Topic: Fire Caste High Command - 5th Edition Codex Tau

[+++CLASSIFIED+++]

Greetings Shas'O. 

This is the first topic in a series of discussions relating to aspects of Tau tactics & strategy.

:: 5th Edition Codex Tau ::

As we all anticipate the revision of the Tau codex for 5th edition 40K, let's discuss some aspects of the army which we are happy with and don't want to see changed and which elements we consider are desperately in need of revision/over-haul and which units we would love to see scrapped.


-My considerations-

Ethereals:
Mostly useless, only provide a Ld bonus and are more useful dead for the benefit this provides.
BS 4 honour guard are a useful extra unit of Firewarriors but provide minimal protection to their Aun.
Ethereals really need re-adressing.

Kroot:
In their current incarnation Kroot Carnivores are typically used as shock troops and cannon fodder or as a distraction element. In 5th edition I would expect to see Fieldcraft replaced by more useful universal special rules such as Stealth and Move Through Cover. This means that Kroot would recieve a cover save regardless of the terrain they are in which would mitigate their low armour save.

Vespids:
Stingwings are drastically in need of revision. In their current incarnation Vespids have the Fleet rule which classes them as assault troops - a role for which they are ill-equipped. In some ways Stingwings are similar to Dark Eldar Scouges but in most cases the Scourges will run rings around them.

Gun Drones:
Gun Drone Squadrons are in many ways useless and in my experience rarely used. I think they are a waste of space on the list and I would love to see them scrapped.

Piranhas:
I think the codex Piranha should be replaced by Forge World's superior TX-42 Piranha. The TX-42 features better front/side armour and it's twin-linked weapons are more acurate and more useful than gun drones. Sadly though, I somehow doubt that GW will bother. If you ever play against me though - expect a squadron or two of TX-42's, they're awesome!

Rail Rifles:
The rail rifle is simply a long range pinning weapon useful against power armoured opponents. This is a far cry from the sniper rifle it is intended to be. The most obvious improvement to this weapon would be the inclusion of the Sniper rule which would allow it to pick off specific targets.

Sky Rays:
The major down-side of these gunships are their limited supply of seeker missiles and their short range (36") in the absence of infantry markerlight hits. This means that to fire it's own missiles the Sky Ray's range is a pitiful 36" which is too close for a Tau gunship. This also means that the Sky Ray is only ever a support element with a limited supply of seeker missiles.
To amend this problem for 5th ed. I would prefer to see the Sky Ray's seeker missile quantity increased to an unlimited supply but it can only fire 4 per turn. I would also recommend increasing the range of the gunship's markerlights to a respectable 48".



What are your thoughts?
What elements would you like to see changed?

[Kaiizen]

There's a fine line between thoughtful discussion and wish listing. Wish lists are generally frowned upon as they rarely (if ever) constructive. Bottom line here is to tread carefully.

Kroot:
In their current incarnation Kroot Carnivores are typically used as shock troops and cannon fodder or as a distraction element. In 5th edition I would expect to see Fieldcraft replaced by more useful universal special rules such as Stealth and Move Through Cover. This means that Kroot would recieve a cover save regardless of the terrain they are in which would mitigate their low armour save.

This actually seems likely based on the rumors I have seen. There are also rumors of access to more wargear but nothing solid, I wouldn't even attempt to speculate on what they night be given. I doubt they will have the same range of options given to them in the old Kroot Mercenaries Codex.

Piranhas:
I think the codex Piranha should be replaced by Forge World's superior TX-42 Piranha. The TX-42 features better front/side armour and it's twin-linked weapons are more acurate and more useful than gun drones. Sadly though, I somehow doubt that GW will bother. If you ever play against me though - expect a squadron or two of TX-42's, they're awesome!

There's nothing wrong with stock Piranha as they are, they are fast and modestly reliable as tank hunters when taken with redundancy. The TX-42 is not really any more difficult to kill than a standard piranha, they still have 11 front but also gain that bonus to side armor. I don't recall the points difference but sometimes you have to shave points off in places.

Rail Rifles:
The rail rifle is simply a long range pinning weapon useful against power armoured opponents. This is a far cry from the sniper rifle it is intended to be. The most obvious improvement to this weapon would be the inclusion of the Sniper rule which would allow it to pick off specific targets.

I have to disagree that the railrifle was intended to be a sniper rifle. The railrifle is simply a miniaturized version of the railgun and at a glance appears to be a bit larger and bulkier than a sniper rifle, it also likely fires a larger round. The idea wasn't necessarily to give tau a sniper weapon so much as a long range weapon capable of popping light vehicles and heavy infantry, in that role it performs just as intended.

I think there might also be a little confusion about how sniper weapons work or maybe i'm just misunderstanding you. Sniper weapons do no pick out individual models unless they have another special rule that allows them to do so. Sniper weapons wound on a 4+ and rend on 6's, frankly against space marines I'd much rather have the railrifle. The only thing that brings rail rifles down is how expensive they are for the units that field them, and the limited numbers you can take them in.

