered ineffective for it's points cost and (for infantry) the risk of overheating.

.....Another reason I personally compare the heavy bolter to the star cannon, is because the heavy bolter can also at least glance most vehicles side

So can a Plasma Cannon, your point?

.......Now if you want to call my logic flawed and say my comparisons are wrong based on your opinion, but TOS, Nor you said it was based on your opinions

It isn't though. It is based on logic and reaosnign which you have not even attempted to directly refute.

......It was factual in your minds.....In other words, you, nor he ever said my comparison was flawed or wrong in ya'll's opinion......It was a personal attack......just stating I was dead wrong.....

We have stated it is flawed and we have backed up our arguments, somethign you have not done or have simply repeated after we have subsequently pointed out the holes in your 'back up's.

I pesonally think the logic why I chose to do the comparison between the star cannon vs the heavy bolter is the better choice

Well I don;t for reasons I have said before and will likely say again.

at least it is for me......You however, and TOS may compare it to the plasma cannon if you wish, and I never said otherwise......Does that clear it up enough.

Doesn;t change my stance at all, as the Plasma Cannon is the logical comparison for hwop good the Starcannon is, and you have doen nothing to refute our claims while we (or at least I) have repeatedly done so to yours, with you just repeating yourself.

Because that is basically really all I ever said.

And that is the problem, you have not challenged our refutations, only tried to back up your argument, which we have then refuted again.

~MTWC
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Offline TheOnlySpiral

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You are making claims I never made though....I never said you could not compare the star cannon to the plasma cannon, to say otherwise is untrue.......thats what your claim is.
And we never said you said that.  To put it bluntly our point is that while your comparison was done well, overall it has no substance and you are comparing two very very diferent weapons. A simaler COmparison would be the Bright Lance to the Autocannon.  Not Assault Cannon...the old Auto-Cannon.

But to say my comparison is flawed and inaccurate is personally attacking me,
From a certain point of veiw though, it is.  We're not attacking you as a person.  Not your moral fiber nor your deeds in the world.  But we don't see your Comparison as accurate.  It is an opinion on the facts you presented.  We never made the same claims about you, that you made about us.  Please don't take this the wrong way...but aren't you taking this a little hard?

TOS brought up the plasma can of worms, not me.....
Yes I did.  Trying to find a fair comparison. I still don't feel youer comparison has any value, as it lacks context.

but another reason I personally compare the star cannon to the heavy bolter.....Is because most marine armies don't even use one. They use heavy bolters, and assault cannons. The Plasma cannon is mainly for MC's and some vehicles, but its not really necessary
Depends on the army.  It all depends on the army.  I have a Dark Angels army with 5 Plasma Cannons.  It lacks a single Heavy Bolter or Assault Cannon.  Don't go here.  It's not relevant when comparing the statistical kill rates of two weapons.

Another reason I personally compare the heavy bolter to the star cannon, is because the heavy bolter can also at least glance most vehicles side
And?

Now if you want to call my logic flawed and say my comparisons are wrong based on your opinion, but TOS, Nor you said it was based on your opinions......It was factual in your minds.....In other words, you, nor he ever said my comparison was flawed or wrong in ya'll's opinion......It was a personal attack......just stating I was dead wrong.....
  It wasn't a personal attack.  It wasn't a judgement on you, you don't have to take it personally.  There is just no question in my mind that your comparison only goes halfway to presenting the facts.  A point (among others) that you have continued to fail to refute. 
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Offline Redlion

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Well, ya'll wanted to know why I compared the star cannon to the heavy bolter. I have given my reasons why I personally do.......What are ya'lls for comparing it to the plasma cannon ? Lets see which is more logical.
If you disagree fine with me, But a comparison vs weapons based on opinions, is no reason to start attacking me personally Makenshi, nor TOS, Rightly so was your response to that ? another personal attack, and condoning even more.

