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Author Topic: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed  (Read 6106 times)

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Offline Akaiyou

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2008, 05:28:56 PM »
What's this about rends?

rends = rending

when you roll a 6 to wound it counts as being and automatic wound ap2.
meaning the opponent gets no save (other than invulnerable)

all gauss weapons have that property. So the more hits you land on your opponent the better your odds at rolling a 6 to wound.

from 9 immortals that pump out 18 shots, odds are 12 will hit and from 12 hits odds are 2 will be 6s thus 2 automatic wounds to whatever you shoot regardless of how big and bad it is.
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Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2008, 05:32:27 PM »
Since when does gauss=rending?

Offline Akaiyou

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2008, 05:41:00 PM »
Since when does gauss=rending?

Read page 14 of the Necron codex.

Even tho it doesnt outwardly call it 'rending', what's described there is the exact same properties we know as rending. And consider that the codex is rather old thus it hasn't been updated.

FAQ haven't changed the entry either however most players will recognize it as being pretty much the same as rending in the fact that it causes an auto-wound regardless of toughness on a to wound roll of 6.

Thus it's objectively speaking the same thing. You can call it a grey monkey if you want but if it looks like a car, acts like a car, runs like a car, im gonna call it a car.
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Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2008, 06:11:26 PM »
OH wow.  That's not what that means.  All that means is that you can wound creatures that you wouldn't normally be able to like Wraithlords.  They still get an armor save.

Offline Akaiyou

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2008, 06:14:51 PM »
OH wow.  That's not what that means.  All that means is that you can wound creatures that you wouldn't normally be able to like Wraithlords.  They still get an armor save.

oh gtfo of here ur right! man that's a lot of necron BS then i've been shoot with.  >:( >:( >:(
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Offline Erethrin

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2008, 06:17:27 PM »
yeah they can wound any infantry or auto-glance any vehicle but they still have their save.
dont make the gauss weapon worst than it is (im on the wrong end of the bat here since i dont play them)

Offline Akaiyou

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2008, 06:38:35 PM »
yeah they can wound any infantry or auto-glance any vehicle but they still have their save.
dont make the gauss weapon worst than it is (im on the wrong end of the bat here since i dont play them)

im a tyranid player just starting necrons and just about every necron opponent i've played always claims that it's a rend so i figured so many (ok im exaggearting its more like 3 diff ppl) can't be all lying.

Plus i've skimmed the rules and it sounded very similar but jeez that sucks...i'd much rather have a rending weapon. Bleh this throws the statistics in the trash.
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Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2008, 07:24:49 PM »
Well if you have any other questions I suggest you ask them before you put your 'crons on the table.

And if you're just starting the army why are you trying to come on this thread and tell people who have been playing the army for years what units are better than others?

Just curious.   ;)

Offline 808giza

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2008, 07:38:24 PM »
What's this about rends?

I was asking myself the exact same question.

Offline Akaiyou

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2008, 07:56:29 PM »
Well if you have any other questions I suggest you ask them before you put your 'crons on the table.

And if you're just starting the army why are you trying to come on this thread and tell people who have been playing the army for years what units are better than others?

Just curious.   ;)

just started doesnt mean i haven't actually played and if you've played WH long enough some basic rules apply to all armies. I was under the impression that gauss weapons rended (that's how they were used against me and consequently how i used them) and in turn my opinion based on stats and play and tons of knowledge on how stats and effectiveness compare in my Tyranid army i made the same comparison and saw that Immortals were hands downt he better choice.

However this is like they say, if u get just one bad number in your math, it makes your whole equation incorrect no matter how proper u do it. My opinion and numbers would be 100% correct if the weapons rended as I had been told but after doing more than skimming rules that i thought i already knew from playing against necron players i see that you are infact correct and it throws my stats in the gutter lol like i said myself

my new opinion is that immortals are still better but only slightly instead of hands down as they clearly don't win in every category but the wounding difference is sitll minimal. (take away the 'rend' ) factor and you can see that comparitively they are causing more deaths in more cases than destroyers.
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Offline BearBitesHurt

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2008, 08:08:37 PM »
I'm not going to argue this point with you much, since you're apparently unwilling to listen to reason.

The difference is not "minimal" in wounding.

And if the Immortals that you play against aren't getting pwned by your Tyranid MCs in your army then you're doing something wrong, I think.  As a Tyranid player I would expect you to be in there cursing Destroyers for being able to outrun your Genestealers and Flyrants and Raveners while pouring S6, AP4 hurt all over them.

