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Offline Trunkhead

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Re:What?
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2002, 01:18:00 AM »
well i definetly agree that if you can make an army that can kill space marines, that army can probably defeat anything.  My army has a core of about 1300pts which do most of the 'work'.  I've changed the other 200pts about six times and have yet to find a combination I really like - i'd be remiss if I didnt' try the mandrakes too.  Also, those 1300pts dont' include ANY elites (1HQ, 2 Troops, 2 FA, 2HS) so getting slots for them isn't a problem.  I also still havn't tried the new wyches and i'm thinking they'll do the best out of the remaining options.
Problems I see w/ fielding 300pts of Mandrakes:
1. i have to shave 100pts off my core - not that big of a deal, but i like how they work now
2. Mandrakes arn't in position to do what you want them to do until turn three, when you have to reveal them - not sure how bad this is considering how increadibly mobile the rest of the force is
3.(and i think the biggest) i'm not sure I want to spend 300pts to basically take out half their point value.  Usually i dont' compare pts. vs. pts. but a 2 to 1 ration doesn't seem to make sense to me. Espically since Mandrakes use before and after achieving their goal seem's limited

a quick note in favor tho - Mandrake squads can move 29-34 inche's w/o getting fired at (3 turns at 6"(18"), models deploy w/in 4" of maker (22"), Assault 6" (28"), FoF 1-6" (29-34")....that HAS to be useful somehow
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Offline Tobab816

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Re:What?
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2002, 06:58:32 AM »
Tekno: When you field an army you always have to consider what are the critical choice. Meaning "where is the organisation chart going to pinch my ass".

For Vanilla Eldar its the Elite and HW choice...since SS, HBs and FDs are just so dam good. As well as the DR, WL and Falcon. Eldar on the other hand rarely fill up their FA, HQ or Troops choices.
When it comes to Alaitoc its the Elite and Troops choices that are the limit.
For a Space Wolves army its definitly the HQ and Elite choices that are the pinch.

For DE its the HW and FA choices(Reavers, Ravagers and Talos). RARELY does a DE player fill out its Elite choices. But more Therefor how many squads you use on the elite choice is quite irrelevant.
Deathball, the new game of bloody basketball, 40k style!

+++Excerpt from Last Chaos/Space marine game, commentator: Inquisitor Khalheed "The Purgator" Qhor, Ex-Deathball player+++

Chaos vs Space Marine grudgematch today ended 23-19 when Brother Grazieel decimated the chaos team with a heavy bolter.

Afterwards the Chaos Coach Zhuriel the Damned stated "If we weren't ideologically in favor of cheating we'd complain about this""
+++End of transmission+++

Offline Rhysk

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Re:What?
« Reply #42 on: February 22, 2002, 10:21:52 AM »
The only thing we have touched on for Mandrakes, is why killing 4 marines in Hth with 300 points of drakes is somehow better than wyches....

Consider the following using the new Wych rules...

9 regular wyches with "wych weapons" 108 points...
1 Succubus with Agonizer 21 points...
1 Raider with Disintigrator 60 points.

1st move 12"(Raider) + 2"(Deploy) + d6(FoF) (well say 3.5 average) + 6" (Charge) = 23.5" of movement...

In the shooting phase the Disintigrtor could kill between 0-4 marines...

The wyches charge with 27 regular attacks 9*3 and 4 agonizers attacks...

the Marines count as WS 2, the Wyches 4 so 2/3 of the 27 hit or 18, 1/3 wound so that's 6 and 2 fail the save. Then the succubus attacks 2.6 hits on average killing between 1-2 marines.

So with absolutley crap dice rolling we killed 3 marines. We also have not included random stat increases from wych combat drugs. On the high end we could get as many as 8 marines.  The average of 8 and 3 is 5.5...

On the rebound the marines need 5's I believe to hit. they get 7 attacks on the high end 2.1 hit, 1.4 wound .7 die.... so the marines get between 1-2 counter attack kills if we get three. If we get 8, they get 2 attacks, .667 hit, .444 wound, .222 die.