If you want to compare the plasma cannon to the star cannon, be my guess, I won't though, but ya'll are free to. I have never stated otherwise, and my personal comparison is not flawed, because I can compare it to the heavy bolter if I chose to, which I do. I'll let others decide for themselves as well which is the more logical choice.....but it is still their personal choice, not yours, nor TOS's.

I rest my case......Because thats all I ever said....people can read through all these posts, and determine who started what, I was just responding to ya'lls posts and attacks.

Taking hard TOS, nah, not really, but it appears Makenshi is.

Offline Dryad

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And for the record, being 'part of the fluff' is not a valid argument, otherwise we SMurf players could claim we deserve higher stats ;).

~MTWC

Marines do have higher stats, and I do think you deserve them. I think the armor and stats are very fitting to genetically engineered 8 foot tall super humans. I love the Marine fluff, I wouldn't touch it with a 20 foot pole!

I wouldn't throw my army away if the SC dropped to Heavy 2. I think its just really sweet that the Eldar can let their egos shine in the form of their weaponry. I am looking forward to seeing other weapons come more in to play as well, but in the end, I still want to open that new codex and say, "yup. these are the best darn wespons in the galaxy". I would take a 5+ save on all my guys any day just to see the weapons stay unstoppable. Thats Eldar for ya... thats why I love them.

And for the record, changing lists for the opponents you are playing is not powergaming. The whole point of have having a variety of units is for being able to handle different situations appropriatley. So if I take Starcannons versus a marine player, and then Scatter lasers against a Nids player that makes me a powergamer? Sorry buddy, maybe you've just had too many people pull chesse lists on you before... In my world neighbourhood, we just refer to list planning as being a smart gamer!

Offline mebtv

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Actually, I've to say, that I can understand both sides' point of view, even as I would compare the Sc rather to the PC than to the HB.

From what I use it the SC for, it is what I use the HB for in my BT force. The SC is my weapon of choice to deal with ANY infantry I face. True, its stats are meant to be anti-heavy-infantry and I use it in that way everytime I'm able to do it. But given the not so much lower relative costs of our other anti-lesser-infantry-type weapons I stick to use the SC also on those weaker troops, since I don't know for sure that I'll face only 5+ save troops.

I don't regularily use the PC in my BT force for this role for several reasons. But if I use it, I stick to hunt heavy infantry with it for the simple reason that I feel the relative costs between a HB and a PC in tac squads. I even use HBs to attack other MEqs simply for the fact that it is cheap. I don't feel it if I buy a HB or leave the heavy weapon slot open.

On the other hand I know for pretty sure the difference if I buy a shuricannon or leave it away. And if I'm buying stuff for high costs, I can spend real and get a real advantage. Call it power gaming if you like, I call it economic.

But that whole point of choice does only exists because of the current stats of the SC. It fills the same role as the HB since it has the same high number of shots. That's all the HB is about: a high number of shots. What it makes an anti-light-infantry weapon is its relatively low AP (at least if you compare it to the SC). But I view this as a limitation only, not as a defining matter per se. The SC leaves away this limitation.

But to me it is still our PC, since this is the weapon it is derived from. It's current stats simply don't refelct that any more. In last edition they did, since you could place the template of the PC as you wanted. But know it has got its killing factor greatly reduced.

By lowering the number of shots - if they do this, AFAWK there is no hard proof of this rumour - GW would bring the SC back to it's purposed role. And that's not the one doubling as a HB as it does ATM.

Will this change if it should come change the heavy weapons I usually field: Yes, it will for sure. But I field it this way ATM since it is the best weapon capable of dealing with any infantry by costing not too much more than our other choices in this category which perform worse. ATM the SC is a no-brainer choice for defeating all infantry.

I dearly hope that GW will have removed this no-brainer from our lists of options even if I have to break off any SCs from my models.

