Topic: Imperial Crusaders 1000 points (DA codex.)

[*Striker*]

I'm musing on starting a 2nd 40k army to compliment my imperial guard.  I"ve finally made up my mind to do a space marine army based on the dark angels codex.  When I competitavely play guard it's all infantry for me, so it's a small wonder that I'm trying a mechanized route with space marines.  I wanted to create a fairly mobile army which could hit hard and grab objectives.(IG being good at the former but not the latter.) The combat squad rules gives a good way to accomplish this.  Here's the list, tear it apart.  Oh, I once saw in a chapter list that the "Imperial Crusaders" was mentioned as one of the chapters already named by GW, but there was no other information about them.  Was what I heard a mistook? Or is there some information burried deep on them?(I prefer to make original armies)

Imperial Crusaders 1000 pts.

HQ:
Chaplain + jumpack
120
(tried to keep my hq simple, he will go with assault marines.  Too bad there is no two wound cheap captain in the DA codex)

Troopes
Tactical Squad
9 space marines+vet sarge.
ML, flamer, powersword.
razorback
extra armour
260
(Will most likely split into two combat squads, one with the heavy weapon only, the other gets a ride with the razorback)

Tactical Squad
9 space marines+vet sarge
ML, plasma, powersword
razorback
pintlestorm
260
(ditto)

Assault Marines(4+vet sarge),meltabomb,powerweapon
145

Predator
Autocannon
Las-sponsons.
130

Whirlwind
85
(A minimum range that actually is feasible![compared to basilisk] I was compelled to finally try some artillery!)

1000

edit: Some numbers were missing from units, fixed.

[YuenglingDragon]

HQ
Keeping it cheap at 1000 points is good.  You may have been too cheap, though.  This guy really ought to have meltabombs so he at least stands a chance against something with an armor value.

Troops
Power weapons are...silly.  Hidden powerfists are markedly better.  The plasma gun will prevent you from assaulting so should be replaced with a meltagun.

Fast Attack
powerfists > power weapon and will let you drop the meltabombs here.

Heavy Support
I think if you're going to be mobile this Predator is a bad choice.  TL Las and Heavy Bolters will let this keep up with your Razorbacks.

The Whirlwind is also a curious choice for a mobile army.  I've never been a fan, myself, as it seems like a waste of a perfectly good BS to drop ordnance like that.  I knwo other people are big fans so I won't begrudge you the tank, if you like it.

[*Striker*]

HQ
Keeping it cheap at 1000 points is good.  You may have been too cheap, though.  This guy really ought to have meltabombs so he at least stands a chance against something with an armor value.

Good Idea.

Troops
Power weapons are...silly.  Hidden powerfists are markedly better.  The plasma gun will prevent you from assaulting so should be replaced with a meltagun.

Unfortunatly, in my experience if you equip a unit with a powefist the enemy will simply remove models from base to base contact after your regular attacks so that the powerfist can't attack in the next initiative step, making the powerfist a useless item you pay alot for.(Powerfists are quite expensive to load up on in 1000 points.  1/10 of my army being pure powerfists doesn't sound right!)  I want a plasma over melta for more ranged ap2. Plus, that unit is not meant purely for assault but rather to plant itself on an objective or other vantage point.(They will most likely get assaultED so I put a powersword with them.)
Oh, for amphetamine parrots and giggles i did some math hammer.  Against MEQs, a marine with a powersword is roughly as cost-efficient as a marine with a powerfist. Against anything <T4(Tau, eldar, guard, sisters, etc.), the powersword is more cost-efficient.  Really I'm only losing out against MC's/Vehicles.  Powerswords are anything but silly IMO.

Fast Attack
powerfists > power weapon and will let you drop the meltabombs here.

If I can fit one powerfist in it will be with the assault sgt.  But where do I free up the points?  I'll switch the melta bombs from vetsarge to chaplain but I don't see many area's where I can free up points with.

Heavy Support
I think if you're going to be mobile this Predator is a bad choice.  TL Las and Heavy Bolters will let this keep up with your Razorbacks.

Sure it would make the predator able to shoot more weapons on the move, but the roles of the weapons are completely different.  I want the predator for tank/transport/creature busting.  2 lascannons>1 TL lascannon.  Heavybolters wouldn't fit it's planned role in my army, They wouldn't be effective against most the targets I want to shoot at, and if i shoot at infantry, the lascannons are extremely inefficient.

The Whirlwind is also a curious choice for a mobile army.  I've never been a fan, myself, as it seems like a waste of a perfectly good BS to drop ordnance like that.  I knwo other people are big fans so I won't begrudge you the tank, if you like it.

