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Offline $ick

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First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« on: May 17, 2005, 03:31:00 AM »
I am a noobie to the guard and this is my first try at a list. I have explained at the bottom what the list is about and how I intend to use it.

HQ

Command Squad - Junior Officer, 4 guardsmen with 4 plasma guns

Fire Support - 1
6 Guard
3 Autocannons

Fire Support - 2
6 Guard
3 Autocannons

Anti-tank Support - 1
6 Guard
3 Lascannons

Anti-tank Support - 2
6 Guard
3 Lascannons

Infantry PLatoon - 1

Command - Junior Officer, 4 Guardsmen, 4 Plasma Guns

Anti-tank Support - 3
6 Guard
3 Missile Launches

Anti-tank Support - 4
6 Guard
3 Missile Launches

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

Infantry PLatoon - 2

command - Junior Officer, 4 Guard, 4 Plasma Guns

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Missile Launcher

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Missile Launcher

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Missile Launcher

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant

Infantry Platoon - 3

Command - Junior officer, 4Guard, 4 Plasma Guns

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant

Heavy Supprt

Leman Russ - Battle Cannon, Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter, Side Sponson Heavy Bolters

Leman Russ - Battle Cannon, Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter, Side Sponson Heavy Bolters

Basilisk - Indirect fire




OK, thats it. My first quirey is that it mite not be legal, if it is not can someone please tell me. The idea is that the platoons form three lines of defence with the heavy weapons scattered around. The tanks sit at the back and fire. The Junior Officers with their plasma gunners all stand behind the second line of defence as after then first line have been whiped out they are there to mop up any unfinished CC troops as they charge the second line. If the enemy makes it to the second line the plasma gunners retreat back behind the thirrd line and follow the same tactic. The only tactic this army really can do is holod tight and shoot.

I still have over a hundren points left to spare, can anyone suggest what i do with them? I was thinking maybe sum guys with demo charges on the front line to counter the first assult with a suicude bomb attack. Or maybe sum commisars or vox boxes? Im not sure?

All help suggestions and comments would be greatly appriciated. Thankyou for your time.

Offline Captain Aurillien

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2005, 03:53:34 AM »
Firstly - You need to cheak your codex for this not too sure but i think you can only take 2 spec weaps in any command squads.
        -You cannot take heavy weapon surport squads in your infantry squads. It states that i consists o 1 junior officer and his staff and between 2 and 5 infantry squads. The heavy weapon surports squads can only be bought buy a command platoon.

Other than that there are a few other things you need to think through but im too tried now. 8)
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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2005, 05:29:29 AM »
I am a noobie to the guard and this is my first try at a list. I have explained at the bottom what the list is about and how I intend to use it.

HQ

Command Squad - Junior Officer, 4 guardsmen with 4 plasma guns

===> Okay, but I'd strongly reommend replacing one of the Plasma Gunners with a Medic thus giving your other three guns a better chance of avoiding frying themselves ;)

Quote
Fire Support - 1
6 Guard
3 Autocannons

Fire Support - 2
6 Guard
3 Autocannons

Anti-tank Support - 1
6 Guard
3 Lascannons

Anti-tank Support - 2
6 Guard
3 Lascannons

===> Okay, fragile but used carefully (cover and fire arcs) should be fine.

Quote
Infantry PLatoon - 1

Command - Junior Officer, 4 Guardsmen, 4 Plasma Guns

===> Again, a Medic replacing one of the Gunners comes recommended.

Quote
Anti-tank Support - 3
6 Guard
3 Missile Launches

Anti-tank Support - 4
6 Guard
3 Missile Launches

===> No, Heavy Weapons Squads can only form part of a Command Platoon (that is a HQ choice) or a Heavy Weapons Platoon (the Heavy Support Choice) they do not form part of Infantry Platoons as this is. I'd suggest replacing these two Squads with Infantry Squads with Lascannon to give you a little extra better protected AT Firepower.

Quote
9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

===> Okay, here I'd add Special Weapons to bolster your firpower, my personal choice of the moment for pairing up with Heavy Bolters is Plasma Guns this giving the squad a low AP weapon, alternatively Grenade Launchers are your other best choice but these may be best paired with your later mobile squads IMHO.

