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Author Topic: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules  (Read 2591 times)

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Offline -The Reaper-

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40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« on: October 30, 2006, 06:45:06 PM »

Summary:

Fearless: Stays the same.

Deep Strike: Still being considered.

True Grit: Cool as is.

Aegis: Ideas still coming.

Shrouding: Needs work

Rites of Exorcism: Ok as is.

Daemonic Infestation: Stays the same.



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« Last Edit: November 9, 2006, 03:05:56 AM by DB_Reaper »

Offline g00gle5

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2006, 07:07:28 PM »
I'd be interested to see just how effective a decent shrouding rule would work for them. If we could find a reasonable ability for the shrouding which actually protected them from medium firearms some of the time instead of just protecting them from the occasional long range weapon (and when we are talking these ranges they often aren't firing back anyway).

How about Grey knights being able to use some form of transport as standard? Is there any fluff which is against why they dont use rhinos?

Maybe a 6+ invunerable for everybody. The main issue for Grey Knights is surviveabilty, their shooting and combat abilities are fine as they are.

However one thing that really irks me about Grey Knights is the fact their Grand Masters are the same weapon skill as a normal Grey Knight... Space Marines are the best of the best of humans, Grey knights are the best of the space marines and Grand Masters are the best of the Grey Knights... It doesnt make any sense to me.

Ws 6 Grand Masters, without a doubt.


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Offline -The Reaper-

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2006, 07:28:34 PM »
Sorry dude, this threads just for the special rules, you'll have to wait for the HQ and Troops revision for two of those topics.

I think the idea of shrouding is to stop things like basilisks destroying whole squads 48" away from them with no come back. I'm not really to bothered about enemies beating them with small arms fire the only squads capable of matching/beating GK at 24" is warp spiders, but we'd kill them if it gets to combat.

I quite like the idea of having some form of defense against psychic attacks, myabe rather then an invulnerable save all enemy psykers within 24" are at -1 LD when using psychic spells.

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2006, 08:44:09 PM »
Ahh sorry, didnt see it was dedicated to special rules, i understand now.

As you might see in some of the other threads i think daemon hunters are a very difficult army to play competitively which i think is a shame, as they are an elite force of crack troops.

Warp spiders at 24"? I don't think they are a huge issue.. Its more mass of plasma based weaponry at 24" i see as the problem. A Grey Knight is no more survivable then a normal marine, and daemon hunters field so many less. The shrouding needs to be able to come into play more at the shorter ranges when they need to close the gap. Not so much as to be no challenge for the daemon hunters to get into position (unlike harlequins...) but it challenges the daemon hunters opponent much more when facing them.

Quote
I quite like the idea of having some form of defense against psychic attacks, myabe rather then an invulnerable save all enemy psykers within 24" are at -1 LD when using psychic spells.

They have a mini psychic hood anyway, i think they have adquet psychic defense. 



 

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Offline Grand Master Rex Nihilo

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2006, 01:53:53 AM »
All headings are rated out of 5 Halberds :)

Fearless:  5\5
If you have to face the horrors these guys do on a regular basis you had better be. Fits the Fluff and VERY practical.

Deep Strike:  3\5
Okay, I get the intention (due to fluff) these boys don't get to use transports, fine. But DSing has HUGE disadvantages, late arrival, dangerous arrival and no assault on the turn of their arrival. (Their greatest strength BTW, gone)  So if you are to have the Emperors elite shock troops arrive on the scene to save the day at least let them arrive on time!  There are many possible options to allow the boys to get in safely to do their work. Special rules apply to Lysanader, Warp Spiders, Necron Lords and others, surely you can give some mobility options to the GK as they are prohibited from using dedicated transports. BTW I agree with no transports but I see a need for reliable arrival and some mobility once they have arrived.

True Grit 4.5\5
The extra attack is sweet especially after the first round of combat, the fact it works with the Storm Bolter ... Priceless!!  I think adding it to the GKT would be good but even though I partailly understand the bulky terminator agruement the Grand Master himself wears the same cumbersome armour so how cumbersome can it be?!

