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Author Topic: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.  (Read 3137 times)

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Offline MagicJuggler

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"3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« on: March 12, 2015, 07:59:08 PM »
The intent of this proposed rule is to consolidate the increasing number of FOC variants, as well as make it easier to field themed armies or previously legal armies without having to resort to "FOC-swap" mechanics of earlier codexes or play Unbound.

In 3+3-Hammer, a CAD has 1 Fortification Slot, 1 LoW slot, and 3 of each other type of slot (3 HQ, 3 Troops, 3 Elites, 3 Fast Attack, and 3 Heavy Support).

After this, you select a Focus for your CAD. This is a part of the FOC that you put extra emphasis on. You may select an HQ Focus, an Elite Focus, a Troop Focus, a Fast Attack Focus, or a Heavy Support Focus. What a Focus means, is that you have 3 more slots for that slot-type, but you *must* take a minimum of 3 units for that slot-type. For example, a CAD with an Elite Focus *must* take a minimum of 3 Elite units, and can take up to 3 more Elite Units.

All CADs allow you to reroll your Warlord Trait. Additionally, depending on the Focus you have, your army gets a different bonus. The bonuses are listed below, and previous discussions/issues which had been brought up/are points of concern are below that.

-A CAD with an HQ Focus gains High Command: This CAD may adjust all HQ pre-game ability rolls (including Psyker Powers, Daemonic Gifts/Chaos Boons, Illuminor Szeras' troop modifications, The Mirrorcodex's abilities, etc) by + or -1. The Warlord Trait is *NOT* modified by this.
-A CAD with a Troop Focus gains Objective Secured: for its Troops.
-A CAD with an Elites Focus gains Special Forces: Each Elites unit in the CAD (except Dedicated Transports) selects two USRs at army creation from the list below. No two Elite units in the same CAD may select the same USRs. The list is below: Deep Strike, Furious Charge, Hit & Run, Infiltrate, Monster Hunters, Move Through Cover, Precision Strikes/Shots, Rampage, Relentless, Stubborn, Stealth, Scouts, Split Fire, Tank Hunters.
-A CAD with a Fast Attack Focus gains Maneuver Warfare: Any Fast Attack unit in this CAD may make a D6" move in the assault phase. "Jet" units (Eldar Jetbikes, Jetpack Infantry, Jetpack Cavalry, etc) roll an extra D6 on their Jetpack move, and drop the lowest.
-A CAD with a Heavy Support Focus gains Big Guns Never Tire: All Heavy Support units in the CAD resolve their Snap Shots at BS 2. You still may not snap-shoot weapons that normally cannot be snap-fired; ergo, you could shoot Autocannons at an enemy flyer at BS 2, but you wouldn't be able to knock them out of the air with a Battlecannon.

Designers Notes/Concerns:
-Most of the original design for this CAD ruleset was based off: "1850 points, 2 detachments maximum, no more than one combined arms detachment." How this ruleset would interact with Forgeworld rules is something I've not yet fully looked into (there are a LOT of things for FW...).
-The standard concerns are of the "but you can spam X super-unit now". 6 Riptides, 6 Wraithknights, 6 Flyrants, or what-have-yous. Honestly, I feel most of them are fairly unwarranted: Usually, such units give diminishing returns, and such armies usually have massive shortcomings preventing their viability as TAC-lists. *That* said, these rules should generally overrule codex rules that allow you to switch unit FoCs around (Except for Dark Eldar's "Kabalites/Wyches become Elites when upgraded" syntax).
-For armies that roll a D66 for pre-game abilities (see: Chaos Space Marines), you may choose to alter either of the two dice by +-1, but not both. For example, a 45 could become a 44, a 46, a 35, or a 55.
-I'm on the fence as to whether Dark Eldar Combat Drugs should be included as part of the High Command bonus, but currently I'm leaning "No."
-Special Forces is very heavily based off the "Been There, Done That" rule for Ogre Kingdoms Maneaters. As any honorable gamer should, you should clearly state what abilities your units have in your army list, and model the rules in creative ways. Whether its putting an anti-grav harness on a Deep Striking Triarch Stalker, or having Hit & Run Murderfang strike a ninja pose, this rule is meant as much for the hobby side of things ("Doing cool things you normally couldn't) as it is for the gaming side of things. The way "Special Forces" currently works would interface weirdly with Militarum Tempestus Platoons. For Astra Militarum armies, I recommend you remove the Platoon as an option, and instead make a single Tempestus squad an Elite choice, that can upgrade to have a Tempestor Prime/Medkit/etc.

-The original version of "High Command" was 'May choose a Warlord Trait on top of the normal Warlord Trait rolled." It felt too much like "Well, looks like the opponent will auto-pick Master of Ambush." Which turned out to be a true concern: "Master Of Ambush + Green Tide, and add a Void Shield Generator for extra fun."
-The earlier version of Special Forces simply allowed Elites to add an extra die to Leadership checks and discard a die of choice. Compared to the other bonuses, it was super-iffy. 
-The original bonus for CADs with a Fast Attack focus was "On Time, On Target:" Fast Attack units could reroll all rolls related to reserves (the reserves dice, scatter, outflank, etc). As opposed to making Fast Attack about mobile warfare, it made Fast Attack about "I materialize on the table and alpha-strike."

