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Author Topic: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points  (Read 1581 times)

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Offline -Dark Fire-

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Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« on: February 13, 2009, 11:00:16 AM »
Currently (I haven't had time to buy any models) I've theory-hammered out a few lists - basically your classic mech with flamers coming out every available cavity.

I've decided to make a list without Seraphim for the moment (I know, blaspheming scum ;D) and so @1750 the current list has 9 vehicles - 3 Exorcists, 5 rhinos and an Immolator. That includes an Evisc. Canoness w/retinue (perhaps plus priest for 10 evisc. attacks overall), 4 BSS and 6 Celestians w/2 melta.

The main question though at the moment, and please focuss solely on that, is that whether such LVS will be at a big disadvantage in a KP game - with 16 KPs up for grabs? For example, my old Eldar force had 8 KPs at the same level.

I suppose once the BSSs get in the enemies face and start flaming then opponents should focuss on them and hopefully ignore the rhinos. Of course as you know SofB should be relatively good at KPs because the actual squads can use SofTM when the numbers are low.

Does it result as quite a game of KP denial, hiding rhinos etc. ?

Thank you for any replies /CF

Edit: For those unaware of the term, LVS = Light Vehicle Spam
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 12:51:22 PM by Dux Aurelius Elysius »
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Offline uriël1978

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Re: LVS and KPs
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2009, 12:31:30 PM »
I haven't had any problems with this. Exo's aren't exactly light IMO, so you shouldn't worry about them. As for the rhino's and the immolators, well, with 5th overall survivability of vehicles has gone up quite a bit.
Also consider that we still use our old codex specific rules for smoke launchers. So driving forward while popping smoke should help most of your vehicles survive turn 1 and from turn 2 onwards your opponent should have plenty of other things to worry about like a bunch of pissed sisters looking for heretics, traitors, aliens and other scum to burn and kill.

Just my €0.02
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Offline Dux Aurelius Elysius

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2009, 12:52:36 PM »
If you use a term a lot within a post and want to shorten it after the first couple of uses that's fine.  There's no excuse for the laziness of a thread title using nothing but abbreviations.  Please don't do it in the future.
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Offline -Dark Fire-

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2009, 03:40:27 PM »
Apologies for the abbreviations, moderators. @uriel: thank you for your response. 2 questions (although I would still like expansion from other on the original question), 1. The codex says refer to the rulebook so surely we refer to the current one for smoke? 2. Is extra armour needed on BSS's rhinos or will just smoke be fine? Currently I'd need to lose some combi-flamers to squeeze in extra armour on their rhinos. Many thanks, CF 
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Offline Draza

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2009, 08:56:44 PM »
When it comes to ligh vehicle spam, this list was an absolute killer at the LasVegasGT (or similiar list). It shows LVS can work

Quote
1 Palatine @ 192 Pts
Book of St. Lucius; Bolter; Add Celestian Retinue
4 Celestian Retinue @ [150] Pts
Bolter (x2); Meltagun (x2)
1 Sister Superior @ [13] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [65] Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer

4 Celestian Squad @ 150 Pts
Bolter (x2); Meltagun (x2)
1 Sister Superior @ [13] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [65] Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer

4 Celestian Squad @ 150 Pts
Bolter (x2); Meltagun (x2)
1 Sister Superior @ [13] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [65] Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer

4 Celestian Squad @ 150 Pts
Bolter (x2); Meltagun (x2)
1 Sister Superior @ [13] Pts
Bolter
1 Immolator @ [65] Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer

9 Battle Sisters Squad @ 199 Pts
Bolter (x7); Meltagun (x2); Mount in Rhino
1 Rhino @ [50] Pts
Storm Bolter
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [30] Pts
Book of St. Lucius; Bolter

9 Battle Sisters Squad @ 199 Pts
Bolter (x7); Meltagun (x2); Mount in Rhino
1 Rhino @ [50] Pts
Storm Bolter
1 Veteran Sister Superior @ [30] Pts
Book of St. Lucius; Bolter

5 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers @ 70 Pts
Frag Grenades; Hellgun (x3); Targeter; Meltagun (x2)

5 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers @ 70 Pts
Frag Grenades; Hellgun (x3); Targeter; Meltagun (x2)

5 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers @ 60 Pts
Frag Grenades; Hellgun (x3); Targeter; Flamer (x2)

5 Dominion Squad @ 138 Pts
Bolter (x3); Flamer (x2)
1 Immolator @ [65] Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer

5 Dominion Squad @ 138 Pts
Bolter (x3); Flamer (x2)
1 Immolator @ [65] Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer

5 Dominion Squad @ 138 Pts
Bolter (x3); Flamer (x2)
1 Immolator @ [65] Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer

1 Immolator @ 65 Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer

1 Immolator @ 65 Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer

1 Immolator @ 65 Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Flamer

Total Roster Cost: 1849

As for kill points, this list much like yours has plenty. First off it only matters in 1/3 of the missions. Probably even less if you play in a tournament.
Light vehicles are not as easy to kill as people make them out to be. They'll often be stunned, lose weapons or get immobilized before they're actually destroyed.

When you have a mass army of infantry and vehicles get close, you tend to forget about the maimed rhino's/Immo's and start targeting the healthy one's, because they're the one's that are going to cause the damage to your army.

You can have all the kill points in the world, but if you utterly crush your opponent, then it doesn't matter. You don't have to wipe them off the board to be successful. The more you kill, the less he has to damage your vehicles. Immobilizing a vehicle also adds salt to the wound, since damaged vehicles don't get you kill points. You may have 16 KP, but they're not toughness 3 Guardsmen we're talking about

Quote
Does it result as quite a game of KP denial, hiding rhinos etc. ?