IMO there is no cheese in our lists, there is only overuse due to the two extremes of effective options and complete crap. As long as there are no decent alternatives why would we choose an alternative: the only viable reason to do so I see is "because other players will cry cheese if you don't choose the other stuff". The small number of MEq players out there which lament over the fact that the SC eats through their troops, by killing one or two marines per turn from turn two on forget that this weapon is carried by a choice which usually does nothing else except bringing this weapon to bear. BTW, the only lamenting over the SC I've heard in person was not about 3 shots or not overheating or killing up to three marines per turn, it was only about being able to pack it into every slot except HQ and elite (wouldn't be used anyway since we need the aspect choices here). And since we only have got two really viable choices for the heavy weapon slots (BL and SC) most of our opponents face mainly casultaties to this two weapons. You won't expect anything else from an anti-tank weapon than destroying tanks, but to see a anti-heavy-infantry weapon mowe through your basic troops as well as your anti-light-infantry weapons would do is a major pain.

Offline Draza

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The starcannons can be compared to either a plasma cannon or a heavy bolter. For me, I like to compare it to a heavy bolter in most situations. In an Eldar vs MEQ environment, the heavy bolter and starcannon perform the same roles, they destroy elite infantry. Both fire 3 shots, both wound on a 2+ and both will ignore armour (unless the HB is aimed at Scopions, Spiders, Jetbikes or Wraithguard). Both weapons are very effective and a couple of each could wipe out a recipical squad. Of course the starcannon has better strength and AP value, but this is off-set by it's high points cost, lower average ballistic skill of the users and lack of multiple starcannons in the same infantry squad (Reapers have reaper launchers, not starcannons. Devastators can have 4 heavy bolters if they choose). Infantry squad is bolded, since you can take multiple starcannons in vehicle squadrons. In MEQ vs Eldar games (which would be the Eldars most common foe), the heavy bolter is the best comparison. Both will be doing the same type of damage to the enemy with similiar dice rolls. Since I play Eldar, the heavy bolter will always be my equivalent to my starcannon on the battlefield.
In general, you could compare it to a plasma cannon. When it comes to shooting at monstrous creatures etc, the starcannon vs plasma cannon scenerio is a better fit, since heavy bolters are ill fit to shoot at such targets without divine guidance ;).
In the starcannon vs plasma cannon debate, it should be noted that plasma cannons have been nerfed in 4th edition. In 3rd edition, plasma cannons were the equal or better than starcannons in most situations. A squad could stack 4 blast templates at a time, easily being able to wipe out a squad in a single round of shooting. Thats since been changed. Due to GW's stalling of the Eldar codex until this year, we've had to put up with lots of useless weapons and units, but at the same time got to use the better one's. The starcannon being unchanged (and subsquently being able to fire as a secondary weapon) has made it a stand out weapon. Definetly better than plasma cannons, although as noted this wasn't the case back in third edition.

If we're talking about comparisons, I'd love to hear the comparisons between the heavy bolter and shuriken cannon. The shuriken cannon is the most overpriced heavy weapon in the game. It is cheaper to fit 2 HB sponsons on a Predator than a single Shuriken cannon on a Falcon

As for Eldar players complaining, we have a right. Some things have to be stood up for, and many points have to be argued. It is very easy for Marines to say we're whining when they're given half the shelf, rending weapons and just an overall upgrade to everything in the codex (Librarians don't even have to purchase a psychic hood). Eldar players deserve the right to have the same treatment for their codex, which I hope they do. This codex is make or break time for Eldar. Making it too good or too crap could ruin the army for years to come.

Quote
I wouldn't throw my army away if the SC dropped to Heavy 2.
I'm the same. I don't really care what they do with the weapon, I rarely take it unless I'm USF. What I care about is the aspect warriors

Offline mebtv

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The only thing "flawed" with comparing a SC to a HB is that it is like a comparison of a Ferrari to a Trabant. A cheetah might outrun the Ferrari, while the Trabant is faster than a snail. But still the Ferrari is not worse than the Trabant, since it has lost against the cheetah.

If you want to compare two weapons you should at least aim it at the same target for comparison.

But this flaw is countered by the SC still being our best weapon for lower grade infantry, too, as I've stated before.

Offline Roy

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OMG. This has to be one of the most retarded discussions I've seen.

