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Author Topic: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle  (Read 1139 times)

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Offline -Dark Fire-

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Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« on: February 9, 2009, 04:54:54 PM »
It is my understanding that in tournament play, where each unit must be useful against a range of opponents, this forum - or at least the most experienced members, rule that Dominions do not cut it as a four-flamer-Immolator squad.

A typical rejected build is something like:

6x Dominion,                            @186/196
4xFlamer,
VSS w/book and/or combi flamer
Immolator w/ heavy flamer

Although this is an excellent unit against hordes the unit does not cut it, IMO, against any MEQs or TEQs because of the difficulty of using Divine Guidance with such a small squad.

Sure, the squad will kill a few marines, but a BS Squad will kill more, due to a much better chance of using Divine Guidance. To get DG reliably either a Litanies Canoness is required, or an expensive, and still not very reliable, Imagifier.

However, now I come to 'the interesting wrinkle'. With the Imperial Armour 2 Update pdf., SofB rhinos are reduced by 15 points, and include smoke launchers and storm bolter (+searchlight) as mandatory - basically at the level of the new Smurfs.

Now I feel, by losing the heavy flamer of the Immolator (the only real difference) but taking an updated SofB rhino you save 30 points (30+ if the Immolator had upgrades).

For a similar price, but a loss of a heavy flamer, a typical loadout can now be.

9 x Dominion           @189/199
4x Flamer
VSS w/book and/or combi-flamer
IA 2 rhino

With vastly increased numbers this squad is more resilient, no longer relying on SofTM to keep it alive after the first 'jump-out and flame' and has an almost equal chance to a BSS squad to use Divine Guidance but w/ a max of 5 rather than 2/3 flamer templates. This unit IMO, is much more dangerous against a range of foes a potentially very damaging for hordes and MEQs/TEQs alike (imagine a 20 man BT Crusader squad being flamed by 5 rending templates!).

Sure it isn't a troop choice as opposed to a BSS but I mean 4 flamers in the right place...

I apologise if your LGS will not allow you to  use the IA2 update - bringing sisters to the same level of rhino-cost as Smurfs - this wrinkle will not be applicable but for those that can, hope this helps, or spawns some lively discussion at least.

C and C welcome.This is all a kind of Eureka moment :D so if there is a blatant flaw please tell.


/CF
 Edit, here's a linkie to the IA2 update http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/pdf/ia2-update.pdf - Check pages 14-16
« Last Edit: February 9, 2009, 05:01:19 PM by Cleansing Flame »
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Offline DJ-of-E

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Re: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« Reply #1 on: February 9, 2009, 05:12:43 PM »
I would suggest spending the 15 points for Extra Armour.  The dominion squad is a super close-range flaming squad, and the rhino that cannot move is not worth saving 15 points.

Honestly, the lack of CC still doesn't cut well against heavy army units. 

However, you may be on to something on 2000pt games.  I mean, think about it.  You could use a tag team between Dominion and Seraphim.  This may quite possibly the nastiest combination for a sisters army to go against Space Marines.

You sir....I raised my hat for thinking outside the box.

Offline -Dark Fire-

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Re: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« Reply #2 on: February 9, 2009, 05:42:33 PM »
Agreed on the extra armour - but you'd want it on the Immo., in fact the codex Immo. needs smoke as well whilst the rhino comes w/ it base - so w/ extra armour on both the rhino option is still only 10 pts more - for a much more effective and resilient unit. Good point though.                                                                                                                                            As to the Seraphim and Dominion combo - freaking nasty :D Thnx for the hat *grabs it* :).
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Offline Canoness Luzza (Toogeloo)

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Re: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« Reply #3 on: February 9, 2009, 07:25:31 PM »
My own comments on this reflect what is acceptable in my LGS.  Since we dont use Forge World Rules, I can say that only because of rules outside the game would the Dominion become more worth their points.  However, you also fail to look at the fact that if you use IA2, then the Battle Sister Squads also get cheaper Rhinos.  Because of this, I feel you are still better off taking Battle Sisters before Dominions... You should have 6 TR choices with Combi-Flamer, Flamer, and Heavy Flamer before you even touch Dominion, whether you use IA2 or not.

Seraphim are far more versatile as a FA option because they dont rely on a vehicle, they can get out of trouble quickly, and they are survivable on foot while remaining mobile.  One lucky dice roll takes out a  Bolt Pistol girl... one lucky dice roll on Dominion turn them into foot sloggers and potentially remove them effectively if they have a long way to walk.
« Last Edit: February 9, 2009, 07:55:22 PM by Canoness Luzza (Toogeloo) »

Offline DJ-of-E

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Re: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« Reply #4 on: February 9, 2009, 07:56:14 PM »
That is true, but seraphims are still expensive as a full squad of 10.  It's up to how the person plays the game.

I wouldn't field Dominion Squad in a game less than 2000pt, but it's incredibly good for anti-horde control and distractions, such as orkz and nids.  It's like the Celestians unit, you can't use it standalone.  However, if used as support (my 2000pt sisters 4 troops w/ rhinos and 2 seraphim squads), then I'll play tactically differently than my opponent would say "I think he has 3 seraphims or 5 troop choices."

My only wish is that Celestions for the next edition can replace their bolters with bolt pistol & CCW.   ::)

Offline Canoness Luzza (Toogeloo)

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Re: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« Reply #5 on: February 9, 2009, 08:48:47 PM »
That is true, but seraphims are still expensive as a full squad of 10.  It's up to how the person plays the game.

