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Author Topic: Making Pistols Useful  (Read 2841 times)

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Offline Calamity

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Making Pistols Useful
« on: July 25, 2015, 08:48:21 AM »
Hi!  A while ago, there was talk about how useless pistols are most of the time.  And then the talk went to making them better at Overwatch.  I suggested letting pistols make Overwatch attacks at +1 BS, but although this made sense, it was deemed too powerful.  So recently I instead came up with these two ideas whilst thinking up of IG ideas:

- letting pistols re-roll missed Overwatch shots

- letting a model make an Overwatch shooting attack with a pistol in addition to another non template weapon.

The first one just represents the fact that a pistol is lighter and easier to handle than other weapons.  The second represents a trend I've noticed whilst playing Destiny.  When I'm being bum rushed by the enemy in huge numbers, I always end up emptying the clip of my main weapon into them before whipping out my sidearm (that's literally what the weapon is called in the game) and hitting them with that too.

Imagine in game a Space Marine being charged by nids.  He can stand there and blast away with his boltgun, then when the gun clicks empty, whip out his bolt pistol and possibly shoot one in the face just as it's about to jump on him.  Few units I know carry both pistols and other weapons so it wouldn't be that common either.

Do any of these sound workable?  If so which one would you suggest using?  Would using both be acceptable?

Offline Slick Samos

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Re: Making Pistols Useful
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2015, 04:37:39 PM »
BS5 and BS6 with re-rolls are almost the same thing (only 1/36 less effective) - this essentially gives them the same power (roughly) as their equivalent rapid fire weapon - so no change for dekka squads' overwatch etc...  Therefore I'd be happy with this.  Either works well, but preferably BS5 as it means only rolling one dice. 

A pistol attack in addition to a non-template weapon is too powerful, in fact more powerful than what's stated above, as you're getting effectively (assuming rapid fire equivalent which is likely) +1 BS6 shot.  So just keep to your original idea. 
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Offline DCannon ForLife

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Re: Making Pistols Useful
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2015, 10:00:30 PM »
Allow a model equipped with a pistol to trade ONE of its CC attacks for an 'attack' (using WS, not BS) with the pistol at Initiative Step One. You'd see plasma pistols everywhere....

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Making Pistols Useful
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2015, 11:17:47 PM »
Wait, why do we need to buff pistols?  Are we talking all pistols or just marine ones?  My harlequins love their neuro disruptors.  Inferno pistols are mildly suicidal, but they're only "bad" because haywire grenades are a thing.

Giving them bonuses to overwatch seems odd to me.  I'm guessing you're going with the whole, "you can squeeze the trigger really fast" idea, but that doesn't really hold up next to, say, a shuriken catapult that fires a bajillion rounds a second. I'm not fond of the "fire your pistol and another weapon" suggestion either I'm afraid.  Video games aren't exactly the best thing to look to for proper firearm discipline, and it doesn't latch on well to the existing rules.

I've never found pistols to be a problem.  They don't shoot as well as a full gun because they're not supposed to.  A bolt pistol is specifically designed to not be as good at shooting as a boltgun, but you gain an extra attack for holding it in close combat.  Assault units that have them can fire off a round to soften an enemy unit up before assaulting.  Tac marines can use their pistols instead of their boltguns when they want to assault that turn. 

What problems are you having with pistols exactly? :(

Offline Calamity

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Re: Making Pistols Useful
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2015, 04:48:31 AM »
Well, this is kinda hard for me to admit but; I haven't played a game since 5th edition, so I don't have a problem with pistols.  Or anything else for that matter.  :-[

When I was making up IG doctrines I was trying to find a good way to make gaining las pistols seem like a more attractive option.  And it got me to thinking about pistols in general.  They most likely don't need any work at all.  And perhaps I should play the game first before I start making judgements about it.  :-\

This tread was more me thinking out loud.  I didn't mean to rattle any cages.  I'm sorry.  :(

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Making Pistols Useful
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2015, 09:40:34 AM »
What problems are you having with pistols exactly? :(

Pistols have really only one problem: Plasma Pistols are as much as a Plasma Gun, and no sane person would or should pay that much.

Drop special pistol prices to 10 points, and there are no problems at all.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Making Pistols Useful
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2015, 04:05:51 PM »
Really, you could drop the price to 5 points in most cases. At least for single-wound models.

How many times do you get to shoot a pistol in a game? MAYBE twice. Usually once. Sometimes, not at all.

Add to that a Plasma Pistol's chance to off the user, and you've got a fair trade. I take a dirt cheap chance to bump off one dude, if he fails cover, and I rarely kill myself and waste the CC upgrade / LD benefit I give to my squad.

At 5 points, I'd still be wary of giving them to Guard Sergeants. I need that extra Ld!

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Making Pistols Useful
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2015, 08:26:10 PM »
Well, this is kinda hard for me to admit but; I haven't played a game since 5th edition, so I don't have a problem with pistols.  Or anything else for that matter.  :-[

When I was making up IG doctrines I was trying to find a good way to make gaining las pistols seem like a more attractive option.  And it got me to thinking about pistols in general.  They most likely don't need any work at all.  And perhaps I should play the game first before I start making judgements about it.  :-\

This tread was more me thinking out loud.  I didn't mean to rattle any cages.  I'm sorry.  :(

No need to apologize. I was just confused that someone seemed to have a problem with pistols in general.  The attractive thing about giving guard pistols is that you also give them a ccw so that they're slightly better in melee (especially in blobs).  That, or you design swapping a lasgun for a laspistol to intentionally be a nerf and give them some other small buff to compensate in order to represent a certain flavor of IG. 

Plasma pistols are indeed probably too pricey for what they do.  Making them cost 5 or 10 points seems reasonable to me as does reducing the cost of power weapons pretty much anywhere in the game by 5 or 10 points. :)

Offline Calamity

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Re: Making Pistols Useful
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2015, 08:46:15 PM »
I'm in favor of a points reduction for plasma pistols too.  It makes sense and makes them worth while.

No need to apologize. I was just confused that someone seemed to have a problem with pistols in general.  The attractive thing about giving guard pistols is that you also give them a ccw so that they're slightly better in melee (especially in blobs).  That, or you design swapping a lasgun for a laspistol to intentionally be a nerf and give them some other small buff to compensate in order to represent a certain flavor of IG. 

Actually my original idea was to replace their basic cc weapons with laspistols.  But honestly, it's probably better to follow your idea and to just let them take a pistol without a swap.  If it all.  The fluff reason for it was that the regiment didn't buy into the traditional notion of pistols being reserved for Officers only and thus gave sidearms to all their fighters (Catachan Jungles Fighters and Elysain Drop Troops spring to mind with this doctrine).  The IG ideas have progressed massively by the way, but that's a whole different topic altogether.

Offline Wyldhunt

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Re: Making Pistols Useful
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2015, 11:40:27 PM »
Makes sense to me.  The mechanical advantage would be that you could fire your pistols and charge in the same turn. If you give them the option to add a ccw to the mix,  you're looking at a pretty significant close combat boost.

 


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