Who cares what people like to compare? You can compare a Starcannon with a Heavy bolter, sure. You can compare a railgun to a lasgun if you like.

So bloody what?

Hnnngghhh!

Offline Sheepz

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Just dropping my 2 cents in. I am a Marine player. I have called for the Starcannon to be nerfed (Either to S5 AP2, or S6 AP3), but I am not a whiner. I've beaten lists packed with Starcannons with my Marines.

Anyway...

The Comparision between a Heavy Bolter and Starcannon is, IMO, silly. The only thing they have in common is Marines kill Eldar on a 2+ with a Heavy Bolter, and Eldar kill Marines one a 2+ with a Starcannon. Also, they have 3 shots.

The Heavy Bolter kills infantry. It can't scratch Vehicles or Heavy Infantry, really.
The Starcannon is built to kill Heavy Infantry and light Vehicles. It's AP2, so it cuts through Heavy Infantry and glances Speeders and Raiders and Trukks 50% of the time. T6 is the acceptable norm for Monsterous creatures (Carnifex, Tyrant, etc). It's the "average." It wounds the "average" monsterous creature on a 4+ and usually ignores it's save.
The Scatter Laser, IMO, is built for taking down Infantry, like the Heavy Bolter. The Starcannon is built for Heavy Infantry, Light Vehicles and gribblies. Hench I would compare it more to the Plasma Cannon.

I'm not saying anything's wrong with toting Starcannons or anything, I would just say there are more similarties to an Imperial Plasma Weapon (Strength, AP, and the shots make up for no Blast, and combat role), than a Heavy Bolter.

Offline pastrami hernandez

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This really doesn't have anything to do with whining, there is a useful and intelligent debate to be had on this issue. 

No one actually is saying the Heavy Bolter and Starcannon have comparable roles in general.  The point of the comparison is to show that, as a marine player facing an eldar army, your heavy bolters (of which most players have a few, just because they're cheap) can wreak the same havoc on the eldar army as the starcannon wreaks on your army.  Therefore the presence of the starcannon in its current form doesn't give an inherent advantage to the eldar player.  It's got a couple advantages - move and shoot, effective against monstrous creatures (N/A vs. marines), but we pay dearly for them, so problem solved.

My question to those who think it needs to be nerfed:
what aspect, exactly, of the starcannon do you think is overpowered?

1) The ability to kill power armored troops easily?
   -  This is where the heavy bolter comparison comes into play.

2) The fact that it is versatile for use against many different troops or creatures?
  -  ok, sure, but it's really expensive.

3) The fact that multiple weapons used together simply do too much damage?
  -  powergaming with it is a problem, but nerfing the weapon itself, I believe will only encourage this.  People who powergame will just field more of them, whereas people that use them sparingly will stop using them.  I say make them less available, rather than nerfed stat-wise.

4)  Other
  -  please comment.

Take part in a rules debate.  You'll make new friends and enemies, and there's no better way to increase your post count!!!

Offline theriddles

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it's a great gun. it doesn't need to be changed. comparing it to the heavy bolter is silly and pointless. while a heavy bolter mows down guardians and lightly armoured aspect warriors (which dammit, it should, it fires mini nuclear warheads ffs), a starcannon will kill all infantry units, space marine, guardian, gaunt, fire warrior with the same ease and efficiency.

face it, the starcannon is a better gun than the heavy bolter, no argument. and it should be, because it's more expensive as a gun upgrade.

the heavy bolter is a good solid gun. it kills light infantry. the starcannon kills heavy infantry. it just so happens that there are more heavy infantry armies in the game so the starcannon gets to shine more.

the whining from marine players tend to be players who haven't discovered what cover is yet. and any eldar player worth his salt cannot complain about the heavy bolter at all. if you're going to take guardian squads, you should be expecting them to die. to p[revent this they should be getting conceal or be in cover. either way the ap means jack.

the reason you see so many starcannon heavy lists is i.) the prevlance of meq lists: marines and csm and ii.) that fact that our supposedly light infantry guns lack range (shurican cannon) or are unreliable (scatter laser).

the heavy bolter is a better weapon than the shurican cannon, the starcannon is better than the plasma cannon. nuff said.
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Offline srintuar

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Hrm, my main objection to a Str6 Heavy 2 starcannon is when you compare it to a plasma pistol.