Comments, criticisms, potential horrid gamebreakers, or cool ideas are always appreciated.  :)

Offline Calamity

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2015, 08:53:01 PM »
I think this idea has a lot of potential!  It would certainly allow players to create fluffy armies with some balance.  My only issue is that some of the ideas presented (the HQ and Elites one especially) seem a tad OP, especially when compared to the troops one.

If I could make a suggestion, I'd limit High Command to just something like allowing the Warlord to do something like re-roll their warlord trait, or roll for two traits (even from the same list) or something like that to represent a high ranking and important leader.

For Special Forces, I'd limit it to just one USR, applied to all elite choices made by the player.  In my case, it could be Infiltrate for my Scions, or Furious Charge for Ogyrns.

Objective Secured is of course OK.  Maneuver Warfare seems OK, but there might be something better out there.  And Big Guns never tire is definitely fine by me.  Effective but not too powerful. :)

One last suggest I'd make is to reduce the required minimum to 2, to help out in smaller games.  All things aside, I really like this idea.  :)
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 08:54:39 PM by Tangi »

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2015, 09:03:45 PM »
The "No Duplicates" for the Elites USR is intentional. One unit of infiltrating Terminators/Infiltrating Dreadnoughts/etc is nowhere as powerful as having 6 such units, know what I mean? That said, I can easily see the USR selection being reduced to "Pick One." Playtesting will tell, of course.

All the CADs get the Reroll Warlord Trait by default. There are some combos there that could easily be...well, off. 3 Rerollable Warlord Traits on the Strategic Table for a Warboss (Can't forget that Finkin' Cap, after all)=Instant Waaaagh.

Good point on "Low Point" games. For games < 1000 points, you can adapt it to 2+2-hammer. :)

PS: Regarding Mobile Warfare, I might be tempted to change the D6" move to a flat 3", simply to shave off some extra dice rolls. Plus it would be a more reliable thing to plan around.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2015, 09:31:01 PM by MagicJuggler »

Offline Calamity

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2015, 09:43:39 PM »
I should have read your rules in closer detail.  My mistake.  ;D

I don't know if having a re-roll for them all is a good idea but honestly like you said, only play testing will tell.

And for Mobile Warfare, how about all FA gain Crusader (foot units) and vehicles/bikes gain +1 to flat out moves?

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2015, 04:42:23 AM »
I should have read your rules in closer detail.  My mistake.  ;D

I don't know if having a re-roll for them all is a good idea but honestly like you said, only play testing will tell.

And for Mobile Warfare, how about all FA gain Crusader (foot units) and vehicles/bikes gain +1 to flat out moves?

That's significantly less potent. The proposed rules would let them duck behind BLOS terrain after striking.

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2015, 06:23:17 PM »
Not just BLOS terrain, but it would allow them to kite outside assault range, or further spread out after Deep Strike, or just "Get into position" quicker.

In case Obsec itself isn't compelling enough, the alternate/supplemental idea for Troops (again, bearing testing) is Solid Foundation: Any Troops unit (including Dedicated Transports) gets a 20-point rebate on upgrades; this rebate cannot be used for buying the Dedicated Transport or adding more squad members, but *must* go into specials/wargear/etc upgrades. Give your Tactical Sergeant that Power Weapon you know he's always wanted.

Because they don't get wargear upgrades, Necron Troops reroll Reanimation Protocols rolls of 1, and Troop Dedicated Transports ignore shake/stun.

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2015, 01:26:12 PM »
Not just BLOS terrain, but it would allow them to kite outside assault range, or further spread out after Deep Strike, or just "Get into position" quicker.

In case Obsec itself isn't compelling enough, the alternate/supplemental idea for Troops (again, bearing testing) is Solid Foundation: Any Troops unit (including Dedicated Transports) gets a 20-point rebate on upgrades; this rebate cannot be used for buying the Dedicated Transport or adding more squad members, but *must* go into specials/wargear/etc upgrades. Give your Tactical Sergeant that Power Weapon you know he's always wanted.

Because they don't get wargear upgrades, Necron Troops reroll Reanimation Protocols rolls of 1, and Troop Dedicated Transports ignore shake/stun.

I really like this idea.  It gives you an excuse to hand out toxin sacs to gaunts and lets you slap an agonizer on a hekatrix for a less ridiculous cost.  The only issue I see there is that not all troops have upgrade options. Rangers, for instance.  I guess you could put your 20 points towards more bodies, but that seems far less cool than having well-equipped, well-rounded troopers.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2015, 03:49:12 PM »
I like this idea. Full disclosure, I think the entire Detachments / Alternate FOC / Formations spread across 5+ publications, for the same faction, is ridiculous.