Quote
Infantry PLatoon - 2

command - Junior Officer, 4 Guard, 4 Plasma Guns

===> Again, a Medic replacing one of the Gunners comes recommended.

Quote
9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Missile Launcher

===> Switch this one to another Heavy Bolter and againing pairing it up with a Plasma Gun (or Grenade Launcher).

Quote
9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Missile Launcher

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Missile Launcher

===> With your Lascannon you've a goot amount of high end AT firepower, I'd suggest switching these two to Autocannon instead giving you a better mid-low range AT Weapon.

===>Special Weapon choice here could be Plasma (same strength as the Autocannon making it a good pairing) or the Grenade Launcher which as usual is a reliable workhorse though its lack of multiple shots happers it a little. I'd probably take Plasma again personly.

Quote
9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant

===> I'm gonna suggest dropping this Squad so we can better equip your other Infantry Squads, IMHO you should include Special Weapons to boost the firepower output of your core Infantry - certainly IMHO it will serve you better then an extra 10 Guardsmen with Lasguns in this case.

Quote
9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant

===> This unit could be dropped to a Remanents Squad 8 Strong with Grenade Launcher and switched to the 3rd Platoon to provide a little mobile Infantry/Firepower.

Quote
Infantry Platoon - 3

Command - Junior officer, 4Guard, 4 Plasma Guns

===> Again, a Medic replacing one of the Gunners comes recommended.

Quote
9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant

===> Again, Grenade Launchers for both these squads for mobile Infantry/Firepower.

Quote
Heavy Supprt

Leman Russ - Battle Cannon, Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter, Side Sponson Heavy Bolters

Leman Russ - Battle Cannon, Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter, Side Sponson Heavy Bolters

===> Fine

Quote
Basilisk - Indirect fire

===> Okay, keep in mind the minimum range of Indirect Fire and deploy to best suit this, once your opponent gets in minimum range (and believe me they wil often try) be prepared to use the 'lisk directly instead, but be careful when doing this its obviously very fragile, keep fire arcs too and from it restricted, ideally you'd only see your target and no other enemy unit would see you.

Quote
OK, thats it. My first quirey is that it mite not be legal, if it is not can someone please tell me.

===> Once those two Missile Launcher AT Squads are gone yes it is.

Quote
The idea is that the platoons form three lines of defence with the heavy weapons scattered around. The tanks sit at the back and fire. The Junior Officers with their plasma gunners all stand behind the second line of defence as after then first line have been whiped out they are there to mop up any unfinished CC troops as they charge the second line. If the enemy makes it to the second line the plasma gunners retreat back behind the thirrd line and follow the same tactic. The only tactic this army really can do is holod tight and shoot.

===> Remember that screening is no longer an effective tactic, make use of cover as avaiable, and dont go into combat except with a significant advantage in numbers.

Quote
I still have over a hundren points left to spare, can anyone suggest what i do with them? I was thinking maybe sum guys with demo charges on the front line to counter the first assult with a suicude bomb attack. Or maybe sum commisars or vox boxes? Im not sure?

===> You've gone Guardsmen heavy, I'd probably be tempted to stick with this with any remaining points, perhaps expand upon your third Platoon a little, my inclanation and recommendation however would be to add some assault units that you can really kick back with, a couple of small squads of Roughriders with Hunting Lances would serve you quite well, hold em back behind your lines and should a nasty assault unit get close enough to be threatening without a hope of using firepower alone to stop them charge em on in there stall em for a turn or more if your lucky! If you need any extra odd points you could always shrink down 3rd Platoons Remanents Squad a little more.

===> Another options would be too make use of Docturines, as is (inc. Roughriders) you'd use 1 Docturine, you could add Close Order Drill to make your troops that little bit more prickly in combat and maybe Drop Troops as a sometimes useful option, both of which are free, Iron Discipline for your Officers always comes in highly rated also and is very cheap. Of course its down to you and should really be picked to fit with your background.

Quote
All help suggestions and comments would be greatly appriciated. Thankyou for your time.

*tips hat*

And just to clear this up...

Firstly - You need to cheak your codex for this not too sure but i think you can only take 2 spec weaps in any command squads.

===> You can indeed take more then two Special Weapins in a Command Squad.