Now, the fact that a huge vehicle mounted cannon puts out less firepower than a tiny pistol is sortof
discongruous in my opinion.


I'd prefer for GW to set the price of starcannons to what they think is appropriate for their current
context of other heavy weapons choices, rather than make a weaker version of the weapon.

For a given point cost, and a given field of alternatives, it should be quite possible to make
a variety of balanced weapon choices for eldar players, rather than have all sane players choosing
one gun only.

Some would argue that the reason the starcannon is so popular has more to do with the alternatives
being so poor than anything else.


Offline theriddles

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taking them away from troops choices and allowing them only on war walkers, wraithlord and tanks would go a LONG way to neutralising the abuse of them.
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Offline Redlion

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My debate wasn't about how good of a weapon the star cannon is, ya'll.

My debate was in response to people quoting me personally, and then attacking me personally, I think I proved my points already.....and the past posts speak for themselves, Makenshi, and TOS, got offended by assumptions they made, about my posting of their army lists, which does not include a Plasma cannon, Which actually proved a logical point of mine....not all space marines armies have nor even need the plasma cannon.....based on their own 2 armies.......they assumed I was calling them powergamers.....whi ch really is laughable, I think some of you already know, I don't imply things, If I wanted to say they were power gamers, I would have stated it.....Its funny though, because they assumed thats what I meant and got all offended....this was after they already both had personally attacked me, then they assumed I implied something, which clearly is not there, all I can say is if they aren't powergamers......wh y were they so offended ? Why did they assume something that was not there..( the reason is to make it look like I was attacking them, to cover up their own previous personal attacks on me) ....ya'll can check past posts and be the judge of it.......I never attacked either one personally, however, both repeatedly attacked me, numerous times, which their very own posts clearly point out.

Another reason they got mad, is because I also showed they knew each other, from having almost identical armies.....their posts in space marines ST&AL, proves it....so naturally Makenshi would side with TOS, over me, whether right or wrong..... Which I personally think is wrong, then they tried to bully me, because of their number of posts, and Makenshi's  Mod, ranking..Well I am not wrong....I will defend myself, regardless who it is attacking me. I'm Irish, maybe that explains it better for you.

I'm not angry, They can believe or assume anything they wish, but if they personally attack me, I will defend myself.
« Last Edit: June 5, 2006, 06:48:41 PM by Redlion »

Offline Sheepz

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This really doesn't have anything to do with whining, there is a useful and intelligent debate to be had on this issue. 

No one actually is saying the Heavy Bolter and Starcannon have comparable roles in general.  The point of the comparison is to show that, as a marine player facing an eldar army, your heavy bolters (of which most players have a few, just because they're cheap) can wreak the same havoc on the eldar army as the starcannon wreaks on your army.  Therefore the presence of the starcannon in its current form doesn't give an inherent advantage to the eldar player.  It's got a couple advantages - move and shoot, effective against monstrous creatures (N/A vs. marines), but we pay dearly for them, so problem solved.

My question to those who think it needs to be nerfed:
what aspect, exactly, of the starcannon do you think is overpowered?

1) The ability to kill power armored troops easily?
   -  This is where the heavy bolter comparison comes into play.

2) The fact that it is versatile for use against many different troops or creatures?
  -  ok, sure, but it's really expensive.

3) The fact that multiple weapons used together simply do too much damage?
  -  powergaming with it is a problem, but nerfing the weapon itself, I believe will only encourage this.  People who powergame will just field more of them, whereas people that use them sparingly will stop using them.  I say make them less available, rather than nerfed stat-wise.

4)  Other
  -  please comment.

