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Offline Colonel Church

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"Wrath of Kan" List design
« on: January 26, 2011, 06:01:29 PM »
 :o  ok, I am building my Ork army as a kan Wall -

The real debate will be dictated by the point size - (1500 & 2000 points) - 1500 point games are usually going to be doubles games:

In a 1500 point "fun" list I am toying with a variety of builds.  The 2000 point 1 on 1 list I would like to be more competitive, but not too worried.

My basic questions are centered around design -

1.  Is this the basic "Core" of the army list for the two point levels =

2000 points -
x2 Big Meks w/ KFF
x2 Deff Dreads
x9 Killa Kans

1500 points -
x1 Big Mek w/ KFF
x1 Deff Dread
x9 Killa Kans

I like the Core for both, but I haven't played it yet and was wondering what many do.  My second question is I see most limit the additional choices to "lots n lots of Boyz".  I agree this is obviously a good idea, but what other options have you played that had good results:

Things I want to try with my Kan Wall =

Nob Bikers - (besides Kans and Dreads these are my Favorite!)
Nobs and Warboss in a Trukk
Lootas
Grots - (Grots rule the world and just allows others to exist   :-)

Offline angel of death 007

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Re: "Wrath of Kan" List design
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2011, 07:05:04 PM »
Well having just used my 2000 point kan wall list at a GT I can give some assessments on my personal experiences.
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=209650.0

I will say that i really wish I would have ran two big Mek's w/ KFF as it would have allowed me to split my wall and run it in two parts.  This is crucial.  As most of the game tables we were on had a large piece of impassable terrain in the center of the table it was really a kick in the tactics for me.  Deciding when and how to divide my army worked for me but I really wish I would have had a 2nd mek. 

The best thing that I found out works is having some upredictability.  Snikrot with kommandos works great for me, I also use a squad of 10 lootas, and also a green baron. I used two green baron's this past time but honestly they didn't work as well as I had hoped. 

as far as 9 killa kans go.  I wouldn't recommend it without two big meks as they would be hard to cover with 1.  I have a hard enough time using 6 kans and 2 dreads and keeping them in kff range with obsticles and terrain. 

-Lootas work great.  Work for great fire support.  The problem can be you will be shooting thru your wall so therefore will be granting your opponent a cover save.   They are a good support unit.

-Nob bikers could work to flank ahead.  The problem will be they will be unsupported as the rest of your army will be moving very slow.  They could work to tie up your opponent or alpha strike something.  The big problem here is the points cost though.  And if you want them scoring u need a boss on a bike.  At 2000 points you will see a good sized nob biker squad with boss costing over a 1/3 the cost of your army.  Again.  in a speed freaks list you could do it.  In a kan wall list you will see it will really limit the options you can take. 

-Nobs and boss in a trukk will also fall into the same problem as the bikers..  they are going to be too fast for your army.  Not to mention the trukk will probably be one of the first things to get popped.  I tried fielding nobs on foot with a boss w/ BC.  It was an ok unit.  But really didn't add that much to my army or its function.

-grots.  a good backfield unit, can work to screen your lootas or use as a backfield scoring unit.   Can go to ground if they get fired on.  or be lined up against a board to prevent outflanking.  I would recommend 12-15 with a runtherd. 

I will say the biggest contributer to the success of my kan wall is snikrot though.  He causes my opponents to overreact and keep stuff back.  Allowing me to get my kans / wall into position. 


Offline Colonel Church

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Re: "Wrath of Kan" List design
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2011, 07:37:54 PM »
Good stuff - I have Snikrot, (1st model I purchased) so I can try that.  What do you equip his unit with and do you go full 15 or 10?

I think in the fun 1500 point list with doubles the Nob bikers would work.

Offline SKEETERGOD

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Re: "Wrath of Kan" List design
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2011, 07:55:04 PM »
Well, since you asked... I am a big fan of the Green Baron. Check out the slight comment I left here:
http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=209993.msg2565295#msg2565295

Now to add one thing, there can be only one. If you take 2 or more the returns are amazingly diminishing, and often (as AOD007 found out) disappointing. So just take one.