Offline $ick

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2005, 11:27:45 AM »
Excellent, Thanks guys, Ill post up the re drafted list wen i got sum time.

Offline $ick

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2005, 04:15:31 AM »
OK, Heres the re-drafted version.


HQ


Command Squad 1 - Junior Officer, 4 guardsmen with 4 plasma guns

Fire Support - 1
6 Guard
3 Autocannons

Fire Support - 2
6 Guard
3 Autocannons

Anti-tank Support - 1
6 Guard
3 Lascannons

Anti-tank Support - 2
6 Guard
3 Lascannons


Command Squad 2 - Junior Officer, 4 guardsmen with 4 plasma guns

Fire Support - 3
6 Guard
3 Missile Launches

Fire Support - 4
6 Guard
3 Missile Launches


Troops

Infantry Platoon - 1

Command - Junior Officer, 4 guardsmen with 4 plasma guns

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter


Infantry Platoon -2

Command - Junior Officer, 4 guardsmen with 4 plasma guns

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter


Infantry Platoon - 3

Command - Junior Officer, 4 guardsmen with 4 plasma guns

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant


Heavy Support


Leman Russ Battle Tank - Battle Cannon, Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter, Side Sponson Heavy Bolters

Leman Russ Demolisher - Demolisher Cannon, Hull Mounted Lascannon, Side Sponson Plasma Cannons, Extra Armour

Basilisk - Indirect Fire


There we go, this come to just over 2000pts. The tactics remain the same except now the Demolisher holds one of the flanks and is ready to drive up front to deter any assults on the fron line. The plasma gunners remain the same, I chose not to put in a medic because I figure that I'de rather have another dead space marine than a living guardsmen. Infantry Platoon - 3 is there to stand on the front line and die, they are there to slow the first assult down, ready for the plasma gunners to mop up.

Again, any comments, help or suggestions would be greatly appriciated. Thanx for your time guys.

Offline Koonitz

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2005, 09:31:32 AM »
Command Squad 1 - Junior Officer, 4 guardsmen with 4 plasma guns

Fire Support - 1
6 Guard
3 Autocannons

Fire Support - 2
6 Guard
3 Autocannons

Anti-tank Support - 1
6 Guard
3 Lascannons

Anti-tank Support - 2
6 Guard
3 Lascannons


Command Squad 2 - Junior Officer, 4 guardsmen with 4 plasma guns

Fire Support - 3
6 Guard
3 Missile Launches

Fire Support - 4
6 Guard
3 Missile Launches

Face it, you aren't going to get your heavy weapons teams unless you drop a tank or your artillery support, as this is illegal.
Please read page 37 of Codex Guard, second column, the paragraph with the bold Unit Name: at the start of it. Then reread the Unit Name of the Command Platoon. While you're at it, reread the rest of page 37... Just in case.

Do not be alarmed, however, as the loss of one of your heavy support vehicles would not be a bad thing. Why? Because your choices are pretty much what would be refered to as the "N00b" heavy support. Almost every single newbie takes that exact setup (less the extra armour on the Demolisher, I suppose....). Changing this will likely not hurt you....
« Last Edit: May 18, 2005, 09:36:54 AM by Koonitz »
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Offline Col.Gravis

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2005, 10:04:22 AM »
*nods* As Koonitz implied, your second HQ Platoon (and its Squads) are not an option, a Command Platoon is a '1' choice, hence only one is allowed, the only places you may field Heavy Weapons Squads is in your single Command Platoon or in a Heavy Weapons Platoon, its not a huge loss to lose a Tank though if you took this route I'd suggest the Basilisk as going, until this is corrected previous comments given apply with regards to Plasma Gun Command Squads an Medic, Infantry Squad Special Weapons, some well protected (Infantry Squad) AT Weapons would be a good choice also.

Offline wper34

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2005, 04:13:49 PM »
As stated already about how the list is illegal to play wit that 2 HQ... (You can have only 1 HQ command squad by all mean)

I would also suggest to get rid of the Bassilisk as it is only good on a large board. That should give you lots of pts which can be used to get many kinds of things like more special weapons & upgrading the hvy bolters to other long range hvy weapons for all of your infantry squads. You could try to get something in the other troops choice that you fancy like Hardend Veterans (Vets), Storm troopers (Stormies), or anything in the fast attack choice. Again, this is up to you.