On the average they get 5 attacks 1.666 hit, 1 wounds, .5 die....

So we can say on average we would kill 5 marines without combat drugs rolls. In return they get less than one of us. Sounds like a route to me...

Total cost 189 points... For the less points cost we still get two chances to occupy table quarters, and higher potential kill ratios. This doesn't even consider that potentially these marines died first turn instead of third. So the effect they could have is reduced.

I still stand by the motto that you should leave the Mandrakes on the Peg board at your local hobby store and buy the wyches and Raiders...
"Victurus te Saluto!" (He who is about to win salutes you)

Offline Tobab816

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Re:What?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2002, 11:40:19 AM »
Also, recognise that those wyches could be blown skyhigh on the first turn making your 189p not kill anything. 300p on mandrakes is 300p garanteed to reach the enemy lines intact unless the bastard decides to retreat....and in that case the Mandrakes has served their purpose anyway by forcing him to sacrifice firepower.

Also you can only occupy 1 zone as the Raider/Wych squad counts as 1 unit.
Deathball, the new game of bloody basketball, 40k style!

+++Excerpt from Last Chaos/Space marine game, commentator: Inquisitor Khalheed "The Purgator" Qhor, Ex-Deathball player+++

Chaos vs Space Marine grudgematch today ended 23-19 when Brother Grazieel decimated the chaos team with a heavy bolter.

Afterwards the Chaos Coach Zhuriel the Damned stated "If we weren't ideologically in favor of cheating we'd complain about this""
+++End of transmission+++

Offline Rhysk

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Re:What?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2002, 11:58:07 AM »
Most, and I will admit most of the time, you should be able to find a bulinding or something to hide behind for the first turn of shooting. Than you cruise towards your enemies and smite them.

I tend to play the DE extremely agressive. I like to cruise forward with the whole army deploy first turn and present the enemy with far too many targets to handle. Anyone than can make it to Hth first turn ties up a unit that wont shoot back. Plus by deploying all Raider squads first turn, you double up the number of targets the enemy has to shoot at.  Becuase each enemy unit can only fire at the troops or the Raider...


Once you deploy your Wyches from the Raider it is free to go where it chooses. Just like SM rhino's and Land Raiders and the like... If it ends up in another table quarter, then that quarter can be claimed by the Raider...
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Offline cu_sapper

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Critical choice?
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2002, 11:58:09 AM »
You've got to be kidding.  HS and FA are the DE 'cricitacl spots'  I for one never field a fast attack unit.  The bikes were overpiced to only recieve one attack and yes I know they get an invulnerable save yada, yada, yada.  But if they take that invulnerable save then they can't fight that turn.  As to Heavy Support.  Talos are awesome, wish they were fast enough to field--got one he always stays at home.  Ravagers are neat but they rob your force of flexibility and mobility and we all know speed and mobility are the combat multiplier the average Dark Eldar force relies on (That's why I only take one).  Scourges.....and I thought that Space Wolves HQs were a point sink. Scourges are more unreliable and more costly than those mandrakes.  Yeah them deepstriking is beautiful but how many times have they come a round or four too late for you?

Mandrakes--I've used them to good success but I don't use them so much to tie up a squad.  I use them to block line of sight.  Hit some troops in key points and suddenly your raiders have a corridor through which they can't be  shot.  Mandrakes will normally last at least one turn and with an army like ours that's plenty of time to pile off a load of wyches, incubi, grotesques, warriors--whatever your preference and dogpile the enemy.  Grotesques also fulfill this role excellently but you actually have to fly them there so if they lose their raider you lose your combat multiplier.  Mandrakes are not worth their point value but when used effectively they can multiply the worth of every other unit on the table.

