40K Online
Main => Rules and Announcements => Topic started by: Kindred on January 8, 2012, 10:35:29 AM
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I apologize for the political pop-up/advertisement on the front page.
I would not normally inflict such a thing on our users, but the SOPA legislation is such a critical issue that would affect ALL internet users, regardless of country of origin, that I felt that the news needed to be spread.
The pop-up should only trigger once on any individual computer's visit to the main site page.
The bill goes before the American Senate on January 24th. After that time, if approved, it will go to the President.
The problem with SOPA is not the concept, but the implementation. As you all know, we are extremely vigilant on this site, regarding the protection of Intellectual Property (IP) and Copyrights. We agree with the CONCEPT and INTENTION of the SOPA bill. Protection of IP is a critical issue on the web, with pirate sites and download/redistribution of copyrighted material. The issue with SOPA is that the bill was written by individuals who have only a passing knowledge (f that) of the web, its use and the technology. As written, (like the Patriot Act) it basically gives the US government and other agencies the right to shut down a website and prosecute the owners on the thinnest of accusations (not even proof).
There are several alternative (and well thought) legislative concepts already written and presented, including the recommendation of the so-called OPEN act (from keepthewebopen.com)
http://www.keepthewebopen.com/assets/pdfs/12-13-11%20Big%20Web%20Companies%20OPEN%20Endorsement%20Letter.pdf (http://www.keepthewebopen.com/assets/pdfs/12-13-11%20Big%20Web%20Companies%20OPEN%20Endorsement%20Letter.pdf)
http://www.keepthewebopen.com/sopa-vs-open (http://www.keepthewebopen.com/sopa-vs-open)
but SOPA and the equally problematic PIPA are still being voted on.
It is important that every American contact his or her senator (and representative) and let them know that the SOPA and PIPA legislation needs to be rethought and redrafted.
As part of this, we will be participating in the Internet Blackout, scheduled (tentatively) for January 23.
http://www.searchenginejournal.com/tech-giants-support-open-act/38534/ (http://www.searchenginejournal.com/tech-giants-support-open-act/38534/)
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/12/30/will-google-amazon-and-facebook-blackout-net/ (http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/12/30/will-google-amazon-and-facebook-blackout-net/)
http://www.imperfectparent.com/topics/2012/01/04/sopa-blackout-facebook-google-twitter-amazon-and-others/ (http://www.imperfectparent.com/topics/2012/01/04/sopa-blackout-facebook-google-twitter-amazon-and-others/)
If this bill passes, the following is a screen that will become quite prevalent.
[smg id=4423 type=full align=center caption="Content Blocked - SOPA"]
[smg id=4424 type=full align=center caption="Censored - SOPA"]
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I have gotten the pop-up twice.
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I got a second go around as well which probably means it's on a 24 hour cycle or refresh. No harm, no foul.
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Alright, thanks. Wanted to make sure that snotlings weren't infiltrating my IP address or something ;)
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If you move to another IP then the popup will not know it is you so it will refresh.
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I hate to say this but is this the right place for such a a political statement.
Discussing the impact of a political event os one thing but by having that statement on the front pae this website is now aligning itself on one side of the political argument.
I just hope whoever is responsible has thought through the consequences.
Persoanlly if this site is now going to be used for political statemtn not matter what that be, SOPA, Free Palestine, Democracy in China, Gay Rights whatever then I shall cease to be a member.
This is a hobby website concerning itself with an imaginary world and I hope it continuers as such.
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I think there is a slight difference between the issues you compare SOPA to and the nature of this place as an open community on the internet - It is in the interest of this site and many others that SOPA does not get passed, not necessarily as a political cause but as an attempt to keep the freedom of places like this.
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I agree with Benis on this, as there is a clear interest for this site to campaign for this bill not to be passed. If the bill is going to impact on our ability to discuss a hobby as we have been able to previously, then it makes sense for an announcement to be made to make forum members aware, and give them the opportunity to protest if they choose to do so.
This hardly amounts to the politicisation of 40K Online ;).
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I hate to say this but is this the right place for such a a political statement.
Well, if it would make you feel any better, you could always take it to the Discussion forum...
Or the thread I created a long while ago: SOPA: The Internet War (US Congress Bill to control the Internet) (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=219140.0) (I asked Kindred already about linking it from here.)
