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Offline RezZzeD

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First shot with bugs
« on: January 2, 2008, 07:16:31 PM »
I've been an Eldar player and am starting a Nid army finally (was my first choice, but I had more Eldar)...Just looking for comments/suggestions on the 1500 pt list below.

HQ
Broodlord w/ feeder tendrils
Genestealer retinue (x8 stealers) w/ acid maw, scything talons

Troops
Genestealers x10
Genestealers x10
Hormagaunts x10 w/ toxin sacs, adrenal (+WS)
Gaunts x8 w/ without numbers, fleshborers
Gaunts x8 w/ without numbers, fleshborers

Elite
Warriors x3 w/ 1 BS, x2 devourers, all with scything talons and enh senses, extended carapace
Warriors x3 w/ 1 BS, x2 devourers, all with scything talons and enh senses, extended carapace
Lictors x2

Fast
Raveners x2 w/ rending claws
Raveners x2 w/ rending claws

Heavy
Fex -have ±58 points left to go toward him, looking for suggestions...

Thanks

Offline Benandorf

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Re: First shot with bugs
« Reply #1 on: January 2, 2008, 07:46:29 PM »
Feeder tendrils on something that already has WS7/WS6?  Really?  No.  Drop that from the Broodlord and Genestealers, it's not worth it, and will never have an real effect.  Also, I'm a big fan of Toxin Sacs on the broodlord, because it's not expensive, and wounding MEQs on a 2+ will be godsend.

Genestealers are best kept vanilla, as you did with troops, except for with Broodlord, where you need to give them EC, and nothing else.  Broodlord+Retinue will take an assload of fire, so if you upgrade them with other stuff it's both unnecessary (show me any unit that can survive a broodlord and big unit of genestealers charging it) and will give your opponent more points for each kill.

Hormagaunts are best kept vanilla, because they're only there to die and to tie up the enemy.  They will never be as good, points-for-points, as genestealers in combat, so keep them as cheap as possible.

Gaunts are good vanilla as well (meaning just with a weapon, fleshborer being the best).  Without number is a great upgrade on paper, but when it comes down to it, it's not much use.  You have to have your entire unit destroyed (which will not happen often, and when it does only very late in the game), and then they come back from your board edge, which means they rarely will get to do anything expect maybe capture objectives.

Warriors are okay, but would benefit from Toxin Sacs.  Also, since they're going to be close to the enemy anyways, I'd highly suggest Rending Claws over scything talons.  There will generally come a point in every game where you run out of good targets, and the rending claws helps keep the warriors killing.

Lictors suck.  They come out in a bad place, don't do much damage, and rarely can survive strikeback from whatever they charge.  Put those points elsewhere.

Good choice with raveners, but I'd suggest splitting them into 3 broods, 2/1/1 split.  The worse targets you give the opponent, the better.

As for the carnifex, I'd suggest a sniperfex.  More info on carnifexes here.

Overall, the list is decent, but you're really lacking in synapse.  Only 3 sources, one of which works like fast synapse due to infiltrate, but also this means it won't be able to hold anything with it at the start.  So you have 2 non-survivable synapse sources to cover your entire deployment area.  What you would benefit from is beefing up your numbers a bit, and picking up a trio of Zoanthropes.  At 1500 points, a Flyrant is generally a better choice than a Broodlord as well, but a Broodlord is workable (I used it myself as my only HQ choice for about 4 months).
Quote from: Yuenglingdragon
When life gives you anything, charge it with Genestealers.
Alarm clock? Genestealers.
Your boss? Genestealers.
The rednecks that cut in front of me at Wal-mart like I didn't have anything better to do than stand in line? Genestealers.

Quote from: unknown
Asking for advice on using VC to beat O&G is like saying "I'm 6'3", work out, and consider myself pretty tough.  Can anyone give me advice on how to beat up the handicapped kid down the street?"