Since I'm not much for wish listing, I will say that the one rumor I've heard that seems to be substantiated is that there may be a new tau transport in the works for the next codex that is likely to be open topped. An open topped transport would be a wonderful addition to the codex IF this rumor is true. It's still far to early to tell what is in store for us.

[Blood Hawk]

Um yea Rail rifle is honestly better in almost every regard than a sniper rifle vs. anything expect t7+.  So honestly giving it the sniper rule would have it worse.

Most of the Tau rumors put us at being released later this year rumors around August, I am honestly going to wait before we know more to start my wish list though redoing our HQs to make them more "leadery" and less a guy with no save plus crisis suits with better stats...

[Locke]

Eh. We'll venture into this with reservations. I expect Rummy will be slapping us with a vodka-covered lock here pretty quick for wishlisting. Oh well, it can still be fun.

Ethereals:
Mostly useless, only provide a Ld bonus and are more useful dead for the benefit this provides.
BS 4 honour guard are a useful extra unit of Firewarriors but provide minimal protection to their Aun.
Ethereals really need re-adressing.

Ethereals need to be fixed. I'm hoping in the same vein that Necrons will have "psychic abilities" that are really technological, that Ethereals will have the same type of abilities. If our powers were anything like the GK rumors, this should make ethereal's easily worth it again. Assuming they actually get some decent armor this go round.

Kroot:
In their current incarnation Kroot Carnivores are typically used as shock troops and cannon fodder or as a distraction element. In 5th edition I would expect to see Fieldcraft replaced by more useful universal special rules such as Stealth and Move Through Cover. This means that Kroot would recieve a cover save regardless of the terrain they are in which would mitigate their low armour save.

This is really just a 5th edition update. Kroot aren't bad for their price, except for the Shaper. The fact that he has three wounds is stupid, as well as the fact that he is three times more expensive. He needs to be cheaper, realistically 1w, and have some wargear options, as well as possible evolutionary mutations.

Vespids:
Stingwings are drastically in need of revision. In their current incarnation Vespids have the Fleet rule which classes them as assault troops - a role for which they are ill-equipped. In some ways Stingwings are similar to Dark Eldar Scouges but in most cases the Scourges will run rings around them.

Vespids don't fill their roll properly. They're supposed to be hit and run harassing units with a decent gun. They currently are a weird blend between a combat unit and mid range harasser, and don't do either particularly well, especially for their points. They need to be put in one catagory or another. Preferably the harassing one, since this is Tau.

Gun Drones:
Gun Drone Squadrons are in many ways useless and in my experience rarely used. I think they are a waste of space on the list and I would love to see them scrapped.

Why on earth would you scrap a unit? Gun drones have a lot of potential. Make them troop choices, or FOC-less. That immediately brings up their worth significantly. If they're FOC-less, make them be 1:1 with the amount of your firewarrior squads. Give possible upgrades to heavy gun drones, and what you have is a jet pack (troop?) unit that can carry heavy weapons, and is cheaper than firewarriors in a fish.

Piranhas:
I think the codex Piranha should be replaced by Forge World's superior TX-42 Piranha. The TX-42 features better front/side armour and it's twin-linked weapons are more acurate and more useful than gun drones. Sadly though, I somehow doubt that GW will bother. If you ever play against me though - expect a squadron or two of TX-42's, they're awesome!

I think it should be a codex-approved upgrade option, similar to Landspeeders versus Landspeeder Typhoons. Additionally, giving them other weapon options besides gun drones would vastly increase their worth. Crisis suit weapons could be thrown on here, so we have more than two possible units carrying plasma weapons.

Rail Rifles:
The rail rifle is simply a long range pinning weapon useful against power armoured opponents. This is a far cry from the sniper rifle it is intended to be. The most obvious improvement to this weapon would be the inclusion of the Sniper rule which would allow it to pick off specific targets.

What? No. The rail rifle is superior to a sniper rifle in almost every way. That's also not what the sniper rule does, you might want to check your BRB. The Vindicare assassin can do that, but it's his special ability, not the sniper rule.

The rail rifle is perfectly fine the way it is, it just needs to be distributed to more units. A rail rifle\missile pod combo crisis suit sounds great to me.

Sky Rays:
The major down-side of these gunships are their limited supply of seeker missiles and their short range (36") in the absence of infantry markerlight hits. This means that to fire it's own missiles the Sky Ray's range is a pitiful 36" which is too close for a Tau gunship. This also means that the Sky Ray is only ever a support element with a limited supply of seeker missiles.
To amend this problem for 5th ed. I would prefer to see the Sky Ray's seeker missile quantity increased to an unlimited supply but it can only fire 4 per turn. I would also recommend increasing the range of the gunship's markerlights to a respectable 48".

Well, okay. 36" isn't exactly pitiful, after moving 12" with a markerlight, you can reach out and touch a majority of the board. Nevertheless, it's 6 seekers is a horrible gimp that needs to be addressed.