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I hate to say this but is this the right place for such a a political statement.
Discussing the impact of a political event os one thing but by having that statement on the front pae this website is now aligning itself on one side of the political argument.
I agree with Benis, Iri and the admins on this one. If a bill was before the government that would ban "The sale of produces pertaining to the depiction of fictional or otherwise unproven universes" then this community would have to, by its very nature, stand opposed to it. In the same way, SOPA directly limits this community, which by its very nature pushes the limits of the legeslation. As such, 40kO is mandated by its existance to pick a particular side, so i don't think the popup is in anyway an attempt to push a particular political idea.
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I fully agree with all of you on the issue at hand and I do not want this buill or any like it to be passed but that is not my point.
By aligning this website as has been done the site is being made into a political entity and those who use the site are unwittingly will be seen as supporting the view of that site. Remember there are pleanty of organisation which monitor what users visits what sites...
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I mean that the very existance of this site is in implied opposition of the bill. I see no problem with making an implied possition a codified one.
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Persoanlly if this site is now going to be used for political statemtn not matter what that be, SOPA, Free Palestine, Democracy in China, Gay Rights whatever then I shall cease to be a member.
Bye, have fun. Don't let the logout button hit you on the way out. ;D
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Persoanlly if this site is now going to be used for political statemtn not matter what that be, SOPA, Free Palestine, Democracy in China, Gay Rights whatever then I shall cease to be a member.
The site isn't being used for political statement. The site is informing the masses about this upcoming bill, provides necessary information regarding it, allows the user to make their own choice on the bill, and asks you to do one thing if you oppose the bill. And then what does it do? Oh yeah, beslubbers right off and you never see the message again.
There is a bit of a difference between informing people about what SOPA is going to do to the internet and the other highly debated issues you listed.
If the Canadian government were to put a bill forward saying that murder isn't illegal if the victim is over the age of 80, would you be this upset if the site did what it is doing now? Brought the bill to your attention for the sheer wrongness of it and asked you to do all that you can to stop something that clearly isn't right? (Reason I specified Canadian government is because Raine is Canadian)
If it bothers you so much what has been done, then I think Syranaul said it best:
Bye, have fun. Don't let the logout button hit you on the way out. ;D
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Persoanlly if this site is now going to be used for political statemtn not matter what that be, SOPA, Free Palestine, Democracy in China, Gay Rights whatever then I shall cease to be a member.
The site isn't being used for political statement. The site is informing the masses about this upcoming bill, provides necessary information regarding it, allows the user to make their own choice on the bill, and asks you to do one thing if you oppose the bill. And then what does it do? Oh yeah, beslubbers right off and you never see the message again.
Indeed, Grand Master Lomandalis had hit on the important point of why Kindred decided to put that up on this site. This is because SOPA will have an impact on 40KOnline forum whether it is directly or indirectly. (Although most likely to be direct since the server is located in the US.)
In fact, I was tempted to ask Kindred & possibly the majority of staffs if we could advertise about this back in mid December or after I posted up the thread about SOPA. However, I chose not to, because I feel that I might be overstepping the boundary of my position as a normal user of this forum. :-\
Additionally, I personally think Kindred could have chosen other better words rather than "Political pop-up", because the thread name & metadata (or information/meaning associating with the words) can give one a wrong impression of the point made in this announcement.
@Arquarian - I think I also should mention to you that many many other websites, social networking ones, and other online communities also did put up such announcement about SOPA to increase public awareness. To name a few... Mozilla, Tumblr, Reddit, 4chan, etc...
Anywho, I'm personally glad that Kindred decided to do this. :)
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By aligning this website as has been done the site is being made into a political entity and those who use the site are unwittingly will be seen as supporting the view of that site. Remember there are pleanty of organisation which monitor what users visits what sites...
You have freedom of choice. If you had no freedom of choice, the staff would simply say if you don't sign this you're banned from the forum. There are no whips forcing you to vote in favour of the motion ;).
All the pop-up is doing is raising awareness. For example, I don't follow US domestic policy very closely, so I wasn't aware of just how drastically the bill could impinge on my internet access, but this pop-up has made me aware. It did not, however, compel me to vote.
