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Author Topic: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council  (Read 4386 times)

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Offline -Φ Ulfhedinn Φ- Servant of the Lord of Dark Delights

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Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« on: December 1, 2008, 09:24:58 AM »
Hey lads !!

I apologise if this is a well worn subject but what do you generally prefer on your Jetbike Seer Councils?

I'm currently converting up 9 to be warlocks ( is 9 overkill? ), 1 Farseer and 1 Autarch ( using the box set one ) to make a nasty nasty hammer for my anvil in a 2k pt army. Keep in mind i have yet to use a council - let alone a Jetbike one  ::)

I also have an Eldrad + Yriel mounted Seer Council in a Wave Serpent. comprising of 10 foot slogging warlocks. ( in case anyone suggests this over the jetbike conversion )

Does it really come down to the versatility to take out an armoured target as you hoon past vs an additional attack in combat? Or is a mixed amount a good way to go?

I currently have 5 DA Exarch swords and 6 DA Exarch spears. I can get my hands on the extra swords and spears if necessary without much trouble at all. I have the option for a Farseer with a spear or a staff ( staves can surely count as Witchblades !  :P )

Here is a quick photo to show what I'm currently working with.



** Note- i will be extensively converting the riders and jetbikes themselves as well to look more like Warlock and Farseer issued jetbikes as I'm going to enter this into a local GWS conversion competition. **

I would appreciate your views on this subject  ;D

-Ulfhedinn-
« Last Edit: December 1, 2008, 09:31:21 AM by -Ulfhedinn- »
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Offline Killing Time

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #1 on: December 1, 2008, 09:35:07 AM »
In the council I honestly think there is absolutely no reason to take any singing spears at all.
The witchblade will give you more attacks in cc and that's always where you want to be.
Taking out a tank? CC the rear armour.
Tarpitting a horde? Multiple turns of CC, where taking the extra attack into rounds 2+ will pay dividends.
Assaulting MEQs etc? Shooting may allow them to retreat using combat tactics. Extra CC wounds will count against them far more effectively.

The only time to take a spear (IMO) is in Guardian squads, where you may spend several turns sniping with a Shuriken Cannon, and the extra S9 shot may be useful, especially against rear armour or MCs.

Dizzy

Offline Lonewolf

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #2 on: December 1, 2008, 09:35:19 AM »
Personally i go all blades. The twinlinked shuricats will be the better shooting option in 9 out of 10 cases, especially with doom. And if you need to down an armoured target, 3 WB attacks on the charge are generally better than 1 thrown spear, especially since you will be always hitting rear armour. Only downside would be if the verhicle in question has driven so fast, that it can only be hit on 6 but even then, you wont be too much worse off.

About the size question, i personally play with 6 warlocks, autarch and farseer, and seriously consider to add another couple of warlocks. Only 2 problems, firstly i have no idea where to get the points and secondly i am lacking the required number of jetbikes.


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Offline BubbaMack

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #3 on: December 1, 2008, 09:36:17 AM »
I can't speak for a jet bike council, but for my slogging one I prefer spears if I can afford the points.  They're great for vehicles in that you can throw it and assault with it in the same turn which you cannot do with the blades.  I have never used a bike squad like you are building but I could see the same tactic working pretty well in that case too.  For a council to tank hunt you would want spears.  If you want more horde/MC control the blades might be better with the extra attack.

Ninja'd x2
...but I could be wrong.

Offline Solipsism Rent

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #4 on: December 1, 2008, 10:19:48 AM »
But done spears count as STR 9 against vehicles back Armour when charging also?

If I were to run a council on bikes id probably run one Farseer and six warlocks, two armed with spears.

Farseer with doom and fortune and the warlocks with spears use one embolden, one enhance. Rest with destructor.

Pricey tho prefer them on foot
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Offline BubbaMack

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #5 on: December 1, 2008, 10:38:20 AM »
But done spears count as STR 9 against vehicles back Armour when charging also?

Yes they do.  Another thing to consider, with spears it allows you to pop a transport from a distance and still get two attacks a piece to charge the squad that came out.
...but I could be wrong.

Offline Lonewolf

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #6 on: December 1, 2008, 10:47:35 AM »
But done spears count as STR 9 against vehicles back Armour when charging also?

Yes, but you lose one attack, and you cant use them, when you have thrown them in the same turn (although this might have changed nowadays, i am not sure, since i havent used them since the last codex  :P )


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Offline Dinendal

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #7 on: December 1, 2008, 10:49:02 AM »
If you have the points for it in your list I would suggest a singing spear for some warlocks. More specifally the ones you will more than likely choose to allocate more wounds from CC. Why?