Overall, we're going to say the same things we always have. Markerlights need to be reworked, Devilfish need to be cheaper, Firewarriors need something, ect. If we were going to go back through this, I want people on this board to consider the recent GK rumors as well as the rest of the recent codices, and notice that the power level is being upped. Tau will need to do that just to keep pace. Yes, you guys and your great strategies and one-list-armies think Tau can still compete, but the codex is showing it's age and needs to be brought back in line so that a novice with another codex doesn't give a Tau veteran a run for his money.

[The GrimSqueaker]

I expect Rummy will be slapping us with a vodka-covered lock here pretty quick for wishlisting.

[gmod]As long as the discussion doesn't head in the direction of the Eldar thread where any half arsed or utterly unbalanced idea is forwarded merely because the author though it was cool or consider their favourite race should win every time ever. BS 4 Fire Warriors as standard is a subject that should not be named again because of that.[/gmod]

[Shas'Oink]

Sky Rays:
The major down-side of these gunships are their limited supply of seeker missiles and their short range (36") in the absence of infantry markerlight hits. This means that to fire it's own missiles the Sky Ray's range is a pitiful 36" which is too close for a Tau gunship. This also means that the Sky Ray is only ever a support element with a limited supply of seeker missiles.
To amend this problem for 5th ed. I would prefer to see the Sky Ray's seeker missile quantity increased to an unlimited supply but it can only fire 4 per turn. I would also recommend increasing the range of the gunship's markerlights to a respectable 48".

Well, okay. 36" isn't exactly pitiful, after moving 12" with a markerlight, you can reach out and touch a majority of the board. Nevertheless, it's 6 seekers is a horrible gimp that needs to be addressed.

Stop it, stop it now...  Both of you are simply wrong. How many shots can a Railgun fire in a game? At one per turn you are only ever going to fire 5-7 shots in a standard battle. So, this "horrible gimp" of the Sky Ray is exactly NOT that in a game where you play 5 turns (as you still get the opportunity to fire all 6 missiles), you are also no worse off in a 6 turn game. Only when you get to a 7 turn game might you consider the Sky Ray loses out in the shot count. Except of course, for the fact that the Sky Ray is more survivable than a Hammerhead (more weapons to destroy) and lets also not forget that every Railhead has a massive target painted on it by pretty much anyone you ever fight!!

The truth is that Sky Rays limited missles are simply not a crutch you have to contend with, what they do is allow you to fire the number of shots you want to, when you want to. A Sky Ray can fire 6 shots in one turn and then get blown up... having fired 6 shots. A hammerhead can only fire one shot, and then get blown up... This is the reason why you are wrong.

The Sky Ray is perfectly fine and capable. It is also a bargain price for its kit and gives us the option of BS4 mobile markerlights... you simply can't macth that anywhere else in the army.

I would like to say that there would still be scope for tinkering. It would be interesting to be able to purchase different missile types, for instance. However, for me the biggest way to get this unit more notoriety and allow it to compete with the other (more attractive) heavy support options is to allow you to take Sky Rays in squadrons.





Don't make me kill it with fire...

[Kaiizen]

The skyray is a great platform, but I find myself unable to justify it in most games for a couple reasons. Primarily, it is just not as versatile for similar points as the hammerhead. The hammerhead can either fire a single shot or the large blast (and in fact I do rarely fire the solid shot as it seems to always miss), and can throw out supplemental fire with either an SMS or burst cannon which adds up to a large amount of potential wounds on infantry. While I rarely use the railgun for single shots it is nice to know it's there if I ever really need it.

If the rumors are true of the hammerhead however, the railgun may be losing it's sub-munition shot in favor of another more 'colorful' rule. Now there are a couple of things that could make the skyray more functional without greatly changing it's role. First, turn each missile into an ordnance weapon or at least the rule of rolling two dice and picking the highest (people have also suggested a reroll on armor pen). The second suggestion is to give the missiles a frag/krak style shot with frag giving it a reduced strength shot at hitting multiple infantry. This is an either/or scenario, we don't need battle cannons with unlimited range and the ability to drop large blasts with strengths high enough to crush heavy vehicles, that's what the imperium does. Anything that the Tau does needs to be done with almost surgical precision.

[Wyddr]

I think one primary problem that ought to be addressed is *where* we can put markerlights.
 
As the 'signature' of our army, Markerlights are surprisingly difficult to field. Marker dones are *very* expensive, Pathfinders, while cool, are small in number and very fragile, and FW-borne makerlights are rarely worth it. The Skyray is one of the only useful mobile markerlight platforms.

I'd *like* to see that change. I'd like Markerlights to be fieldable on more platforms--perhaps as a hardpoint on crisis suits, or as a vehicular option. More of them in more places and with more mobile options would be fabulous, characterful, and lend the army a bit more of a shooting edge than they currently enjoy.