I do not play kan wall, but I know it is a very successful ork build, I see it in action a lot, and have only had to battle it once (we fought to a mutual annihilation) and my green baron took out his dred and was shot down by his kans, and his green baron killed a truck and my skorcha before getting shot down by a rockit buggy.

So take a green baron.
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Offline Azonalanthious

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Re: "Wrath of Kan" List design
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2011, 08:05:56 PM »
Good stuff - I have Snikrot, (1st model I purchased) so I can try that.  What do you equip his unit with and do you go full 15 or 10?

I think in the fun 1500 point list with doubles the Nob bikers would work.

In a 1500 point list, a single full-sized nob biker unit will decent gear will be ~40-50% of your list.  Your kans will be ~30-35%.  Leaving you ~300 points for everything else.  Just warning you -- nob bikers can be nasty enough to be worth it but they eat points like no other.  In most cases they should be approached as 'I'm building a nob biker list, now what else can I afford' rather then 'I want to add not bikers to a <fill in the blank> list.'

As for snikrot, I tend to say go either minimum squad size or maximum.  He scares people darn near as much with just the minimum and forces cautious moves on their part, so by keeping him at minimum size you can accomplish that on the cheap.  Conversely, at minimum size he will die the turn after he arrives -- count on it.  At full size (in which case I would also take both burnas), you bring at least a little survivablity to the squad, particularly if he holds off on arriving for a turn or two so the rest of your army arrives and he isn't unsupported.  Medium sized buys you the worst of both worlds -- more expensive then minimum sized, but still probably going to die the turn it arrives.

Offline Colonel Church

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Re: "Wrath of Kan" List design
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2011, 10:33:22 PM »
in the 2000 point list you are correct since that would be 1 on 1 and anything faster then the Kans that isn't outflanking is all by itself.

In a group game I tend to not have to worry as much.

I will try a 1500 list with Warboss on bike w/ 5 Nob bikers along with the 1500 standard Kan list. I will also add Snikrot and see how that goes.

Offline angel of death 007

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Re: "Wrath of Kan" List design
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2011, 10:41:15 PM »
main thing with snikrot and kommandos is that if you plan on throwing them into infantry expect to lose a few boyz.  Since ork int is pretty crappy when I charge them into a full 10 man squad of something I have a tendency to lose 3-4 kommandos before I even get a chance to strike. 

I take snikrot, 2 burna kommandos, and 9 regular kommandos in my list.  I have run it as a smaller squad before.   The main thing that you don't want is to have to roll saves on each model for wounds.  As you could lose a burna boy before you get that pw attack.  Most of the time I am going up against marine so the power weapons are more needed then the flamer template.   Not to mention a flamer template can also leave you out of charge range if u take out too many bodies (as what happened to me when i flamed a squad of lootas)  If i was going to go smaller which I have done before.   I would probably go Snikrot, 2 burna kommandos and 5 regular kommandos.  Smaller than that i doubt would work.

I don't really take Snikrot for his effectiveness as much as I take him for the psychological aspect that it deals to my opponent.  In my last tournament I think he effectively worked to eliminate a unit once.  Which was the lootas which two of them remained standing out of charge range. 

The great thing is that you can throw them into a squad of snipers, broadsides, pathfinders, devestators, and they will take out or tie up the unit nicely.  This will make those heavy weapon troops unable to shoot and will either tie them up or eliminate them, either way it is very effective.  Also works great for thunderfire cannons, and heavy weapon teams. 

I like having distractors like these that take fire/ attention away from my boyz and my wall.

Just a note of caution.  Becareful how many toys you take as it will limit the effectiveness of your wall and your units. 

In a group game I just try to make up for what my partner lacks.  I also make sure that my army is as self sufficient as possible.

Offline Jack_Merridew

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Re: "Wrath of Kan" List design
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2011, 09:12:21 PM »
I'm still fine tuning my tactica on the use of the baron snikky and zags, but as for snik...

Take him with two burnas and two other kommandos.  It's all about targeting and striking hard where it will do the most damage.  As good as snikky is in assault, his benefit of coming in on your choice of sides is where it is at.  You want to drop burnas on a light armor squad....do it.  You want to assault against rear armor of something nasty do it.  It's an investment of 140+ points, so don't waste it on something unless it's worth it.  I'd waste the whole squad on a vindi and have in the past many times.  It won't get the points back, but if they can disable the demolisher cannon or better yet destroy it (regular kommandos can glance AV 10 on a charge if they roll wel, and snikky eats it) then that saves a ton of boys.