CC termies in a landraider. You get a guide and fire 6 singing spears. More than likely 5 or all 6s will hit and you should have good chances to bring it down, meaning you can assault the termies in the same turn.

That's my take on this...
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Offline Solipsism Rent

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #8 on: December 1, 2008, 10:55:15 AM »
But done spears count as STR 9 against vehicles back Armour when charging also?

Yes, but you lose one attack, and you cant use them, when you have thrown them in the same turn (although this might have changed nowadays, i am not sure, since i havent used them since the last codex  :P )

Pretty sure you can, being an assault weapon.
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Offline -Φ Ulfhedinn Φ- Servant of the Lord of Dark Delights

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #9 on: December 1, 2008, 10:58:17 AM »
Interesting feedback ~ thanks guys ;D

I should mention i like to have my Heavy Support list filled as that is the style i seem to go.

I'd run a min of 2x WL with BL, EML and 2x Flamers or 2 Fire Prisms if i can fit them in nicely.

I think I'm going with a 10 wraithguard base, 2 WL, and another farseer with the wraithguard spitting out fortune as my anvil when i use a jetbike council.

So it really becomes a choice to shoot the jetbike council with re rolls out of... well.. you know where.. or to deal with the approaching threat of Wraithguard + Wraithlords.

-Ulfhedinn-
"The very touch of our god's breath overwhelms mortal senses with the scent of delight... the slightest purr of our god's voice is enough to stimulate the senses into eternal and blissful oblivion. To the followers of Slaanesh the mortal world is grey and insipid compared to the sensual paradise that is the master's affection."

Offline Chaplain Swordwind

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #10 on: December 1, 2008, 11:29:15 AM »
I'd like to chime in here and say that I feel a Jetbike Council is ridiculously expensive for an anti-tank unit.  First, you have the Farseer himself, which will run you at least 120 pts in most cases.  Then you add in the Warlocks, a minimum of 45 pts each, needing at LEAST 3 to even call it a Council... so that's another 135 pts, 255 pts so far and you have no powers (which you need) on the Warlocks, and no Singing Spears (yet).  Now at this point you could take your "cheap" council, through some spears in it, and try to make back those 255+ points before your mini-council gets wiped out.  Not too good a prospect.

Option 2:  You go with a bigger council, perhaps a Fortuneseer & 7 Warlocks, with Embolden and probably Enhance.  If you're shooting at tanks with Spears, you'll probably want about 4 of them, just to be sure... so lets say you put them on 4 of your warlocks (2 of which have the powers assigned to them), leaving you 3 ablative wounds in case you start taking damage.  Now you are looking at a unit that costs over 460 pts.  Though its a powerful unit with a lot of resilience, it will have a difficult time making back its points in an anti-tank role, unless you are fortunate enough to take out two Land Raiders (or equivalent) or 3+ less expensive vehicles.

What I am trying to get at here is that a Jetbike Council really belongs in Close Combat, where it can take advantage of its strengths (Fortuned Invulnerable Saves, Weapons that always wound on 2+, Enhanced WS, etc.) and minimize its weaknesses (low model count, large footprint that makes the unit difficult to hide from enemy fire, etc.).  If you ARE going to put the unit in close combat, then you really don't want to spend the 3 pts for the Singing Spear upgrade, as you won't be shooting that much and you'll be penalizing yourself in hand to hand combat by reducing the number of attacks you get.

If you ARE going to use Singing Spears, I believe they should be put in very specific places.  First, a solitary Jetbike Farseer without Warlocks could be kept cheap enough to do the job reasonably well, and since you'd want a lone character like that to avoid combat anyway, shooting would be an appropriate role for him.  Second, a Warlock in a Storm Guardian Squad with Fusion Guns would be a good place (probably the better of the two actually) for a Singing Spear, as he would enhance that squads ability to conduct anti-tank operations.  Personally, I would prefer to give that Warlock Destructor to diversify the unit, in the same way that I prefer to give a Fire Dragon Exarch a Dragon Breath Flamer, but that is a personal preference.

I hope you found this post insightful.  I am not trying to discourage you, but hoping to point out some things that will help you make the decision that will work best for you.  Good Luck.
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Offline Spiritwarroir

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #11 on: December 1, 2008, 11:45:38 AM »
I think that Witch blades are the way to go.  You have Wraith Guard for Anti tank.  But they don't kill fast, so use the consul to do that part.  Keep units focused.  We pointy ears don't have Generalist and should not try to make them.