Of course, I've heard rumors they might be changing markerlight rules entirely (working more like Power From Pain--3 levels of markerlighted-ness only or something), in which case I might need to re-assess the above. If markerlights *were* to be changed in that way, I'd like to see them work as follows:

1 token: Target is forced to re-roll successful cover saves.
2 tokens: Firing unit shoots at BS5
3 tokens: (something else cool, not sure what)

If the effects of cumulative, suddenly *all* of our shooting becomes much, much more dangerous. Also, markerlight tokens become easier to manage/track and you don't actually *need* as many markerlights to be effective.

Finally: Some pieces of a equipment that should be plain-old standard on all things:

1) Blacksun Filters on all Vehicles.
2) Photon/EMP grenades on all Tau infantry
3) Multitrackers on all tanks

[Blood Hawk]

Call me crazy but honestly I think the classic Railhead is one of our weakest heavy support options, the single railgun shot rarely will make a difference when hunting tanks and the submission while useful isn't nearly as powerful as many other ordinance weapons on many other tanks out there.

The skyray is generally a useful tank, but isn't killing enough for me personally.  While I understand what it is meant to do honestly I think the issue is that while seekers are good, they aren't great and I rarely actually kill anything with my skyrays when I do field them.  And two makerlights are useful to support other units but paying 155pts+ for two makerlights at bs 4 is rather expensive.

1) Blacksun Filters on all Vehicles.
2) Photon/EMP grenades on all Tau infantry
3) Multitrackers on all tanks

I don't think EMP should be standard for infantry a upgrade yes but not standard.  Though personally I would like them upgraded to haywire status, glancing on a 2-5 rather than just a 4-5.  Also making them available to more than just FW.

[Benis]

I always thought that the small change of making Seeker missiles ordnance instead of heavy would solve some problems since it gives the weapon a slight edge against armour and the missiles are a very central part of the Tau theme (and bloody huge at that) so it would be fitting for them to be a bit better than Hunter-Killer missiles. I don't particularly like the idea of a lot of different Seeker missiles since those sort of things tend to get messy and very hard to balance, one missile will most likely come out on top and be the standard.

I agree about the Markerlights, Wyddr, they are surprisingly hard to mass up on than what I expected before I started playing. It is also very true that it requires a significant amount for a unit to really up its game enough to actually produce the sort of damage which critical situations require. Personally I would prefer if the Markerlight maintained a list of selective attributes, I hate when stuff gives bonuses that doesn't apply in many situation so the current system is in my view superior to the Power From Pain version, it also allows for adding some cool odd ability that might only be useful every 3rd game or something without actually damaging the Markerlight as a whole.

I don't think EMP should be standard for infantry a upgrade yes but not standard. 

I agree, though they could be standard on Pathfinders or Honour Guard though.

As for Multi-trackers, I think I would prefer some sort of standard tank equipment that raised the defensive weapon status from 4 to 5.

[Locke]

Stop it, stop it now...  Both of you are simply wrong. How many shots can a Railgun fire in a game? At one per turn you are only ever going to fire 5-7 shots in a standard battle. So, this "horrible gimp" of the Sky Ray is exactly NOT that in a game where you play 5 turns (as you still get the opportunity to fire all 6 missiles), you are also no worse off in a 6 turn game. Only when you get to a 7 turn game might you consider the Sky Ray loses out in the shot count. Except of course, for the fact that the Sky Ray is more survivable than a Hammerhead (more weapons to destroy) and lets also not forget that every Railhead has a massive target painted on it by pretty much anyone you ever fight!!

So what Oink? It's not a MBT. It's a support tank. If you want to look at it this way, it's a tank that has a main gun at 36" S8 AP3 Heavy 1, and sometimes a support markerlight. Along with it's secondary system. For what it cost, I am never taking that before a hammerhead.

The truth is that Sky Rays limited missles are simply not a crutch you have to contend with, what they do is allow you to fire the number of shots you want to, when you want to. A Sky Ray can fire 6 shots in one turn and then get blown up... having fired 6 shots. A hammerhead can only fire one shot, and then get blown up... This is the reason why you are wrong

Given sufficient markerlight support. Which can only -effectively- come from Pathfinders, which means in combination you're paying something close to 350 points for that 6 seeker alpha strike. I don't see the cost effectiveness.

Not to mention, as I said before, I am TIRED of Tau players doing this. Because we've worked with substandard units for such a long time we think that's what we deserve. If you've looked at the new GK, they're complaining about that, and it's miles above what we're working with. Everything in the codex needs to be adjusted to the new power creep, leaving things the way they are defeats the entire purpose and is just shooting us in the foot.

1) Blacksun Filters on all Vehicles.
2) Photon/EMP grenades on all Tau infantry
3) Multitrackers on all tanks

Of course, I've heard rumors they might be changing markerlight rules entirely (working more like Power From Pain--3 levels of markerlighted-ness only or something), in which case I might need to re-assess the above. If markerlights *were* to be changed in that way, I'd like to see them work as follows:
1 token: Target is forced to re-roll successful cover saves.
2 tokens: Firing unit shoots at BS5
3 tokens: (something else cool, not sure what)

I still think the original rules are better in regards to getting to choose what we need, but I agree that GW will probably make it something stupid. I personally want to switch 1 and 2 on your list. BS has always been the primary function of markerlights, and is applicable in all situations. Cover saves are not, and at times that means your markerlight is worthless if you're trying to get to 2 tokens for BS 5.