The Aegis :  3.5\5
Works like a mini Psy Hood but it isn't a Psyhood it is consecrated armour that has been annoited, ritually and prayerfully insribed with blessings in an archaic and baroque manner specifically for battle against warp spawned psychic powers therefor it should reflect that it is not a psy hood but similar to it in function. I would like to see it reworked to function as intended.

The Shrouding  1\5
Great in theory but as any DH player can attest poor in practice. How about this alternative, the current rules apply for those units that pass their leadership test but 'night fight' rules apply for those that fail. And it too should apply to the GK Dreads!

Rites of Exorcism and Daemonic Infestation are very specific to a small portion of one army so its value is limited and also balance each other out so no net gain.

Rob



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Offline Locarno

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2006, 03:49:36 AM »
Quote
Rites of Exorcism and Daemonic Infestation
I agree that these are fine.....besides, they come up so rarely anyway, as it has to be a chaos army with daemons (so no Iron Warriors or pure Marine Forces).
The only rule I've seen used regularly is the difficult terrain check for a daemon prince to charge them.

Quote
Fearless
More to the point, it's a universal special rule. I'm very much a fan of the 'don't make up new special rules if there's already one that does exactly what you want' school of thinking.

Quote
The Aegis
True, it's not. But the terminators certainly have something that looks very much like a psychic hood built into the armour....I think the personal psychic hood is quite nice, but for simplicity's sake (i.e. not having to do an opposed roll each time) you could make it a 5+ save like the Sororitas' Shield of Faith. This gives you pretty much the same protection, and is simpler to use.

Quote
The Shrouding
 
The problem with giving The Shrouding to Grey Knight Dreadnoughts is that they'll be armed with a lascannon and missile launcher and sitting at the back of the board completely immune to retalliation.....
I agree it should be improved a bit; I'd suggest giving it the same stats as a stealthsuit..
A leadership check followed by a night-fighting roll as well seems a bit clunky.

Quote
Deep Strike
Necron lords get to re-teleport. That, Grey Knights definitely shouldn't have.
Ditto warp spiders. The teleporters are on the strike cruiser, not being lugged around with them.
I wouldn't use Lysander's rule...no strike cruiser can compete for teleport capacity with the Phalanx, besides it's the one thing that's truly unique to him, and he is a special character. I might suggest a bonus to reserve rolls, but personally I don't think they should. Teleporting from a strike cruiser is the same way terminator squads arrive, use the same rules.
The one thing I would say is that all grey knights should have the option.
Have all 5-6 squads teleporting in instead of just 2-3 and you will get some troops down the first time you roll.

I also like the concept of teleporting in the dreadnoughts; you're shifting no more volume than a terminator squad...it's a neat alternative to drop pods, which grey knights don't use.
Include it in the cost and it's cheaper than a drop pod, albeit at greater risk. (possibility of a bad deepstrike and no drop pod model to back that rear armour up against)


Quote
True Grit

Actually it works in all rounds, but you don't get an attack for charging (see universal rules). This can be important when facing something like Wyches that can take away additional close combat weapon attacks.
Again, it's a universal rule....albeit with stormbolters rather than bolters.
I don't think the terminators should get it for a couple of reasons;

1) Fluff: Terminator armour is bulky, and it is hard to use. The fact that so few weapons can be used whilst wearing it is a case in point. The grand master, and all terminators, however, wear it because grey knight tactical dreadnought plate is possibly the single best set of body armor ever made for humans.

2) Gameplay: Exactly how hideously powerful do you want grey knight terminators to be? They already outclass space marine terminators in every field other than assault cannon wielding-ness by an order of magnitude.