Offline Akaiyou

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2008, 08:22:24 PM »
I'm not going to argue this point with you much, since you're apparently unwilling to listen to reason.

The difference is not "minimal" in wounding.

And if the Immortals that you play against aren't getting pwned by your Tyranid MCs in your army then you're doing something wrong, I think.  As a Tyranid player I would expect you to be in there cursing Destroyers for being able to outrun your Genestealers and Flyrants and Raveners while pouring S6, AP4 hurt all over them.

I always beat necrons by victorious slaughter in 4th edition...soo ummm never really saw a reason to curse them. Other than that one game where one of those necron players argued his way out of having his Nightbringer pawned by the Hive Tyrant + Tyrant Guard since he was dumb enough to approach them thinking he'd win a fight

But other than that particular point of battle Necrons were never a challenge. Tyranids aren't exactly a 'slow' army, your jetbikes won't save you. I'm pretty good as a Tyranid player.

I'm only just starting necrons because i got the army of one of the guys I used to play with for free (he retired since he was kinda the weakest link in the group) so I took over and so far I won against Tau however I have obviously been using the rules wrong so I won't even count that fight as a win need more practice and yes i do appreciate advice but just look at the numbers the only difference between gauss weapons rending and not rending is the damage they do against 3+ and better. And you can not include MEQs because a group of Immortals for the same points as a group of Destroyers will cause the same amount of wounds. Thus against the great majority of opponents Immortals will equal or best the Destroyers as far as infantry is concerned. Destroyers are better against light vehicles and characters/monstrous creatures but only slightly. (look at the numbers bro if u want i'll re-do them for you)

as for as defensively i don't need tons of experience playing them to know that immortals are a better value, jetbikes just arent a 'defensive' power up, it's added movement and maneuverability.

If I slap a Tyranid warrior with wings (giving me all the same benefits that you would have as a jetbike) and give it barbed strangler (so that he has the same 36" range) does not mean that all of a sudden now he's more survivable than walking Warrior with a 24" deathspitter.  This is why I can speak bout that comparison because i can pretty much do the same thing if i so wished as a tyranid player. Obviously there's differences but fact is that you pay so many more points for Destroyers yet don't gain enough to say 'ok this is cost effective'

and the fact that wounds directly affect phase out and wbb is also a BIG defensive matter that you are dismissing in your claims that defensively destroyers are better. Specially on the phase out part since that's a potential game over.
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Offline Changeyname

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2008, 08:30:07 PM »
But other than that particular point of battle Necrons were never a challenge. Tyranids aren't exactly a 'slow' army, your jetbikes won't save you. I'm pretty good as a Tyranid player.


If I slap a Tyranid warrior with wings (giving me all the same benefits that you would have as a jetbike)
sorry but jetbikes are much much more manoeuvrable than you're giving thm credit for due to the "turbo-boost" special rule they all benefit from,

sure you're flyrant can move 12" and run another (up to) 6", but this still means that jetbikes can get 24" away in their next turn.....
and you can't even box them in due to their being able to move over other troops

not saying whether immortals or destroyers are better as i can't be arsed with math hammer as the dice gods care not for your numbers and things never ever go to averages, (we all know this the hard way) ;)

just saying dont write them off just based on paper calculations :)
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Offline Akaiyou

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2008, 09:04:55 PM »
But other than that particular point of battle Necrons were never a challenge. Tyranids aren't exactly a 'slow' army, your jetbikes won't save you. I'm pretty good as a Tyranid player.


If I slap a Tyranid warrior with wings (giving me all the same benefits that you would have as a jetbike)
sorry but jetbikes are much much more manoeuvrable than you're giving thm credit for due to the "turbo-boost" special rule they all benefit from,

sure you're flyrant can move 12" and run another (up to) 6", but this still means that jetbikes can get 24" away in their next turn.....
and you can't even box them in due to their being able to move over other troops

not saying whether immortals or destroyers are better as i can't be arsed with math hammer as the dice gods care not for your numbers and things never ever go to averages, (we all know this the hard way) ;)

just saying dont write them off just based on paper calculations :)

I play chaos space marines too i have bikers tho jetbikes are better turbo boosting is not as great as you guys want to make it seem it has restrictions and lets not forget u can't do a thing after. There are only a few situations where turbo-boosting is desired over actually attacking the enemy. I'm not making an argument about 'situational' scenarios because like many have said things perform better than others depending on the situation, however in 'general' immortals ARE the better value against most things you face both offensively and defensively. Str 6 is great and all but come on fellas there's very few other armies out there that would brag about their str 6 guns as being 'awesome' str 6 is not a big jump from str 5 the way str 4 is a big jump from str 3. Because str 5 already makes you real gd at wounding things, str 6 has a degrading value, str 7 is even more 'bleh'. 