Offline BubbaMack

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #12 on: December 1, 2008, 11:56:28 AM »
Swordwind brings up some good 'points' issues.  I agree it is allot of points but you are forgetting that once the council does dispatch of a landraider there is normally a large or expensive squad inside to engage in CC.  With that in mind you could end up with making your points back pretty quickly if you have focused the squad correctly.   It boils down to your tastes and what direction you want the squad to go.  Like has been said, Eldar don't do well as generalists. 
...but I could be wrong.

Offline Starrakatt

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #13 on: December 1, 2008, 04:51:00 PM »
I faced both and the number of attacks is really a telling factor, so I would personally go for the Witchblades, although you may want to experiment with, say, a pair of Warlocks with SSpears as a backup, just in case, but only if you get a full squad (9-10 models), otherwise you lose too much attacks.

Also, you could want to consider a Speartarch in the unit as well, as 5/6 high strength power weapon Attacks with a charging Council is most, most killy and present an acceptable option to Yriel. ;)

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Offline Bastafa

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #14 on: December 1, 2008, 05:02:03 PM »
Quick question, if you pop a tank with the spears are you allowed to assault the unit inside? Always thought they were a different 'unit'

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #15 on: December 1, 2008, 05:07:36 PM »
I personally don't find useage of spears.

But that's because I task my council to hunt infantry and not tanks.  If I do do tanks, I'll charge em... more fun to roll more dice.

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Offline Adrastos

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #16 on: December 1, 2008, 09:06:56 PM »
Well having just played a game today using Spears on half my council I have to say it was not a good go. I played pretty poorly, making numerous bad decisions (the mark of any good newbie). It was against tau, and I happily assaulted some Stealth Suites with what was left of my 5-man council after his first round of shooting. aka, 3 units, 1 witch-blade 2 spears. They successfully killed ONE stealth suit, after a whole 4 rounds of combat, after I lost my witch-blade and got stuck with two spear units. 1 attack in CC is just NOT acceptable.

Also I need to keep reminding myself that Suits do NOT suck in CC vs most Eldar units which either grant saves, wound on 5+, or do both...I've made the mistakes of charging guardian units (bikes the first time, stormies the second) into combat with crisis suits and have come away failing miserably both times...

Any way, my point is, being stuck at 1 attack in CC really isn't worth the trouble unless you are taking a large enough squad to outfit them adequately with a superior number of Witch-blades to Spears.

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« Last Edit: December 1, 2008, 09:47:15 PM by Adrastos »
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Offline -Φ Ulfhedinn Φ- Servant of the Lord of Dark Delights

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #17 on: December 1, 2008, 09:19:14 PM »
Awesome  thanks everyone !

From the start i was leaning towards the pure witchblade council for that very reason - to get the most attacks in CC is possible. I will be following it up, as Starky suggested with an Autarch with a Laser Lance upgrade to basically help out on the guaranteed kill portion.

Considering i have 2 Wraithlords and 2 Fire Prisms i can call upon, the Seer Council shouldn't be my main anti-tank focus.

Some ideas of the 4:1 ( sword to spear ) ratio seems handy as it wouldn't overly interfere with the squads combat prowess - but then again thats a council of 8 to get 2 spears.

For now i will be converting the bikes to let this discussion keep rolling on, as i think that people still have their views to put forward.

Cheers,

-Ulfhedinn-
"The very touch of our god's breath overwhelms mortal senses with the scent of delight... the slightest purr of our god's voice is enough to stimulate the senses into eternal and blissful oblivion. To the followers of Slaanesh the mortal world is grey and insipid compared to the sensual paradise that is the master's affection."

Offline scarecrow260584

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #18 on: December 1, 2008, 11:16:15 PM »
any chance you could walk us through your conversions as you go?

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Re: Witchblades vs Singing Spears - Jetbike Seer Council
« Reply #19 on: December 1, 2008, 11:41:10 PM »
Sure thing scarecrow260584,

I will be putting it up in the Konversions forum as i go along. It is my intent to -heavily- modify the initial jetbike design to a new and sleeker variant. (imo - jetbikes are long overdue for an upgrade in design)

 I will be also doing all the runes/designs on the engine cowling. I -may- do up some concept sketches but I'm a horrible sketcher so I'll probably go with what is currently floating around in my head. The main basis is a modern day sports motorbike design with a long sloping body much like the Dark Eldar Reaver Jetbikes with their riders mounted as if they were riding a sports bike rather then a cruiser  ;D

I'm so excited about what i have in store.. i may neglect my painting for it  :o

-Ulfhedinn-
"The very touch of our god's breath overwhelms mortal senses with the scent of delight... the slightest purr of our god's voice is enough to stimulate the senses into eternal and blissful oblivion. To the followers of Slaanesh the mortal world is grey and insipid compared to the sensual paradise that is the master's affection."

 


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