I also think Markerlighted units should have an "always" effect that if they're marked you don't need to roll for sight distance. So lets see:
1. BS 5 for firing unit
2. Reroll cover saves
3. Target unit is automatically pinned? (That would make for some fun)

We also have to remember what units have markerlights. In this scenario, Pathfinders become almost excessive because of the fact that they'll generally have 4 markerlight hits. What is to become of them then?

Call me crazy but honestly I think the classic Railhead is one of our weakest heavy support options, the single railgun shot rarely will make a difference when hunting tanks and the submission while useful isn't nearly as powerful as many other ordinance weapons on many other tanks out there.

Take a look at the railgun rumors and it'll look nice again. I do wish the template was AP3, we lack AP3 extensively in this army.

I don't think EMP should be standard for infantry a upgrade yes but not standard.  Though personally I would like them upgraded to haywire status, glancing on a 2-5 rather than just a 4-5.  Also making them available to more than just FW.

If they get haywire status then they'll be worth it, as is I don't see it.

I always thought that the small change of making Seeker missiles ordnance instead of heavy would solve some problems since it gives the weapon a slight edge against armour and the missiles are a very central part of the Tau theme (and bloody huge at that) so it would be fitting for them to be a bit better than Hunter-Killer missiles. I don't particularly like the idea of a lot of different Seeker missiles since those sort of things tend to get messy and very hard to balance, one missile will most likely come out on top and be the standard.

That makes it a decent transport hunter, but that's about it. I don't see what the issue is with having options, even if some are suboptimal, it makes the game more interesting.

As for Multi-trackers, I think I would prefer some sort of standard tank equipment that raised the defensive weapon status from 4 to 5.

I think both, honestly. Tau are supposed to be heavily mechanized and agile. Not quick, but agile. Being able to shoot as fast but not move as fast is pretty much as close as you get to that. The defensive weapon thing is just stupid that we got screwed on that in 5e, it needs to be adjusted.

Can I have an AI pilot to drive around and fire at BS2 if my crew is stunned ala machine spirit?

[Blood Hawk]

Not to mention, as I said before, I am TIRED of Tau players doing this. Because we've worked with substandard units for such a long time we think that's what we deserve. If you've looked at the new GK, they're complaining about that, and it's miles above what we're working with. Everything in the codex needs to be adjusted to the new power creep, leaving things the way they are defeats the entire purpose and is just shooting us in the foot.

Honestly I would wait till the actual GK codex comes out before making any assumptions on the games future, or just how much of the codex is creep.  That said I do somewhat agree we need a major overhaul and probably will get one.

Take a look at the railgun rumors and it'll look nice again. I do wish the template was AP3, we lack AP3 extensively in this army.

Yea I make sure to read the rumor mill for updates, but honestly as is the hammerhead with railgun IMO is sub par compared to Broadsides and Ionheads in terms of effectiveness for what you pay for.

If they get haywire status then they'll be worth it, as is I don't see it.

Yea my DE army ruined EMP grenades for me, I don't think I will using my Tau commando models with carbines and EMP for awhile, which is a shame really.

[Gornon]

From an opponent's view:

Markerlights on a Sky Ray need to be longer ranged.  Let us not forget just what this tank's first purpose was.  Air defense.  I would give them enhanced range.  At least out to 48 inches.  Considering the rules for flyers, those things covering about 30 inches is hardly threatening to air units.

I would also give the Tau a better ability to slow down and cripple their opponents.  Tau's 'slot' in 40k has always been 'mobility'.  Eldar of all kinds may be faster, but they need to slow down to shoot.  When they slow down, they are supposed to be more vulnerable once slowed and have less firepower.  Guard are slower, capable of limited speed, but have heavier guns.  Tau are supposed to be able to keep up a steady rain of fire as they move at a decent clip.  The niche was small to start and now both the Eldar and the Guard have pressed in on that niche, what with Valkyries, Falcons, and Ravagers.  Combine this with 5th Edition rules limiting their ability to disengage thanks to Outflank/Fast/Deep Strike/True LOS and the Tau need a new niche, and in my view, the ability to cripple their opponent's speed and firepower should be it.  Cheap AT guns that compete with Rail Guns that 'stun' a tank on a 4+ with no cover saves would be perfect.  Change Photon Grenades to defensive + forcing a difficult terrain roll.   Things like that.

[Shas'Oink]

Given sufficient markerlight support. Which can only -effectively- come from Pathfinders, which means in combination you're paying something close to 350 points for that 6 seeker alpha strike. I don't see the cost effectiveness.