Offline Apocalypse

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Re: First shot with bugs
« Reply #2 on: January 2, 2008, 07:53:32 PM »
I wont be able to write an in depth reply right now, but I will give you the gist of it.     If you drop the biomorphs off of EVERYTHING (except the warriors, they look fine,) you will be able to fit more models on the board. The key to a successfull nid army is alot like Eldar. You have alot of units that are good at one thing and one thing only, so you must use them in succession with other units in the army to create a "Coherent whole" The sum is only as great as the whole of its parts.    The units in a nid army alone are useless in the wrong situations (like assulting with firedragons.) If you build the units to do one thing and do it really well, you will be successfull in your slaughter.
Never argue with an idiot, they just drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.

There's a fine line between crazy and genious, I just choose to walk that line.

Offline RezZzeD

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Re: First shot with bugs
« Reply #3 on: January 2, 2008, 09:29:16 PM »
So for a revision, I'm looking at the following...

HQ
Broodlord w/Toxin Sacs (for the extra punch)
Genestealer (x8) retinue w/ extended carapace (for that extra protection)

Troops
Stealers x10
Stealers x10 (Cuz I'm an old Space Hulker)
Hormagaunts x10
Termagaunts x8 w/ fleshborers
Termagaunts x8 w/ fleshborers

Elite
Warrios x3 w/1 BS, 2 Devourers, Rending for all, Enh Senses, Extended Carapace, Toxin Sacs
Warrios x3 w/1 BS, 2 Devourers, Rending for all, Enh Senses, Extended Carapace, Toxin Sacs

Fast
Ravener w/ Rending Claws
Ravener w/ Rending Claws
Ravener w/ Rending Claws

Support
Sniperfex w/BS, VC, Reinforced chitin, enhanced senses
Zoanthrope x2 both w/ synapse and warp blast (for the Eldar player in me)

Totals: 1495

I still love the concept of Lictors (I love my Warp Spiders, very similar), but do understand the issues with them

Offline Benandorf

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Re: First shot with bugs
« Reply #4 on: January 2, 2008, 09:35:25 PM »
Looks pretty good on a unit-by-unit basis.

The army as a whole is just a bit low on numbers.  I'd probably drop Reinforced Chitin, since at 1500 points it's not likely the carnifex will take much damage if you park him in some 5+ or 4+ cover, and then either a squad of stealers, or maybe a ravener (maybe two) and a couple of genestealers off the retinue.  Hormagaunts really need to be at least 12 strong to be effective (and with only 1 squad, I'd say 14 is the bare minimum), and Termagants likewise need to be about 14 strong each before they do much more than die quickly.

In fact, I think the best choice is dropping all 3 Raveners, since with this few models they won't do too well anyways.  Then you could add either 4 hormagaunts and then 8 termagants to one squad and 6 to the other (leaving you at 1499, I think), or 6 hormagaunts and then 4 termagants to one squad and 6 to the other.

And to add to what Apocalypse said, you win with tyranids by overloading the enemy with priority targets.  If he has to choose between shooting a hormagaunt squad that will hit him next turn, a flyrant that will hit him next turn, a squad of genestealers that will hit him in 2 turns, a squad of termagants that's worth basically nothing but will ravage his line with fire if he doesn't take care of it, etc... Then you're doing it right.  When you see your opponent not sure of what to aim his guns at, you can feel confident that your chances of winning are very good.  And if you do it right, with the right luck, even the best opponent will be at a loss for what to shoot at.  Because everything has to die RIGHT NOW, and he just doesn't have enough guns.

I love the look on my opponent's face when he realizes that he doesn't have the firepower to kill everything before it hits.  And I also enjoy the win that generally follows right after.

If tyranids are done right, and not screwed by luck, no one has enough firepower to kill it all fast enough.

... God I love my bugs ;D
« Last Edit: January 2, 2008, 09:40:47 PM by Benandorf »
Quote from: Yuenglingdragon
When life gives you anything, charge it with Genestealers.
Alarm clock? Genestealers.
Your boss? Genestealers.
The rednecks that cut in front of me at Wal-mart like I didn't have anything better to do than stand in line? Genestealers.