I like to keep it as minimal as possible, but I like to have those burnas regardless as sometimes you just don't get a good vehicle to target.  The burnas give you a chance to hurt MEQ or better in the assault.  Snikky on the charge will normally go first or on same turn as first, so once he's made his attacks, use him to soak up wounds so the burnas can get thier attacks in.  They don't have a bosspole, so odds are good even if somehow one of them survives combat he will run after.  As for the extra two kommandos, They are a buffer of wounds to sacrifice.  Just enough to keep burnas alive, and not enough to make the unit too expensive.  If the 4 wounds of the kommandos and snikky are not enough, you probably should have chosen a softer target.

Offline angel of death 007

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Re: "Wrath of Kan" List design
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, 02:54:53 AM »
Take him with two burnas and two other kommandos.  It's all about targeting and striking hard where it will do the most damage.  As good as snikky is in assault, his benefit of coming in on your choice of sides is where it is at.  You want to drop burnas on a light armor squad....do it.  You want to assault against rear armor of something nasty do it.  It's an investment of 140+ points, so don't waste it on something unless it's worth it.  I'd waste the whole squad on a vindi and have in the past many times.  It won't get the points back, but if they can disable the demolisher cannon or better yet destroy it (regular kommandos can glance AV 10 on a charge if they roll wel, and snikky eats it) then that saves a ton of boys.

Snikky on the charge will normally go first or on same turn as first, so once he's made his attacks, use him to soak up wounds so the burnas can get thier attacks in. 

 If the 4 wounds of the kommandos and snikky are not enough, you probably should have chosen a softer target.

See here is where i disagree.  I save my green baron for dealing with back field armor.  I dunno how in turn 2+ a vindicator is in your opponents backfield as they are usually advancing so they can fire on turn 1 or turn 2 which is no where near table edge assault range.  whirlwinds, hammerheads, russes, hydras, I will agree will stay back field..  along with prisms. 

Sniky charges and goes at the same time...   so will probably take 1 or two meq.  meq squad (considering around 10) will probably get around 4 wounds...  which wound allocation will give ya a wound on sniky, one on your burnas, and possibly two on your kommandos.  I don't see how you can allocate more than one wound on sniky? 

Seeing as how armor doesn't have to stay locked in combat I don't find it the best target.  I like snipers, pathfinders, thunderfire cannons, devestators or anything infantry related that sits and shoots.   Sometimes it isn't about destroying the unit you hit so much as tying it up for a turn or two and keeping it from shooting.  With armor that isn't always so. 

On average I take four wounds to basic stuff (without power weapons / fists).  I have used my kommandos to tie up two fire warrior squads before that were deployed close. 

I don't always think of them as taking out a unit as i want them to get stuck in.  This way my opponent has to deal with them with another squad.  This enables me to tie up one shooty squad and get another nasty squad to come after them rather than advance toward my kan wall / boyz.  I used this to great effect in my last game of the tournament when my opponent dedicated his storm hammer / storm shield terminators toward snik while my kan wall and boyz held across all 3 centerfield objectives.   

My 11 kommands plus snik and 2 burnas weigh in at a very mild 225 points.  But usually tie up or destroy one of my opponents squads and they have to dedicate two shooting squads to eliminate it, or one assault squad.

Offline Jack_Merridew

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Re: "Wrath of Kan" List design
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2011, 11:42:37 AM »
As for vindi's staying back, it might just be my local meta.  I charge forward with my BW's and def rollas so they always stay back and pot shot me as I move forward.  They also tend to only think of snikky coming from behind them and I get them on the side of the boards too.

I love snikky.

I admit I'd love to take a full squad, but normally I don't have the points.  That's why I like the minimal squad.  It gives me options and is very killy still.

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Re: "Wrath of Kan" List design
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2011, 09:59:04 PM »
Personally I feel it works best at 1750+ points for a number of reasons namely able to squeeze more in the list.
To see more check out my blog

 


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