And jetbikes are great to maneuver but most of the 'defensive' qualities mentioned bout being a jetbike have been 'i can hide them' a point that works like a double-edged sword, because other than the 1st turn, hiding them any other turn would mean you are not shooting and thus they arent serving their purpose, and even moving into terrain you have to take dangerous terrain test for i believe so that's another minus to 'cover hopping' plus the fact that your normal save is better than what you get from cover doesnt really make cover all that desirable.

If your strategy is to play the 'turtle' and camp out in the back remember that most opponents can do this BETTER than you. So that's another reason why this strategy just isn't good defensively. Offensively yes it is great to have the extra movement to maneuver and get in a better attacking position I have destroyers too I've played them and like someone else said, the immortals do infact last the whole game while the destroyers get wiped off the table rather easily due to smaller unit size and not enough wounds.
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Offline Erethrin

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2008, 10:42:12 PM »
gauss are GREAT weapon , even the lowlyest (sp?) necron can wound a wraithlord ... name another army that can do the same , yeah they get their save , but they will fail some

has for destroyer vs immortal , i often faced necron and destroyer are easier to destroy with concentrated fire , immortal might be slower but they are great to walk in the middle (kinda like i do with wraithguard)  and if you want speed , just use use a taxi cab (lord the veil)

i never played againts necron in 5th (yet) but i could assume that heavy destroyer would be needed againts AV12+ (in 4th you could fire with anything on a tank and cripple/destroy it with glancing , now you cant really do it)

Offline Akaiyou

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2008, 11:14:11 PM »
oh yeah gauss is definetly a great weapon lol but it's just not as cool as it woud've been if it had rending like i thought it did. Rending ftw!

anyway i'll have to play more games properly but seriously necrons need a new codex and more units for crying out loud.
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Offline typhon

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2008, 11:30:49 PM »
gauss wounds anything on a 6 but they get a save 

plus with the cover save rules darn near every unit is getting a cover save  so rend they usually get a cover save so it's about the same if you ask me

the for vechiles with alot of luck you might glance a 14 armour with gauss you need a 6 I'll take that

Offline Erethrin

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2008, 12:29:11 AM »
the for vechiles with alot of luck you might glance a 14 armour with gauss you need a 6 I'll take that

good luck destroying all the weapon and immobilizing it (to wreck the tank)
Of course , a glancing is better than nothing when you don't have another target to hit , and a shaken still save you from a round of shooting

Offline moc065

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2008, 08:06:43 AM »
Wow, holy freaking tangent.... I never considered the Gauss rule even close to the Rend rule (because it is not)... Read your Codex, apply the rules as they are writtin, and never trust an opponent... Its OK to say things like "I don't know your codex rules, could you show me ?"

Now on to the old topic of Immortals vs Detroyers.

They are different, neither is better or worse as they should be used differently and have different priority targets. Think about it.... If your using your Destoryers to shoot the same stuff your Immortals are shooting (all the time) then you not fighting as effectively as possible. Here is an example for you. Start a unit of Immortals (7 =  196pts) and a unit of Destoryers (4 = 200pts) 36" apart form each other and see who wins that fire fight... now start them 12" away from each other and re-roll the dice... Do you see the differnce now... Destroyers are meant to work the flanks of the enemy from range... Immortals are meant to slowly entrap the enemy as they reduce the range and fire on them. Neither one is better, they should be doing different jobs within your army.  Consider other factors as well, see how many shots from Immortals it takes to kill a single Dark Eldar Grotesque; its impossible as you must have a str=6 or better weapon weapon to kill Grotesques (read the DE Codex, although Rending would work if Necrons had it). So if your facing off vs DE and they are using Grotesques, then you better have a Destroyer squad on hand, or your going to loose and never cause any damage what so ever. I can give you examples for using both units, but my point is that you need to balance your army list, so pick the unit that you need most, and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing.

PS... I use both Immortals and Destroyers in most of lists.. I also use H-Destroyers, Wraiths, Flayed Ones, Monoliths... hell the whole army selection as my lists change and some units work well together or on their own.

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Offline Greenkellie

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Re: Destroyers vs Immortals 5th ed
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2008, 12:01:07 PM »
i think immortals are better, why? well not due to being more killie not being more any thing, simply due to.. i love the models XD they look like Necron warriors on Protine+ and work out at the gym 5 days a week!
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