Quote from: unknown
Asking for advice on using VC to beat O&G is like saying "I'm 6'3", work out, and consider myself pretty tough.  Can anyone give me advice on how to beat up the handicapped kid down the street?"

Offline RezZzeD

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Re: First shot with bugs
« Reply #5 on: January 2, 2008, 09:42:58 PM »
Dropping the Raveners and the Chitin Gets me up to 14 Hormagaunts and 2 squads of 16 Termagaunts

Total of 84 models and it is actually cheaper cashwise too...

Offline Benandorf

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Re: First shot with bugs
« Reply #6 on: January 2, 2008, 10:03:09 PM »
Then go with that.

Never underestimate termagants.  6 points of pure shooty ownage.
Quote from: Yuenglingdragon
When life gives you anything, charge it with Genestealers.
Alarm clock? Genestealers.
Your boss? Genestealers.
The rednecks that cut in front of me at Wal-mart like I didn't have anything better to do than stand in line? Genestealers.

Quote from: unknown
Asking for advice on using VC to beat O&G is like saying "I'm 6'3", work out, and consider myself pretty tough.  Can anyone give me advice on how to beat up the handicapped kid down the street?"

Offline Lazarus15

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Re: First shot with bugs
« Reply #7 on: January 3, 2008, 12:44:07 AM »
The only thing I would recommend at a larger game (1750 ish) is an Initiative boost on the hormagaunts.  Numbers, numbers, numbers, but with the Initiative boost, you are striking before marines, which in turn means less casualties on your end (T3 w/ a 6+ save isn't fantastic).  If you had to launch an assault outside synapse, this may be the make or break time.  This turns your hormagaunts from a tie up unit to a more powerful unit that can win combats.  Not to mention, if the squad is large enough you can keep them as a scoring unit. 

Termagaunts and biovores are some of the MOST overlooked units from an opponents side.  Famous phrase...."6 point models, what possible damage can they do..."
Kings of Khemri versus The Master of Change.

Warseer Member Charred Remains about the 5th Ed. "No Retreat Rule" :

"But this 'no retreat rule' thing now just doesn't have any drama.The rule executes with the speed of an oncoming sore throat. It's a slow dickover. Kinda like doing your taxes. I'd vote to change it."

Offline Benandorf

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Re: First shot with bugs
« Reply #8 on: January 3, 2008, 01:10:45 AM »
Maybe, but not a huge amount less, and you still kill the same amount of marines.  Rarely will a squad of marines wipe out your unit in the first turn of combat, and if you charge with any real numbers, they'll lose at least 2 or 3 (or more), so less will be attacking next round.

I'd rather have 11 hormagaunts than 10 with +I.  Because quite a few of those won't make it to combat, so why give your opponent extra points, even if there's not a ton?

I agree about termagants being overlooked, though I generally go the other way with it: I tell them flat out that they're 6-point models, and that shooting at them isn't very worthwhile, but they can put out a lot of fire.  Then I sit back and watch my opponent as he tries to figure out whether to ignore the 16 models that cost me less than 100 points, and let them gun down some marines, or if he should waste a bunch of shooting to kill them.

But I like to make sure my opponent knows what all my units do, and can do.  If it also happens to be usable as a psychological tactic... So be it. ;)
« Last Edit: January 3, 2008, 01:13:32 AM by Benandorf »
Quote from: Yuenglingdragon
When life gives you anything, charge it with Genestealers.
Alarm clock? Genestealers.
Your boss? Genestealers.
The rednecks that cut in front of me at Wal-mart like I didn't have anything better to do than stand in line? Genestealers.

Quote from: unknown
Asking for advice on using VC to beat O&G is like saying "I'm 6'3", work out, and consider myself pretty tough.  Can anyone give me advice on how to beat up the handicapped kid down the street?"

 


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