Firstly, I feel that you are thinking too narrowly. This isn't about Eldar vs Marines, the Heavy Bolter is a standard weapon for most Imperial Forces, and the Starcannon is the weapon you see in most Eldar armies. If we are to make a comparison between the two, it should be on their overally effectiveness, not the fact that either gun can nail their Marine/Eldar opponent on a 2+.

Starcannon neft argument. It is *too* good. Other options in the list are not looked at. The current problem with the Starcannon I see is thus.

S6 AP2 Heavy 3.

Now, at S6 it can cripple any light vehicle, wound the *average* monsterous creature 50% of the time, autokill T3 opponents, ETC.
At AP 2 it can mow through Terminator Armour, big bug Carapace, Flak Armour, Ork Body Armour, Mega Armour, Powered Armour, Necrons and Tau with equal ease.

I have no problem with the rate of fire.

Now, the problem I see is it just *too* good. You need NOTHING more with a Starcannon beside a Brightlance for knocking out armour.

Therefore, my nerf would be to either make it S5. That way, it is less effective against vehicles, doesn't Autokill T3 characters (I play Guard, I have a good few of them, thanks. As do other races), and has a tougher time against big nasties. That, OR, and I stress OR, would be to make it AP3. Then you have to think of different solutions to things like Terminator Armour, Mega Armour, big bug Carapace and so forth. At the minute, it's just too good an all round weapon. You don't need anything else.

I would also improve other weapons. Shurkien Cannon needs rending. It does, don't try to deny it. Sure, it'll just become an Eldar Assault Cannon, but it's not worth much otherwise. Scatter Laser needs to be more reliable. I'd say Heavy 3 + D3 shots. Makes it real effective there. Maybe too much, but I wouldn't take a weapon like that with my luck where it risks getting one shot a turn. (It is heavy D6, right?)

Offline pastrami hernandez

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I wouldn't mind S5 too much.  It's losing a shot that really worries me.  Because, despite the fact that it is pretty versatile, its main function is still to take on heavy infantry.  For S6 weapons that take on vehicles' side/rear armor, I actually do use scatter lasers, and warp spiders, and almost never starcannons.  The starcannon is the only eldar gun that effectively controls MEQ troops - the side effect of this is that it is good at taking out other things too, there's no way around it, because marines are tough.  I am opposed to losing a shot, because then we would have no weapons that can reliably thin out MEQ troops, and we'd be pretty screwed.  Of course, we don't know if another weapon will step up to take on that role, so it could be a moot point.  Strength 5, however, would only minimally effect its ability to take on heavy infantry, while significantly reducing its ability against vehicles (no chance against front armor ever) and monstrous creatures.  The point about the narrow-view comparison - well, you only face one enemy at once - meaning that in a given scenario, the full tactical flexibility won't be a factor.  The fact that I can take out monstrous creatures means nothing to a marine player.  The fact that I can take out numbers of troops with power armor means nothing to 'nids player, and so on.

Take part in a rules debate.  You'll make new friends and enemies, and there's no better way to increase your post count!!!

Offline Sheepz

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The point about the narrow-view comparison - well, you only face one enemy at once - meaning that in a given scenario, the full tactical flexibility won't be a factor.  The fact that I can take out monstrous creatures means nothing to a marine player.  The fact that I can take out numbers of troops with power armor means nothing to 'nids player, and so on.

Point conceeded. I just feel it is very easy to make a "take on all comers" list because of the Starcannon's versitility. I'd like to see more weapons used in conjunction with each other, in the same way my IG (Don't talk to me about Marines, I don't play them much anymore because, lets be honest, they are really easy to play with) are forced to rely on Heavy Bolters (and quite a few due to low BS) against swarms, Autocannons and Missiles against Transports (Rhino, Raider. The Starcannon would have little problem with them), Plasma Guns and Meltaguns against Terminators, Lascannons against big tanks etc.

But of course, like I said, we'd need to see some improvements in the weapons Eldar could take, because the current ones are disappointing and I don't grudge anyone who uses Starcannons just because they're amazing.

 


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