Except of course that it's also wrong to factor in the entire cost of a Pathfidner unit. I spend about 160 points on my pathfinder teams. 95 of those points is the devilfish, which gets used by other units anyway, so we can discount that... the remaining 60-70 points should also be considered as a cost spread across your entire army (at least those units that CAN take advantage of markerlights). When you divide the cost of the pathfinders between the number of units that can use them you tend to find that the sky ray is STILL cheaper.

Now, of course the thing is that they do different things... but I'll be honest and say that I find myself rarely using railheads these days. I have started getting my anti-tank in other areas... trying to use fusion guns where possible as these tend to be the most effective tank killers (what with all these cover saves neutering railgun shots).

The fact remains that the sky ray works fine in itself. I'm not going to complain if they give it a boost, but I'm not complaining that its rubbish now (when it isn't).

There is a difference between something being crap and not knowing how to use it properly.

I'd like to see railguns working how they are supposed to in the fluff... similar to vibro cannons I suppose... draw a line and all tanks along it are hit with the S10 shot. that would be awesome and really scary!

Everything in the codex needs to be adjusted to the new power creep, leaving things the way they are defeats the entire purpose and is just shooting us in the foot.

I have to agree with this, but equally there is a "right" and "wrong" way of doing things. Its one thing to make units better, but not at the expense of their principle. you would never make a railhead better by giving it 20 S5 Ap- shots... it would be better... but at a different thing to what it does now... When looking for improvements it is ALWAYS important to keep the core principles and ideas of the unit the same... It is also important to remember that there is nothing wrong with units having weaknesses, as long as they don't get in the way of doing their job!

[Wyddr]

I would also give the Tau a better ability to slow down and cripple their opponents.  Tau's 'slot' in 40k has always been 'mobility'.  Eldar of all kinds may be faster, but they need to slow down to shoot.  When they slow down, they are supposed to be more vulnerable once slowed and have less firepower.  Guard are slower, capable of limited speed, but have heavier guns.  Tau are supposed to be able to keep up a steady rain of fire as they move at a decent clip.  The niche was small to start and now both the Eldar and the Guard have pressed in on that niche, what with Valkyries, Falcons, and Ravagers.  Combine this with 5th Edition rules limiting their ability to disengage thanks to Outflank/Fast/Deep Strike/True LOS and the Tau need a new niche, and in my view, the ability to cripple their opponent's speed and firepower should be it.  Cheap AT guns that compete with Rail Guns that 'stun' a tank on a 4+ with no cover saves would be perfect.  Change Photon Grenades to defensive + forcing a difficult terrain roll.   Things like that.

Completely agree with this (well, except the Photon Grenade part--I think that would get wonky--but still). The Tau have very much lost their niche. They aren't all that mobile any more (comparatively), they certainly aren't very fast, and they get easily out-shot by Guard and some other specific builds of other armies. They need to be nimble and surgical, they need to be able to pin more easily (I like the idea of 3 tokens = auto-pin), and so on. Heck, I'd like to see them with some kind of add-on to (whatever) allowing them to snipe like Telion/Vindicares can. Perhaps that can be for Sniper Drones? I'd certainly take them in that instance.

I'd also like to see more done with drones in general. Heavy Gun Drones would be nice (after you take a certain number of gun drones in a GDS, for instance), cheaper marker drones, sniper drones attachable to anything with a DC, other kinds of drones (like ones that give the squad a stealth field, or ones that shoot flechettes at incoming assaulters, etc.). Gun/Shield/Marker/Sniper are fine, but I'd think the Tau would be a little more inventive with the things and they would definitely be something that could give our army a bit more 'specialness'.

Oh, and final bit: it would be nice to be able to field *more* crisis suits than currently. Squads up to 5 would be cool, or perhaps even an SC that lets you take them as troops (Farsight?). I don't know, something like that would be fun and interesting to try.

[+++CLASSIFIED+++]

I hope that the Tau's edge isn't comprimised and we are left to rely on stop-gap measures such as auxillaries/ mercenaries.

At the same time an important flaw which needs addressing is the method in which auxilia are abused.

Kroot Carnivores, for example, are usually immediately targeted and neutralised by most prudent enemies for the threat they pose. According to Tau philosophy, there is no such thing as expendable troops but this is exactly how Kroot are often (not always) used. The same can be said of Vespid Stingwings who's only use is as a harassment unit - a role reserved for gun drones!

According to Tau philosophy weaker auxilia are to be supported by effective covering fire but this is not always practical or indeed possible.
As stand-alone infantry, auxilia troops need to be better equipped to face the threats of the 41st millenium.

Kroot Carnivore Kindred need to be equipped with concussion armour (5+ save) and photon grenades so they can reliably fullfill their role as infantry without relying on kroothounds & krootox riders.

Vespid Stingwing Strains need to be armed with a more practical ion carbine (12" | 4 | 3 | assault 2), as well as both photon & EMP grenades so they can better act as a mobile reserve.