Again, I am just tempted to try artillery thats actually feasible.  Plus, BS doesnt matter when it's ordanance thats fairly cheap.  My whole army doesn't need to be mobile, just a good portion of it.  In fact there will be some games most of army will be hardly moving at all (AKA any game vs. nids/dark eldar/*insert pure close-combate army here*)

Thanks for the critique, you made me double-think the choices I made.

[Magus_42]

I think your guard experience has given you a negative opinion of powerfists. Against guard, they aren't much use, for the reasons you named. Against most opponents, your regular attacks will not do enough casualties to allow your opponent to remove all models from base to base. Not if you get a charge off, at least.

The most important consideration is that a squad with a powerfist can hurt any unit in the game in combat. There are plenty of units that can charge a unit with a power weapon with little fear of even taking a wound. Even simple bike squads are a challenge for a squad without a fist.

I'm not sure I agree with your mathhammer results, but it's certainly the case that fists are expensive in the DA codex and not an automatic choice as they are elsewhere. In a small game, I think you're fine with power weapons on the tactical sergeants, but should definitely get a fist for your assault marines. An aggressive marine army without at least one fist is very vulnerable. I would drop whatever upgrades you can (pintle storm bolter?, melta bombs?) to get at least one fist in the list.

[YuenglingDragon]

Unfortunatly, in my experience if you equip a unit with a powefist the enemy will simply remove models from base to base contact after your regular attacks so that the powerfist can't attack in the next initiative step, making the powerfist a useless item you pay alot for.(Powerfists are quite expensive to load up on in 1000 points.  1/10 of my army being pure powerfists doesn't sound right!)  I want a plasma over melta for more ranged ap2. Plus, that unit is not meant purely for assault but rather to plant itself on an objective or other vantage point.(They will most likely get assaultED so I put a powersword with them.)
Oh, for amphetamine parrots and giggles i did some math hammer.  Against MEQs, a marine with a powersword is roughly as cost-efficient as a marine with a powerfist. Against anything <T4(Tau, eldar, guard, sisters, etc.), the powersword is more cost-efficient.  Really I'm only losing out against MC's/Vehicles.  Powerswords are anything but silly IMO.

Well, that's a personal choice.  I simply hate not having MC/Dread/Killer Kan/T5+ insurance.  Not having a powerfist means you're just as effective against MEq's, nearly so against GEq's and actually able to hurt some things that you wouldn't be able to touch otherwise and are a tremendous threat to multi-wound models.  Remember that you have other Marines in the unit to help against GEq's but they need help against the bigger stuff.  If you're doing the assaulting there should be few opportunities for your opponent to remove all the models near a powerfist.  If that happens you've either already effectively won that combat or you're spreading out too much.  Besides, it looks like in 5th Edition models assaulting you in cover will become I1 instead of you becoming I10 so your powerfist will get to go simul, which is nice.

If I can fit one powerfist in it will be with the assault sgt.  But where do I free up the points?  I'll switch the melta bombs from vetsarge to chaplain but I don't see many area's where I can free up points with.

Cheapening the Pred or dropping the Whirlwind.  Honestly, I'd do whatever it took to spam a few more powerfists.

Sure it would make the predator able to shoot more weapons on the move, but the roles of the weapons are completely different.  I want the predator for tank/transport/creature busting.  2 lascannons>1 TL lascannon.  Heavybolters wouldn't fit it's planned role in my army, They wouldn't be effective against most the targets I want to shoot at, and if i shoot at infantry, the lascannons are extremely inefficient.

Well, there is some overlap.  Against light vehicles like transports, Killer Kans, Speeders, etc the Heavy Bolters are still usable.  Likewise, if you end up shooting at a pure infantry army you'll be better adapted for that role.  And you don't blow like crazy when you move.  That's most important to me because in this list you basically have three mobile scoring units but they are all pretty fragile.  I truly think you need another.  2 lascannons are barely better than a TL Las.  You have a less than 50% chance to hit with both or them and moving to get a better target or LOS will drop you down to firing only one which is worse than TL.

Again, I am just tempted to try artillery thats actually feasible.  Plus, BS doesnt matter when it's ordanance thats fairly cheap.  My whole army doesn't need to be mobile, just a good portion of it.  In fact there will be some games most of army will be hardly moving at all (AKA any game vs. nids/dark eldar/*insert pure close-combate army here*)

Meh.  Your choice.  As I said, it's mostly an objection based on personal preferences.