Other suggestions:

PSYKER
An inquisitor does not count as a psyker unless he takes one of the following wargear options:
One or more Psychic Powers
(Including a Force Weapon or Nemesis Force Weapon)
A Psychic Hood
The Emperor's Tarot

The Brother-Captain or Justicar of a Squad is considered a psyker for all purposes, all ranges relating to psychic powers are drawn to or from him, and he (specifically) suffers Perils of the Warp hits.
Other grey knights are not sufficiently strong psychics to be affected by any special rule or effect relating to psykers.


Special Rules for inquisitors/inquisitor lords
Iron Will
Rocks. It would rock even more if his retinue wasn't compulsory, but this is not the thread for that.

Other new rules:
Infiltrate/Scout/Move through Cover
I can see retinues getting this, but I suggest they should only be getting a skill like this via choice of henchmen (as he should get most skills and special rules; this allows you to build the inquisitor you want...). Plus an inquisitor is rather too cheap to come with a skill like this by default.

Furious Charge
No. Just no. He's S3, he's a normal human, however well trained. This is he defining characteristic of an inquisitor - his humanity (or occasional lack of it)....I can't get my head round any reason for him to have furious charge...
Make up for it with wargear if you want, but not special rules.





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Offline Findecano

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2006, 05:03:55 AM »
on the GK deepstrike, how about getting an 'improved comms' style henchman on an inquisitor; giving a reroll on a reserve roll.
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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2006, 06:24:58 AM »
That's fair enough, I think - although that's possibly a different thread for inquisitors...

Essentially, so far as I see it, teleporting is teleporting, grey knights, terminators and deathwatch should all use the same rules. However you can give an advantage to yourself by using teleport homers and improved comms (which inquisition armies can get access to on inducted guard vehicles. They probably should be able to put them on an inquisitor's transport vehicle as well....), taking pretty much all risk out of the action

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Offline -The Reaper-

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #8 on: November 1, 2006, 05:02:12 PM »
Rites and Deamonic:

Yep fine as they are to me.

Fearless:

That sounds good as well, no changes.

Deep strike:
How about, +1 to reserves roll and all scatters are 1D6 rather than 2D6.

True Grit:

I'm happy with the ruling for GKT as it is.

Aegis:

I quite like the mini Psy hood they have as it is, rather then the squad role to save from it, they stop it before it is cast. 30 low level psykers each with a mini psyhood, is gonna stop all but the strongest attacks fluffwise.. Although, how does it work when a psychic power targets a GKT squad that has a real psyhood? do you use one or both?

Shrouding:


Rather then 3D6 x 3, how about 2D6 x 4?

Offline Angels Purgatus

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #9 on: November 1, 2006, 10:45:47 PM »
I like the idea of 1D6 scatter for DSing.  These guys are adept at this method of attacking and are the most well-equiped and trained troops in the imperium.  This is and shrouding are the rules that need major overhaul.  I think shrouding should be same as night fighting because I have countless times been confused as to the multipliers (not that my inability to keep two numbers straight is cause for change but simplicity and standarization are necessary qualities in this sized game system).  Which I guess brings me back to my original statement...maybe all the reg rules should apply just to keep it easy but make homers cheaper and possibly available to allied guard units.

Why are GK so against pods aside from the coolness of teleporting?  Furthermore, why can SM auxillaries or base list units not use them?  This seems to rob SM of one of their characteristic features.
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Offline Locarno

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #10 on: November 2, 2006, 05:25:47 AM »
Quote
Although, how does it work when a psychic power targets a GKT squad that has a real psyhood? do you use one or both?

Only one. This is in the codex at the moment.

Quote
These guys are adept at this method of attacking

But are they substantially beter trained for this than space marine 1st company terminators or deathwatch veterans. I really don't see why everyone's convinced teleport must be made better for grey knights....

Quote
How about, +1 to reserves roll and all scatters are 1D6 rather than 2D6.
Aaaggh!!!!! You what? One or other is bad enough, (D6 scatter is unbelivably good for a squad that can pack 2 heavy flamers!) but BOTH?