[AXEBLADE]

The main thing I would like to see is the various kroot types split up again like in the origional tau codex.
I personally have never seen anyone use a Krootox rider and the only times I see hounds are when the kroot that you have to buy to take the hounds are used as ablative wound for the hounds as a countercharge unit.

In the theme of some of the new codexes a kroot shaper as an HQ choice could unlock the ability to take krotox and kroot hounds or to move them from HS/FA to troops. This would also give the ability to field the old kroot mercinary list in the codex.
In the same vein you could make the tau battlesuit commander a requirement in order to take battlesuits.
In this way different "paths" could be taken in your army list building.
Along the same lines of thought the units could be restricted to 0-1 and taking the HQ could remove the limitation in the same way that the blood angels have a character who removes the limit on death company squads.


In terms of other things I think that the outdated vehicle upgrades (the ones which do nothing due to the new rules) need to be redone (obviously) and that the points need to be re-alligned.
Other than that I wouldn't say there is any unit which is strictly "useless" though many (like vespids) do have very specific uses which aren't normally come across.
I have seen an army with 2 units of vespid and the vespid actually did quite well in cutting down MEQ's which almost made it to the tau line. They were essentially an expensive clean up crew but their wings let them defend the entire length of the tau gunline. This was in 4th ed.

[Locke]

points is the devilfish, which gets used by other units anyway, so we can discount that... the remaining 60-70 points should also be considered as a cost spread across your entire army (at least those units that CAN take advantage of markerlights). When you divide the cost of the pathfinders between the number of units that can use them you tend to find that the sky ray is STILL cheaper.

Now, of course the thing is that they do different things... but I'll be honest and say that I find myself rarely using railheads these days. I have started getting my anti-tank in other areas... trying to use fusion guns where possible as these tend to be the most effective tank killers (what with all these cover saves neutering railgun shots).

The fact remains that the sky ray works fine in itself. I'm not going to complain if they give it a boost, but I'm not complaining that its rubbish now (when it isn't).

There is a difference between something being crap and not knowing how to use it properly.

I resent the implication that you think I don't. You want to disagree on the SkyRay, fine, but I don't see what the point of the "it's good enough mentality". I didn't find a single thing in the BA 'dex where I was like "Eh, it's alright."

I'd like to see railguns working how they are supposed to in the fluff... similar to vibro cannons I suppose... draw a line and all tanks along it are hit with the S10 shot. that would be awesome and really scary!

I want this for railheads. Leave broadsides the way they are, otherwise that just gets stupid. But yeah, that sounds right to me too. And personally depending on the kind of cover I think it should be able to ignore some. Your concrete walls mean nothing to my hypervelocity slug that's going to go through both sides of your tank.

I have to agree with this, but equally there is a "right" and "wrong" way of doing things. Its one thing to make units better, but not at the expense of their principle. you would never make a railhead better by giving it 20 S5 Ap- shots... it would be better... but at a different thing to what it does now...

I agree with this. Explain to me how proposed to changes to the SkyRay are equivalent to what you suggest for the railhead?

It is also important to remember that there is nothing wrong with units having weaknesses, as long as they don't get in the way of doing their job!

Yes they can have weaknesses, but generally that weakness comes in the form of points, not battlefield performance. Tau don't need a million units on the field, they just need the ones they have to be more effective. Tau suffer from not being able to use the deadliest phase in the game, we don't need many more weaknesses.

Heck, I'd like to see them with some kind of add-on to (whatever) allowing them to snipe like Telion/Vindicares can. Perhaps that can be for Sniper Drones? I'd certainly take them in that instance.

There is precedent for that too. That would be awesome. Sniping sarges\heavy weapons\ect. out of squads would definitely make Sniper Drones far more effective at taking the teeth out of an enemy army once it's de-mechanized.

I'd also like to see more done with drones in general. Heavy Gun Drones would be nice (after you take a certain number of gun drones in a GDS, for instance), cheaper marker drones, sniper drones attachable to anything with a DC, other kinds of drones (like ones that give the squad a stealth field, or ones that shoot flechettes at incoming assaulters, etc.).

Agreed. I've always suggested other forms of drones. I like what you suggested, I think flechette drones and failsafe drones (throw that kamikaze detonator out) would be nice additions. Uplink drones to let the squad use the commanders leadership, and if you have enough of them they provide special tactical bonuses (Air strikes or extra marker tokens as a random thought).

An interesting "off the wall" fast attack choice could be a unit of independent character drones that move as jump infantry (not jet packs) and have scout. They can sacrifice themselves at any time to put down a large blast template of difficult\dangerous terrain, but if they get killed by shooting they don't use their effect.

Oh, and final bit: it would be nice to be able to field *more* crisis suits than currently. Squads up to 5 would be cool, or perhaps even an SC that lets you take them as troops (Farsight?). I don't know, something like that would be fun and interesting to try.

Hopefully with farsight they'll stop gimping everything in the FOC to all hell, and crisis suits as troops would make him an interesting character. No auxiliaries with Farsight, but full access to the rest of the Tau 'dex.