Not really, it just involves using them normally to unload the cargo and then finding a proper use for them. That could include tank shocking infantry, blocking off charges, hiding in woods to prevent LOS to your forces or protecting your Exorcists. As long as your not tank shocking squads with dual meltaguns you should be fine

Offline uriël1978

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2009, 09:31:47 AM »
1. The codex says refer to the rulebook so surely we refer to the current one for smoke? 2. Is extra armour needed on BSS's rhinos or will just smoke be fine? 

Strange, my dex doesn't refer to the rulebook, it has the rule written in it. Are you using a printed dex or the downloadable pdf dex? My dex is pretty old, so it's possible GW changed a few things with reprints.

As for extra armour, I'd say no. The chances of being stunned are a bit lower in 5th than they were in 4th. I certainly don't use it anymore unless I have a few points to spare.
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Offline -Dark Fire-

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2009, 12:01:41 PM »
Thank you both for your replies. @uriel - printed, bought at a Games Day 3 years ago. @Draza - well that list is spam with a capital 'S'. Freaking hell I think I'd rather use a more balanced list @175O - a mere 9 vehicles. Just can't imagine sisters without Divine Guidance/Exorcists. Thank you for your other points and affirmation of LVS's viability in KPs.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 12:04:51 PM by Cleansing Flame »
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Offline Gornon

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2009, 12:18:36 PM »
Quote
Strange, my dex doesn't refer to the rulebook, it has the rule written in it. Are you using a printed dex or the downloadable pdf dex? My dex is pretty old, so it's possible GW changed a few things with reprints.

Odd.  Mine says look at the book.  Does yours also say that transports can only carry their squad?

@Draza

HOLY beslubber!  That's a lot of tanks.  I wonder how that thing would do vs Tau and Guard gunlines, or mech Tau or Eldar.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 12:19:55 PM by Gornon »
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Offline Draza

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2009, 09:13:29 PM »
Quote
Strange, my dex doesn't refer to the rulebook, it has the rule written in it. Are you using a printed dex or the downloadable pdf dex? My dex is pretty old, so it's possible GW changed a few things with reprints.
I got my codex on the day it came out and mine saids to look into the main rulebook. My dodgy codex also has no mention of the repair rule, amphibious rule or any clarification on how many models can use a firepoint.

Quote
Odd.  Mine says look at the book.  Does yours also say that transports can only carry their squad?
Yep I have that rule. I think the FAQ may over-ride it though, I need to recheck


Quote
As for extra armour, I'd say no. The chances of being stunned are a bit lower in 5th than they were in 4th. I certainly don't use it anymore unless I have a few points to spare.
I find for there low cost extra armour is incredibly useful. I find my tanks get stunned quite often. Remember murphys law, you always roll a 1 to damage a tank with a meltagun, which then produces a stunned result :D
If your using the IA rules, then extra armour can be left at home, those points are better spent elswhere

Quote
Freaking hell I think I'd rather use a more balanced list @175O
Trust me, its more balanced than you think

Quote
HOLY beslubber!  That's a lot of tanks.  I wonder how that thing would do vs Tau and Guard gunlines, or mech Tau or Eldar.
Against gunlines, if you go firsy I'd assume it's almost an automatic win.
Against Mech you'd have to play well. Theres 16 meltaguns in the list, I'm sure they'd make an impact ;)

Offline Wombats

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2009, 05:27:37 AM »
Was that run under 5th edition?

It might need a few Celestians/Dominions converted to Troops unless it depends on outright tabling the opponent every time. 

Not to mention that amount of fencing off capability would make it play very differently. 
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Offline -Dark Fire-

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2009, 04:00:43 PM »
Thank you all for your replies. Seeing as we all seem to be focussing on the list: 1. Would so many vehicles be a little unwieldy? I could see a few bottle neck situations developing. 2. Strength/weaknesses? I for one could see it suffering against MEQ horde, and perhaps DE/shooty eldar/tau mech (due to lack of long range anti-tank).
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Offline Wombats

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2009, 10:12:17 PM »
You could shut down LoS to your own units and isolate enemy units for focus firing. 

Has anyone actually play tested this list?

I have a feeling its the sort of thing an opponent would comp hit your for after the game in a tourney. 
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Offline Draza

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2009, 11:21:06 PM »
Quote
Has anyone actually play tested this list?
Only know of what guy who's used the list and read how that went. He played Eldar, two Daemons list, a Mech SOB list and unfortunetly a Genestealer shock list (which this list totally annihilates). I think we got 4 wins and a draw

Quote
Strength/weaknesses? I for one could see it suffering against MEQ horde, and perhaps DE/shooty eldar/tau mech (due to lack of long range anti-tank).
Thats the thing, you don't need long range anti-tank with a list like this. You basically box in the enemy and unleash a godly amount of flamers and meltaguns onto them.
Against MEQ horde, you'll still be doing a huge number of wounds onto them they'll be losing special weapons left right and center. And as Stelek pointed out, if they charge you, they've effectively put themselves into perfect flamer position [which is your entire army]

As for your army it will be played completly different. You've got much better ranged support, so you'll have to be more careful with the way you use your rhino's. Exorcists are brilliant in that they can move and be used at full firepower, this means you should always be getting clear shots off.
Your list will also have an easier time with Mech Tau and Eldar. While you don't have the same close range firepower, you have the ability to ground their forces, leaving them vulnerable to your offensive flamer units

Offline -Dark Fire-

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Re: Light Vehicle Spam and Kill Points
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2009, 12:50:34 PM »
Cheers Draza, that explanation helped. Grill them and box them eh. Sounds like what KFC staff do heh  ;D
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