For the 4 plasmaguns... I agree with Col.Gravis that you should have a medic in the squads as overheating from using 4 plamas can kill your men quickly & cause the pts to be lost for both plasmaguns and the guardsmen who hold the wep. The use of 4 plasmas is good when the squads are designed to be suicidal units with either deepstirke OR infiltrate as they can really kill a lot of things quickly to earn their pts. In your army, it is more wise to go for long lasting units as you should not put them to be suicidal.

Quote
Troops

Infantry Platoon - 1

Command - Junior Officer, 4 guardsmen with 4 plasma guns

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter


Infantry Platoon -2

Command - Junior Officer, 4 guardsmen with 4 plasma guns

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

9 Guardsmen, 1 Sergeant, 1 Heavy Bolter

Personally, I would suggest to drop out 1 infantry squads with hvy bolters from both Infantry platoons 1 & 2 to get some pts. The pts could be spent into the special weapons for the infantry units such as... (Meltaguns are not advisable due to short range)

- Hvy bolter + Plasma for anti-infantry both tough units & weak units.
- Hvy bolter + Flamer for anti-horde especially aganist CC units in close range. (Generally Nids or Orks) Becareful with enemy fast units with this combo.
- Hvy bolter + Grenade Launcher (GL) for versatility in tactical mobile units if you need to move the infantry to certain location & use them for supporting the other units against horde army. (And GL is cheap)

This way, you still get to keep your command squad with the 4 plasma without having to drop the whole 3rd infantry platoon. (I was about to suggest drop out the whole 3rd platoon but see that you wouls stick to the 4 plasmas)

It is a good idea not to put all of your hvy long-range weps into the small squads of 6 men as they are very fragile. So I would strongly advice you to have some of your hvy bolters to be replace with either Missile Lauchers, Autocan, or Lascan. Perhaps switch the hvy bolters into the Hvy wep teams. That way you can pack more shots with the 6 men & spread the other hvy weps inot the nermal infantry squads for survival of the long-range hvy weps.

Quote
Heavy Support


Leman Russ Battle Tank - Battle Cannon, Hull Mounted Heavy Bolter, Side Sponson Heavy Bolters

Leman Russ Demolisher - Demolisher Cannon, Hull Mounted Lascannon, Side Sponson Plasma Cannons, Extra Armour

Basilisk - Indirect Fire

As stated already about the Bassilisk (Bassie), drop it out entirely. Also, you should reconsider to replace the sponson Plasma Cannons as they make the LR Demo a bit too high in pts. In any 2000 pts game, Hvy tanks usually do not last very long as there will be a lot of hvy weps for anti-tank which can destroy your vehicles easily. So generally, it is a good idea to make the Hvy tanks cheap a bit in pts. When the Hvy tanks are being used, you should be careful with them as they can still be destroyed no matter how tough they can be...

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Offline $ick

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2005, 03:06:31 AM »
Cool, Thanx for your comments.

The thing with the plasma gunners is that they are suicide sqauads, they are my main weapon of defence against anyone who charges my front line, as I said before, I would rather have one dead space marine than one dead guardsmam. The medic to me doesnt actually seem that inviting either, he only lets you re-roll armour save doesn't he?

On putting the bolters in the squads, I thought about putting heavy weapons in my infantry platoons but then I thought all my lasgun fore would be lost if I needed to shoot a tank. The heavy weapoons are gona be hidden behind the lines of infantry so they should be ok.

I chose the bassie, although It seems im gona have to drop it anyway, because my board is big, actually its huge (4ft by 8ft). Its a three man job to move the thing. But then again a battle cannon is 72" so I should be ok.

I think I will definatly drop the plasma cannons on the Demolisher, I mite even change the Demolisher back to a normal Leman Russ, not sure yet.

Thanx again for all your comments, I'll re-draft the list again and re-post it.

Offline Col.Gravis

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2005, 01:34:11 PM »
Cool, Thanx for your comments.

The thing with the plasma gunners is that they are suicide sqauads, they are my main weapon of defence against anyone who charges my front line, as I said before, I would rather have one dead space marine than one dead guardsmam.