I'd say there's an eloquence to this FOC build that is great, and still allows a wide variety of builds, and enforces a certain "core" to an army.

My opinion is that the benefits are currently imbalanced. ObSec on fragile, non-CC armies is next to useless. If I have 10 Guardsmen within 3" of... hell... 5 Tactical Marines, do you know how long they'll be there? Until the Marines shoot them and then assault. So, the duration of the game turn. On the other hand, something like Bike troops, that are fast, and tough, can swing onto an objective late game and reasonably expect to survive without being dislodged in a single turn.

The only suggestion that I have, is to try to make benefits that scale with the points being played. ObSec doesn't scale in any real way. Consider, that at the outset of a game, an army that gets a single special rule per unit faces off against one that gains Ob Sec. The special rules compound on one another, no matter if they're the same rules or not. I just build my army to take advantage of different rules. Stealth for Shooty Guys, fleet for Choppy guys. Ob Sec only kicks in at the end of the game, after both sides have put boot to ass on each other. No matter how large the game, I always seem to wind up with the same amount of duders left at the end. Makes sense, because both sides are killing each other at more or less the same rate. [Hopefully]

If we play 1000 points of dudes, and we both kill 90% of each other's armies, we have 100 points left to secure objectives. 2 or 3 [partial] units, maybe. If we play 2000 points, and we both kill 90% of each other's armies, we have 200 points left... 3 or 4 partial units, in all likelihood. So my possible extra unit to score with, at double the points, certainly doesn't scale the same way as free USR spam. The FA get to dance around all game, improving their kill power / damage reduction army wide. ObSec doesn't scale like that.

I love the core concept, I'm just not happy with the balance of bonuses. Troops are [Generally speaking, and aware of exceptions!] not as powerful as other elements of the army. They'd probably need the strongest "boost" to be considered a competitive choice.

In about 20 games of 7th edition [Only 2 Maelstrom, full disclosure.] ObSec has made a difference in 1 game. In one game, ObSec won my opponent the game because I failed a 4" charge roll on the 6th turn, and turn 7 didn't come around. We were on either side of an objective, and his 2 ObSec bikers didn't get annihilated by 3 charging TH SS Termies. In one game, a complete fluke allowed ObSec to be significant, and the 50% continuation roll failed.

ObSec is stupid, in a game where everything scores. :P Nobody's fault but GW's, but it's just a useless rule, in my mind.

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2015, 01:08:24 AM »
Obsec helped my opponent win his game against me tonight, but it is pretty situational.  Mobile armies can make better use of it than slow ones.  Eldar jetbikes, for instance, can boost over to an objective to steal it from non ob-sec units.  Transports are similarly helpful.

That said, I agree that an alternative would be nice.

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2015, 09:44:09 AM »
How about allowing your troop choices to be given a directive?  Directives are given at the start of the game. Could be some things like

Secure that position! Any troop squad may choose to re-roll a failed morale check.

Annihilate them! troop squads may re-roll failed attacks against other troop squads

leave them nowhere to run Any troop squad that makes it to the enemy back field, as required for linebacker, may score double the points

Move! Now! when running, troops may roll am extra die and select the one(s)  they want to use

Ready, aim, fire! Any troop squad that did not move in their turn, may fire twice in the shooting phase with all weapons except heavy. Must declare this before firing the first shots.  They may not move latter in their turn for any reason, other then failed morale checks, and may not go to ground
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2015, 10:41:07 AM »
Interesting concept. How would Directives interact with Orders, or Ultramarine Combat Tactics, among other such abilities?


I think the "Troop Rebate" is probably the safest bet though certain armies stand to benefit better than others. (Even with a reduced rebate, Guard would in theory be able to get a large discount on cheap platoons/infantry squads. Daemons don't get *any* transport options on the other hand...).

It's still rather tricky regardless.

Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2015, 12:55:41 PM »
I tried to make the directives not overlap with orders. I forgot about combat tactics though so perhaps there is some overlap there.

Those were just some examples of what directives could look. They can and should be tweaked. Directives, however, are chosen before the battle, before you see your enemies list. Orders and the like are more flexible and allow for you to respond to the situation at hand.
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: "3+3 Hammer", an overhaul of the Combined Arms Detachment.
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2015, 11:43:26 PM »
I've been pondering some additional changes since initially writing this, as well as having additional thoughts.

1) Removal of an HQ Focus. Never was too much of a fan of herohammer, and any ability based on "Adjusting random ability rolls" raises my hackles as I never was a fan of random abilities to begin with. :(
2) Splitting "HQ" into "HQ" and "Specialists" (akin to Lord/Hero division in fantasy); this would be a secondary change.
3) This one is (very) optional, but instituting some sort of "No more than 4 of a particular unit-choice" would be ideal.
4) Some FOC swaps would probably be of interest. The most immediate ones would probably be:

Tyranids: Moving Hive Guard to Heavy Support, Carnifex to Elites. ("Special Forces" represents unique biomorphs, etc).
Chaos: Cult Marine units to Troops, Forge/Maulerfiends to Elites.


 


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