I personally think the most beautiful unit in the dark eldar army is the Raider Squad with Splinter Cannon.  It mixes mobility with the ability to handle any threat armored or infantry.  It's life and death is balanced on a razor edge but that's why I always take 4 or more even in a 1200 point game.  I personally love the incubi squad as well but was getting tired of their raider being consumed in flames.  That was, untill I realized I could shield it with other raiders and with a strategically placed melee put into effect by my mandrakes.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2002, 11:59:18 AM by cu_sapper »

Offline Tobab816

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Re:What?
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2002, 12:20:35 PM »
Well, for every person who complains that bikes are overpriced. Try comparing them with Assultmarines.
Also consider that Reavers are more important in a DE army than they would have been in a spacemarine army and are also more "in theme".

SAME PRICE! Yet in my mind its always the Reavers that comes out on top in question of usefulness.
Deathball, the new game of bloody basketball, 40k style!

+++Excerpt from Last Chaos/Space marine game, commentator: Inquisitor Khalheed "The Purgator" Qhor, Ex-Deathball player+++

Chaos vs Space Marine grudgematch today ended 23-19 when Brother Grazieel decimated the chaos team with a heavy bolter.

Afterwards the Chaos Coach Zhuriel the Damned stated "If we weren't ideologically in favor of cheating we'd complain about this""
+++End of transmission+++

Offline Rhysk

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Re:What?
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2002, 01:52:34 PM »
I can't see anything wrong with paying 25 points for a "troop" that gets the following...

12" move and 1 shot at 24" or two at 12"
Combat drugs that randomly increase stats.
The same basic profile as a SM
The ability to get an invulnerable save and move 24"
Can carry hawwire grenades, power weapons, etc on something that moves this fast.
Finally can carry the equivalent of a lascannon acrross the board pop a tank and then assualt troops in the same turn...

25 points is a freakin deal...Even 30 points was a deal for all that ability..

One question, can Reavers be used to screen raiders?
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Offline Karakth

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Re:What?
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2002, 02:34:02 PM »
I've only got 1 squad of reavers (4 bikes) but they are still really useful. As for my 2 cents,  I think all DE units are extremely useful, you just have to come up with a good strategy to use them to their full potential. Maybe with the Mandrakes, we just can't see their potential yet...

BTW does anyone know if 40K 4ed is coming out?
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Offline cu_sapper

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Re:What?
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2002, 04:24:34 PM »
I can understand why you would take reavers. (I wouldn't take assault marines usually either--as an aside) but I do not like them.  I feel they're not quite flexible enough.  To be honest every army I play I end up with lots of troops tooled out with nifty transports.  May have to do with the "speed is life",  the flexibility, and the infantry is the basis for all combat ideal that have been slammed into my head by our dear old Uncle Sam. Now, If we could just find some good ol' engineers we'd be set.  Wouldnt' you love to lay and breach minefields and wire obstacles in game?


Offline Tekno

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Re:What?
« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2002, 04:31:29 PM »

One question, can Reavers be used to screen raiders?


Unfortunately, no.  Heavy weapons troops get the choice on which to shoot, since raiders are twice the size.  The best way to screen raiders is to use other raiders :)  Nothing else can keep up.  I can see you charging both of them in, take the pick your poison route.  Shoot down the raiders, the jetbikes will be all over you.  Shootdown the jetbikes, all that nastiness inside the raider will be on top of you.  Or if your space marines, shoot down the reavers AND the raiders, then laugh at the poor bastard who chose DE! lol  

Tekno
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Offline Rhysk

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Re:What?
« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2002, 05:18:11 PM »
Cu-sapper


How much more flexibility do you need?

Take Blasters and bust tanks, take Shredders and kill troops, take a succubus with power weapon and rock in HtH, Move 24" and flank the heck out of the enemy, move 12" shoot 24", move 12" shoot 12" twice, take hawire grenades and bust tanks in HTH... Based on the combat drugs roll they can fill any roll in the army...