===> I can see your line of thinking, but look at it this way:

Assuming you get off 8 shots rapid fire: (all figures rounded to the nearest whole)

Without Medic
Turn 1 = 3.3 Dead SMs & 1.7 Dead Guardsmen
(Assuming then the greater chance of two dead Guardsmen)
Turn 2 = 1.7 Dead SMs & 0.8 Dead Guardsmen

With Medic
Turn 1 = 2.5 Dead SMs & 0.3 Dead Guardsmen
(Assuming then the greater chance of no dead Guardsmen)
Turn 2 = 2.5 Dead SMs & 0.3 Dead Guardsmen

The chances are (assuming my maths is'nt *that* bad lol) on average your opponent would'nt have lose any extra Marines, but you'd be perhaps as many as two Guardsmen up.

Quote
The medic to me doesnt actually seem that inviting either, he only lets you re-roll armour save doesn't he?

===> Not so, we can't actually post the rules however if I refer you to the codex entry for the Medi-Pack on page 35 of the codex you'll find it infact alot more useful, also its worth noting for the sake of completeness I forget the location of the clarification but a armour save which is not taken as a result of the AP of a weapon (e.g. Bolt Gun on Flak Armour) is considered a failed save.

Quote
On putting the bolters in the squads, I thought about putting heavy weapons in my infantry platoons but then I thought all my lasgun fore would be lost if I needed to shoot a tank. The heavy weapoons are gona be hidden behind the lines of infantry so they should be ok.

===> Remember Screening is not a reliable concept in 4th ed as it once was, if your opponent has the range the chances are he will take out your Hevay Weapons Squads first no matter how many lines of Infantry you put between him and them, also, many Hevay Weapons are flexible enough to be useful against both Tanks and Troops, you'd waste some Lasguns agaisnt vehicles yes, but the greater protection provided for these weapons pays off dividends.

Quote
I chose the bassie, although It seems im gona have to drop it anyway, because my board is big, actually its huge (4ft by 8ft). Its a three man job to move the thing. But then again a battle cannon is 72" so I should be ok.

===> Okay, though I think this was more a suggestion to allowing you to get extra Heavy Weapons Squads if you so wished - personnly I'd keep the 'lisk and put more heavy weapons in the Infantry.

Quote
I think I will definatly drop the plasma cannons on the Demolisher, I mite even change the Demolisher back to a normal Leman Russ, not sure yet.

===> IMHO a Demolisher is a good solid choice which I'd retain, though I'd not lose any sleep over losing the Plasma Cannon sponsons.

Quote
Thanx again for all your comments, I'll re-draft the list again and re-post it.

===> Will keep me eyes open ;)

Offline $ick

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2005, 09:58:32 AM »
I'm facing a dilema now, What in your experiances had proved to be more worth it.

A Basilisk OR 6 heavy bolters.

I can only take one. I know the basilisk had a greater range but is not as reliable as the bolters as it could easily scatter and cause no damage at all.

I already have two tanks in the list, should I take this third?

Offline Col.Gravis

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2005, 10:33:24 AM »
I we talking a Heavy Weapons Platoon or additional Heavy Weapons for your Squads?

If it was a Heavy Weapons Platoon I'd probably favour that option personnly but not at the expence of Heavy Weapons in Infantry Squads which I feel should be present alota the time, otherwise then its a hdrer decision IMHO.

Your best bet is to draw up too alternative lists an go from there, if you have maybe post em up here again?

Offline wper34

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2005, 05:02:00 PM »
So you are having a difficulty in your decision...

If you are talking about the 6 Hvy bolters in 2 Hvy wep teams, then I would go with the 6 hvy bolters rather than taking the Bassie.(Basilisk) If it is not that case... I would have a hard time thinking about this myself.

Perhaps, you could post an improved list in here like Col.Gravis suggested...

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2005, 07:28:03 AM »
Yea, I'm working on the improved list at the mo, should be posted here soon. The option is either 6 heavy bolters in two heavy weapons squads as a heavy support choice or the bassie. Thats what Im having problems over.

Offline Col.Gravis

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Re: First 2000pt Guard List - NEED HELP
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2005, 09:59:18 AM »
Okay, well what foe to you face the most?

Also do your opponents make use of Indirect Fire weapons themselves often?

 


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