Speaking of, can our special characters stop being amphetamine parrot?

The main thing I would like to see is the various kroot types split up again like in the origional tau codex.
I personally have never seen anyone use a Krootox rider and the only times I see hounds are when the kroot that you have to buy to take the hounds are used as ablative wound for the hounds as a countercharge unit.

What? Perhaps you don't remember how they worked in the old codex. They didn't get to move as a separate unit. They cost an FOC slot but were still attached to carnivores. If it reverts back to that, people will never take those units.

In the theme of some of the new codexes a kroot shaper as an HQ choice could unlock the ability to take krotox and kroot hounds or to move them from HS/FA to troops. This would also give the ability to field the old kroot mercinary list in the codex

No. A million times no. I have started to resent mercenary players so much for this. You should not be able to field a kroot mercenary list within the Tau codex. Petition GW to create their own codex, until then, let Tau be Tau.

Along the same lines of thought the units could be restricted to 0-1 and taking the HQ could remove the limitation in the same way that the blood angels have a character who removes the limit on death company squads.

What units do you want to restrict our usage of? How does that make sense.

In terms of other things I think that the outdated vehicle upgrades (the ones which do nothing due to the new rules) need to be redone (obviously) and that the points need to be re-alligned.
Other than that I wouldn't say there is any unit which is strictly "useless" though many (like vespids) do have very specific uses which aren't normally come across.

There are many options that are so subpar that they're inconsidered so frequently they may as well be useless.

I have seen an army with 2 units of vespid and the vespid actually did quite well in cutting down MEQ's which almost made it to the tau line. They were essentially an expensive clean up crew but their wings let them defend the entire length of the tau gunline. This was in 4th ed.

A bit out of date there, wouldn't you say?

[Gornon]

I want this for railheads. Leave broadsides the way they are, otherwise that just gets stupid. But yeah, that sounds right to me too. And personally depending on the kind of cover I think it should be able to ignore some. Your concrete walls mean nothing to my hypervelocity slug that's going to go through both sides of your tank.

I'm not sure that I would want to see that effect.  I'm not sure that I would not mind some form of that rule in place, given Jaws and Vibro Cannons.  I don't want to St 10 everything hit in a line, no cover saves.  I would do something like St 10 Hit on the first model.  Cover Saves apply.  If the target is hit, penetrated, and the round is not blocked by cover, the next tank in line is then hit and so on and so forth.  I might even have the strength be reduced by one point per tank it blows though, representing the projectile losing velocity as it bleeds energy on impact.

While you are right, concrete would mean nothing to a rail round, this is the 41st Millennium, where unknown materials such as rockcrete, wraithbone, nid Bio-structures, and adamantium exist.  Keep in mind it takes a lot of shelling from Imperial Guard Artillery to break though a Hive City's curtain wall.  The reason why Imps use siege tactics is because the ratio of defense to damage in the 40k universe is that of the castle to sieges.  Besides 'railgun' can be easily replaced by Warp Lance, Las Cannon, or Melta, but all of those are blocked by cover.

Not to mention that this rule seems a little un-Tauish.  Tau are all about "Hey, that target, there, it dies" as opposed to the Guard's "Something in that direction is dead."  Railgun attacks with that rule strike me as too indiscriminate. 

There is precedent for that too. That would be awesome. Sniping sarges\heavy weapons\ect. out of squads would definitely make Sniper Drones far more effective at taking the teeth out of an enemy army once it's de-mechanized.

I disagree.  Why?  Because the only models in the game that can do that are one special character who is one of the most experienced genetically engineered super-soldiers in the galaxy, and specialized, highly rare, assassins gene-tailored for the role.  Even Eldar Pathfinders don't get that ability.  The idea that something with the brain of a squirrel can perform feats equal to the galaxies best snipers when Eldar can't match is some thing I can't agree with.

[Wyddr]

I disagree.  Why?  Because the only models in the game that can do that are one special character who is one of the most experienced genetically engineered super-soldiers in the galaxy, and specialized, highly rare, assassins gene-tailored for the role.  Even Eldar Pathfinders don't get that ability.  The idea that something with the brain of a squirrel can perform feats equal to the galaxies best snipers when Eldar can't match is some thing I can't agree with.

Could we not travel down the 'if the Eldar can't do it, why should you be able to' path? It leads nowhere positive.

The fluff could *easily* be justified. They're super-computers that can do super stuff--there, done. Now, if you happen to think the ability would be either overpowering or out of character for the army (neither of which I happen to think is true), then you have something there. Otherwise, I don't find your rejection of this idea all that compelling. I might as well insist that Power of the Machine Spirit should be transferrable to all Space Marine vehicles since the TAU can put target locks on everything and the Tau are more primitive than the AdMech. We can then spend the next fourty years pissing in each other's oatmeal until we have no more breakfast. Let's try to keep comparative fluff/fluff power discussions out of the conversation or we aren't going to get anywhere and the thread will be locked in the blink of an eye.