What fast attack role would you have them fill cu_sapper, that they can't already do?
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Offline Trunkhead

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Re:What?
« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2002, 05:24:30 PM »
wow so much to respond too

I agree that FA are critical to MY DE army, i take 10 Hellions and 7-10 Reavers.  It's very important to my army cause i'm so sick of seeing DE armies w/ 6 raiders and loads of warriors, I can not think of a more boring army to play (maybe Tau).  So I need to be able to keep w/ the DE strength (speed) while not using a bunch of Raiders - this equals a ton of FA and fits my mentality as a general very well.
Sapper - I was in the infantry (82nd to be exact) and I take from your comments and name that you were an Engineer so we come from the same background.  That being said, I love my Reavers, they are a ton more flexible than normal infantry, being fast and lethal AND tougher than our basic troop.  I think lots of people misuse reavers, depending on that toughness and invlunerable save to get a small unit (which should always be at least 7 strong) accross the field to a key point - asinine. The need to utilize cover and be supported just like any other unit.  I can understand w/ your background why you dont' like assault marines - but remember this is a game and not real life, and for some reason GW thinks that warfare in the 40th millenium will revert to HtH, as stupid as that seems to you and I.
Scourges - i love my scourges and won't even entertain the notion of going to battle w/o them.  The secret is not to deepstrike them, you want to use that much firepower from turn one, and not wait until 2nd turn if your lucky.  Hide these behind a screen of Hellions and you have a mobile fire base (espically w/ their new 5++ save).  Give the hellion succubus terrofex and your fairly safe from assaults
Talos - Model looks cool, i use him to protect my warrior mobs w/ DL's and the back of the field.  People think twice before coming at my Warrior squads, terrofex usually freeze's them in place, two shredders, 2 DL's and whatever # of rapid fire SRifles i can get in. And if they get past that they have to deal w/ the Talos - very scary
Karakth - here's an easy way to remember about blocking LOS - Models NEVER block LOS to vehicles (bikes, talos, WL's are all models) and vehicles ALWAYS block LOS to anything.
Rhysk - I agree about the wyches, i was thinking about this last nite. but your math is pretty off
you -
9 regular wyches with "wych weapons" 108 points...
1 Succubus with Agonizer 21 points...
1 Raider with Disintigrator 60 points.
except in your HtH model you use the new rules so the points SHOULD look like this
10 regular wyches with "wych weapons" 140 points...
1 Succubus ugrade with Agonizer 30 points...
1 Raider with Disintigrator 60 points.
Wyches are 12 points + 2 per wyche weapons
succubs is an upgrade which means he costs 20ps, plus his agonizer and he still has to uprade to wyche weapons. So really this units costs 230pts not 189.
Also WS 2 vs. WS 4 hits on 4+, not 5+, so the marines are going to hurt you a bit more unless you happen to get the +1WS roll on your drug roll, in which case they would need 5+ to hit.
However this is still a VERY nasty unit at pretty damn good price.  Imagine the look on a Space Marine's face when his 15pt Assault marines are reduced to 1 attack per, w/ ws2 AND he has to go second?? Then he doesn't kill nearly as many guys as he's used too due to a 4++ save.....i can't wait to make my first SM opponent cry, bring on the Blood Angels and Black Templars!
You know what I'll say when I see God?
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Offline cu_sapper

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Re:What?
« Reply #53 on: February 22, 2002, 05:25:15 PM »
They can do everything but only out to 12" that in and of itself limits their flexibility significantly.  I understand that they can move and shoot  but its not the same.--Besides I have to justify avoiding the highway robbery that is Games Workshop on certain models  ;D  

Seriously, you have something that has to close to 12" to put out firepower and as a result must expose itself to every type of fire the enemy has to get off a shot.  Or I can launch attacks at vehicles at 48" and shoot up to 24" (with an assault 4) and carry troops.  I think reavers should be included in an army if you have a use for them  in the grand scheme but I just don't believe that in straight combat power they match up with an equal point value of other troops.  But then I think that about most highly priced unit.  The unit isn't worth it.  But, if you can fold it into your strategy in a way that multiplies the effectiveness of the force as a whole then you have a worthwhile unit and a justified points cost.  But if you're including them for a specific reason you're forced to ask...can I accomplish the same thing for fewer points?

 


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