Quote
Why are GK so against pods aside from the coolness of teleporting?
That, and keeping them distinct from space marines. Fluff-wise, they're not front line troops, they won't be hitting a battlefield or fortress, they'll be going in to terminate a particular daemon/sorceror/daemonhost, and teleporting allows them to appear inside a bunker or pallace rather than have to fight their way in from a viable drop pod landing site.

Quote
Furthermore, why can SM auxillaries or base list units not use them?  This seems to rob SM of one of their characteristic features.
This was for a previous version of the codex, where drop pods was a special rule that allowed the entire army to deepstrike, provided every unit in the marine army could deep strike via the drop pods rule (which grey knights can't, so you couldn't).

Now drop pods are a purchased transport instead, and not all of the army have to use them,  so I'm not sure this still applies. Remember the daemonhunters FAQ hasn't been updated since the new marine codex came out.

Nothing says you can't put space marine allies to a daemonhunters force in drop pods (you don't get grey knights with space marine allies, so the issue never comes up)

Teleport homers need to be the same cost and rules as a space marine teleport homer. I'd suggest against changing the armoury options of inducted/allied units as they're part of a different codex, and that gets awkward. You can already put teleport homers on stormtroopers, a lone inquisitor (who can be added to a guard platoon), allied marine scout squads (infiltrating telepot homer!) and other grey knights...


Quote
I think shrouding should be same as night fighting because I have countless times been confused as to the multipliers


You can get better than normal night fighting - veil of tears is only 2D6x2, but that's hideously good, and shouldn't be availible to any squad with access to storm bolters and heavy weapons. I say just clone the tau stealthsuit rule.....
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Offline Grand Master Rex Nihilo

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #11 on: November 4, 2006, 05:03:54 PM »
Quote
The Aegis
 I'd suggest giving it the same stats as a stealthsuit..

What are the stealth suit rules ... not a Tau player therefor no Tau Codex.

Quote
Deep Strike
Necron lords get to re-teleport. That, Grey Knights definitely shouldn't have.
Ditto warp spiders. The teleporters are on the strike cruiser, not being lugged around with them.
I wouldn't use Lysander's rule...no strike cruiser can compete for teleport capacity with the Phalanx, besides it's the one thing that's truly unique to him, and he is a special character. I might suggest a bonus to reserve rolls, but personally I don't think they should. Teleporting from a strike cruiser is the same way terminator squads arrive, use the same rules.
The one thing I would say is that all grey knights should have the option.
Have all 5-6 squads teleporting in instead of just 2-3 and you will get some troops down the first time you roll.

I also like the concept of teleporting in the dreadnoughts; you're shifting no more volume than a terminator squad...it's a neat alternative to drop pods, which grey knights don't use.
Include it in the cost and it's cheaper than a drop pod, albeit at greater risk. (possibility of a bad deepstrike and no drop pod model to back that rear armour up against)

I in no way want the GK to use any of these special powers from other races or special characters but my point was the precedent has been set to get creative with the whole idea of teleporting so we need not be bound or limited by Adeptus Astartes paradigms.

GK troop choices should DS as normal and slight improvements for the FA and Elite choices that can teleport. Maybe even a further improvement for the one and only Grand Master! This is a tradeoff for not being able to use transports and the incumbant disadvantages of DSing aside from being the GK forte. Currently one could create an IG doctrines army that is much better at DSing as you can with other armies, so why are the universes elite teleport attack squads so inept (comparatively) at their speciality?

A synergistic strategy including cheaper Teleport Homers, reserve rerolls etc. should be in the next codex to make the GK force competive at what they do best.  Not Power gaming but an explosive strike force that can appear 'ex nihilo' (out of nowhere) and be effective.

BTW if Teleporting were available to GK Dreads then the shrouding for them would not be needed!

Rob



« Last Edit: November 4, 2006, 05:06:25 PM by Grand Master Rex Nihilo »
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Offline -The Reaper-

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #12 on: November 4, 2006, 09:25:14 PM »
The one thing I would say is that all grey knights should have the option.
Have all 5-6 squads teleporting in instead of just 2-3 and you will get some troops down the first time you roll.