[Magus_42]

I've used the Autcannon + las predator a few times, mostly because it happens to cost the same points as a vindicator and so can be easily swapped into a list. It's a pretty decent tank hunter, with 4 shots able to threaten AV13. It can hunt rhinos and other light vehicles on the move, but you become hopelessly static when hunting heavy armor, which is really a huge drawback in my experience.

With the lascannon + hb pred, you're basically buying a mobile lascannon. and throwing on the heavy bolter sponsons because they're cheap and give the tank some flexibility. Mobile heavy weapons are very useful things, which is why this config is so popular.

[YuenglingDragon]

I've heard that they may change defensive weapons to S4 and lower.  that would definitely change my opinion on this set up if true.

[Arkion]

Some quick critiques of your list:

HQ:
Chaplain + jumpack
120
(tried to keep my hq simple, he will go with assault marines.  Too bad there is no two wound cheap captain in the DA codex)

Good.  Maybe he should get a bolt pistol, too?  For 1 point, it's an extra attack.

Tactical Squad
9 space marines+vet sarge
ML, plasma, powersword
razorback
pintlestorm

You can have up to 6 marines in a razorback. For 10 you'd need a Rhino.  Also, don't mix missile launchers and flamers.  Missile launchers are useless if you move, and flamers are useless if you don't.  I'd recommend taking a melta and a multi-melta.  Both reward you for getting in close and they're great anti-Tank.

Assault Marines(4+vet sarge),meltabomb,powerweapon
145

Predator
Autocannon
Las-sponsons.
130

Imo there are three valid configs for Predators:  Tri-las (all lascannons), Lascannon + Heavy Bolter sponsons, and Autocannon + Heavy Bolter sponsons.  This one is kinda...um... has issues.  Check the rules on Vehicle movement and you'll see why.

Whirlwind
85
(A minimum range that actually is feasible![compared to basilisk] I was compelled to finally try some artillery!)

I hear tell that Whirlies are fun.


I've never had good luck with Assault marines.  I'd rather see you play with another Predator or Whirlwind.  Also, consider the trait "See, But Don't Be Seen."  It will allow you to infiltrate your tac squads.  It's much less expensive than Rhinos, Razorbacks, or Assault Marines, and in my experience more effective.  Maybe not the style you're going for though.

[Magus_42]

Arkion, he's using the DA codex. Your first two concerns are invalid under those rules.

[*Striker*]

Some quick critiques of your list:

HQ:
Chaplain + jumpack
120
(tried to keep my hq simple, he will go with assault marines.  Too bad there is no two wound cheap captain in the DA codex)

Good.  Maybe he should get a bolt pistol, too?  For 1 point, it's an extra attack.

Tactical Squad
9 space marines+vet sarge
ML, plasma, powersword
razorback
pintlestorm

You can have up to 6 marines in a razorback. For 10 you'd need a Rhino.  Also, don't mix missile launchers and flamers.  Missile launchers are useless if you move, and flamers are useless if you don't.  I'd recommend taking a melta and a multi-melta.  Both reward you for getting in close and they're great anti-Tank.

Assault Marines(4+vet sarge),meltabomb,powerweapon
145

Predator
Autocannon
Las-sponsons.
130

Imo there are three valid configs for Predators:  Tri-las (all lascannons), Lascannon + Heavy Bolter sponsons, and Autocannon + Heavy Bolter sponsons.  This one is kinda...um... has issues.  Check the rules on Vehicle movement and you'll see why.

Whirlwind
85
(A minimum range that actually is feasible![compared to basilisk] I was compelled to finally try some artillery!)

I hear tell that Whirlies are fun.


I've never had good luck with Assault marines.  I'd rather see you play with another Predator or Whirlwind.  Also, consider the trait "See, But Don't Be Seen."  It will allow you to infiltrate your tac squads.  It's much less expensive than Rhinos, Razorbacks, or Assault Marines, and in my experience more effective.  Maybe not the style you're going for though.

Sorry Ark but all your critique there would only apply if i was using the vanilla space marine codex.  I'm using the dark angels codex. (Combat squads allows me split and have two 5-man squads, which explains the razorbacks.)

I might change to a TL las and heavybolter sponsons, since it does work out to the same overall price.  Are the weapons easily interchangeable for me to do some experimenting?

edit: Ack, ninja'd by Magus, why does that keep happening to me lately!?

[YuenglingDragon]

This is a Dark Angel list, Arkion.  Wrong Codex.

Edit: Damn you, Ninja Magus and Striker!  What the beslubber!

[Arkion]

Aaaaaaaah ok.  Whoa, DA codex is good, kinda.  Hmm.  Still, I think the predator concerns and your jump packy wackiness is valid.

[Aervyper Venom]

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