I wouldn't field Dominion Squad in a game less than 2000pt, but it's incredibly good for anti-horde control and distractions, such as orkz and nids.  It's like the Celestians unit, you can't use it standalone.  However, if used as support (my 2000pt sisters 4 troops w/ rhinos and 2 seraphim squads), then I'll play tactically differently than my opponent would say "I think he has 3 seraphims or 5 troop choices."

My only wish is that Celestions for the next edition can replace their bolters with bolt pistol & CCW.   ::)

Most people dont field a seraphim squad as a 10 girl unit.  7 is pretty much the magic number for Faith use.  You can't reliably Spirit of the Martyr a 10 girl Seraphim squad, even with 3 dice.  Seraphim also serve as the "cockroach" equivalent in a Sister army.  You pop the Transport of a Celestian or Dominion squad, the squad itself just isnt that scary anymore (unless they are already in your lines).  You try to pie plate and shoot a Seraphim Squad, it just keeps coming.  Even one girl left in a Seraphim squad can be quite distracting.

As far as Celestians getting a BP and CCW, still doesn't help them in the wounding department, most likely requiring 5's to wound in most cases (unless you Hand, in which case you probably will have less attacks being dished out).

Offline DJ-of-E

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Re: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« Reply #6 on: February 9, 2009, 09:24:01 PM »
Most people dont field a seraphim squad as a 10 girl unit.  7 is pretty much the magic number for Faith use.  You can't reliably Spirit of the Martyr a 10 girl Seraphim squad, even with 3 dice.  Seraphim also serve as the "cockroach" equivalent in a Sister army.  You pop the Transport of a Celestian or Dominion squad, the squad itself just isnt that scary anymore (unless they are already in your lines).  You try to pie plate and shoot a Seraphim Squad, it just keeps coming.  Even one girl left in a Seraphim squad can be quite distracting.

As far as Celestians getting a BP and CCW, still doesn't help them in the wounding department, most likely requiring 5's to wound in most cases (unless you Hand, in which case you probably will have less attacks being dished out).

That is true in most accounts.

Man, I know you're a veteran, but you really do suck the fun out of this thread.  :-\

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Re: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« Reply #7 on: February 9, 2009, 09:35:55 PM »
The other problem I see is that if you're using the forge world version then why not just use the cheaper rhino for the troops unit? Thus putting the status quo back into ballance...

The 10 strong dominion unit does have potential in the ammount of damage that it can hand out, but personally I don't feel that they bring anything to the table that a standard BSS can't manage almost as well but have the bonus point of being scoring.
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Offline Canoness Luzza (Toogeloo)

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Re: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« Reply #8 on: February 9, 2009, 09:48:39 PM »
Quote
That is true in most accounts.

Man, I know you're a veteran, but you really do suck the fun out of this thread.

I'm no Veteran, I have only been playing since June of '08.  I just have been playing Sisters almost exclusively and I thoroughly enjoy them.  I do play competitively however, so I rarely take units that compete for Troops selections since they are truly the best unit in our arsenal.

Offline Gornon

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Re: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« Reply #9 on: February 9, 2009, 10:02:39 PM »
Quote
Man, I know you're a veteran, but you really do suck the fun out of this thread.  :-\

We are having a serious discussion about the merits of an idea.  I see no problem with Luzza's statement.  And I also agree that Dominions are not worth it compared to Battle Sisters.  In fact, they suffer from being different.  A mass of BSS Rhinos will mean that no matter what the opponent nails, there is another unit to fill that role.  What happens if the Dominion Rhino is the only one of the Rhino herd to make it across?  You will have no scoring unit.  Much better that it was a BSS.  In addition, while the Dominons may or may not have more anti-hoard firepower; it is unneeded.  A Battle Sister Squad is more then capable of obliterating a Boy Mob or nid Brood by themselfs.  In addition, they benefit from that AP 4 Heavy Flamer, quite handy vs those Aspect Warriors or 'Stealers. 
« Last Edit: February 9, 2009, 10:32:22 PM by Gornon »
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Offline -Dark Fire-

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Re: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2009, 04:45:31 PM »
Oh well, I can wish. I think if FOC had been filled out it might be worth it in say, Apocalypse, with 2 Seraphim Squads for a formidable tag team.

At the moment I've been theory-hammering out a few 1750 lists, and my current list contains 9 vehicles - basically LVS mech. 3 Exorcists, 5 rhinos and an Immolator. With that amount of armour saturation would it be worth play-testing one of those Dom. squads (well only if my LGS allows IA 2) instead if my 6 woman, 2 melta Celestian squad in an Immolator (cheap close range tank-hunting)? That's 4 BSS, a Celestian retinue for my Canoness and the 6 woman Celestians. 
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Offline ravenklath

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Re: Dominions and IA 2 Update - v.interesting wrinkle
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2009, 07:16:22 PM »
I honestly say try out the Dominions Im prob one of the only dominion advocates here as well as anti-phem. but this is only because i have horrible luck with my phem and my dominions are always great at drawing fire. If i get to use them to fry up some baddies then awesome if they distract something that can kill a BSSrhino  then awesome. So really for me its a win win situation. I say give the Dominions a go i did and i havnt looked back.

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