I like the sound of that, would play a lot better rather then leaving two expensive troops facing an army.

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #13 on: November 6, 2006, 03:09:52 AM »
Quote
What are the stealth suit rules ... not a Tau player therefor no Tau Codex.

For shrouding, rather than aegis. It works just like the shrouding, but is a much more restrictive roll (to the point where people can be expected to fail it outside small arms range).

Quote
A synergistic strategy including cheaper Teleport Homers, reserve rerolls etc. should be in the next codex to make the GK force competive at what they do best.  Not Power gaming but an explosive strike force that can appear 'ex nihilo' (out of nowhere) and be effective.

You've already got teleport homers, and I'm not sure why they need to be cheaper...reserve rerolls, I agree. You can get them on inducted guard, but I agree that Improved Comms should be availible to inquisitor's transports....

Currently one could create an IG doctrines army that is much better at DSing as you can with other armies.

You can get one with multiple improved comms that you know 75% will turn up turn 2. IG have no equivalent of the teleport homer though to allow absolutely precise placement...

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Offline Grand Master Rex Nihilo

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #14 on: November 9, 2006, 02:55:58 AM »
Quote
Quote
A synergistic strategy including cheaper Teleport Homers, reserve rerolls etc. should be in the next codex to make the GK force competive at what they do best.  Not Power gaming but an explosive strike force that can appear 'ex nihilo' (out of nowhere) and be effective.

You've already got teleport homers, and I'm not sure why they need to be cheaper...reserve rerolls, I agree.

Teleport Homers are very nice. In the SM Codex they are 5 points but in the DH Codex they are 10 points.

A 50 (fifty!) point justicar should have one built into his cost!


Quote
You can get them on inducted guard, but I agree that Improved Comms should be availible to inquisitor's transports....

Or on a GM, similar to the Autarch.

Rob






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Offline -The Reaper-

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #15 on: November 9, 2006, 03:02:15 AM »
Hmmm.. see, i tend to think of the Inquisitor being the commander behind the attacks, while the GM tends to be more of just the bad ass fighter. I'd give the Inq the improved comms if anything.

Although i do agree that the Telehomer should be the same as the SMurf dex.


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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #16 on: November 9, 2006, 03:31:48 AM »
Oh..my apologies. Yes, they should be of the same cost as the marine one. Didn't tregister the marine one had had its cost cut.



Quote
A 50 (fifty!) point justicar should have one built into his cost!
A Marine Veteran Sergeant with a power sword is, by comparison, 40 points. A justicar is already more than good enough to justify those 10 points....

Quote
I'd give the Inq the improved comms if anything
As I said, add it as a vehicle upgrade to inquisition transports, just as with guard. Maks sense and offers you your much wanted reserve rerolls.
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Offline Grand Master Rex Nihilo

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #17 on: November 9, 2006, 03:36:21 AM »
The Grand Masters act independantly of the Inquisitors and are more likely the tactical genius in the mix as the Inquisitor is the Stategic (Big picture type).

A GMs unquestioned, trusted Leadership and their practical proficient experience with teleporting to me would give rise to the idea that they would be the source of rerolls for the reserve units (teleportation at least).

Rob

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Offline Atticus

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Re: 40ko Deamonhunters revision: Special Rules
« Reply #18 on: November 9, 2006, 04:31:05 PM »
i think the shroding needs to be reworked but if you make it like tau stealth suit it might be a little unfair as you will need double 6's to see a purgitation squad.  Mayber something like roll 3 d 6 but discarde the lowest.   For 2 die you will roll a 7 more than any other so that 21" so the extra die will give you a better chance to reach em but still better than shrouding.  i also agree the Grey knights should get Drop pods.  In the books grey knights it even says they use drop pods.  Every thing else is fine but if i may add something it is that a GM should have a Weapon skill of 6 as the even Grey knights are 5 and the GM has been fighting for 100+ years he might of learned little more about combat.

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