If you don't want to vote, then you don't have to, so this idea the site has somehow become a political entity seems misplaced to me.
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You must admit you can tell the difference between discussing political topics and having a statement, however innocuous, implying a position on a topical political matter.
I say again I oppose this bill and all infringements on any civil liberties the world throughout. This bill is an impingement on my own civil liberties which is issue number one (for me) the fact that I have NO SAY WHATSOEVER, being an Englishman, is issue number two. BUT I do not think that here is the correct place to make a stand. By having the pop I believe you are making the site political.
I'm clearly not going to say any opinions and as has been stated we are all free to our own. Mine is that I don not agree with this site hosting any pop up / banner or other device which clearly implies a political stand point. However righteous that stand point may be.
@ Farceseer Syranaul. Childish.
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You are free to disagree with whatever you like. You are also free to stop frequenting the site if it means that much to you.
However, as I, and others, have already said - The implementation of SOPA and/or PIPA would directly and adversely affect this site - potentially opening the site, the staff and Raine to fines and shut-down, if not prison (since Raine is Canadian). Therefor, I deemed it critical to notify the users of the situation.
As was also said, I probably mis-typed when I titled this thread "political" since the pop-up is not actually, specifically political in nature, but there it is...
live with it and stay or don't and leave... as you see fit.
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In a way, the site is political, simply because it is on the internet. Its about survival, pure and simple.
As a moderator on the Starcast forums (SCII podcast, (shamelessplug)), we had a thread about SOPA made and I was like "Mhm. Survival of the internet....good announcement topic."
Don't need no admin permissions if you're insane, you see.
Perhaps you've read the Dune Prequels and the Zensunni, or heard of "Belgium." Belgium was neutral. Belgium got streamrolled in both WWs. It was neutral, mind you. But this is a fight of survival. The nice thing is that I think we do have a couple of precedents in our favor, in that even if it passes, there is the Supreme Court.
If you use the internet, there is no middle ground. Its the Internet vs. SOPA.
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As far as "politicizing" the forum into taking one side of an issue, as opposed to none at all, it goes something like this.
We are not a government agency. This is a privately owned site. We can therefore cater to any (legal) content or group that we choose. We have chosen to narrow that field down to Hobbies -> Games -> Wargames -> Miniature Wargames -> Games Workshop-based Miniature Wargames -> 40k/FB. We have now, if you want to see this as another standpoint, narrowed it further to Hobbies -> Games -> Wargames -> Miniature Wargames -> Games Workshop-based Miniature Wargames -> 40k/FB -> Players of 40k/FB that would like to keep the internet.
If this is an issue for you then I am sorry to see you go, but this is really very much a no-brainer as far as I can see it, philosophically, morally and politically. If we have made it "Players of 40k/FB that would like legalize childporn" or "Players of 40k/FB that would like to eradicate north Korea" I can see where your point of contention would be, but in this case it seems more of "high horse-ing" to me than anything else.
And there ARE things you can do about SOPA even though you are not a US resident. I am not a US resident and I am involved in this. You can too.
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That's some scary amphetamine parrot coming from the US these days. I thought that anti-terror act which was approved lately was a hoax, but then it wasn't. Even China seems to be a more liberal place. I mean, downloading music and/or films is perfectly legal in my country. I would hate to see that change (i.e. sources not being available anymore).
GW? I have somewhat lost my faith in them, wouldn't be surprised to see them starting a crusade against Fansites should laws allow for that.
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Bashing the US has become as much a hobby as 40k aint it? 60% of conversations I hear insults not only the government, but the citizens. So many good people get collected into the bargain of dumb Americans. I feel bad for them. And I cant do anything because if I speak up about how the US has all sorts of cool stuff, I just get drowned out by a stupid economic rant about debt, fat people and how stupid capitalism is. Whenever I say they are being racist towards Americans, its the same old routine. "NO, because lots of different people live in America." But for some reason pulling the race card works if you say something about China, India, even Canada sometimes. Insulting the US has become too regular and its quite depressing.
And I dont approve of this SOPA thing, but I am not sure how it will effect Canadians, any info on that or am I missing something?
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And I dont approve of this SOPA thing, but I am not sure how it will effect Canadians, any info on that or am I missing something?
For education purpose or any more info, simply follow the link I gave earlier in this thread...
Or the thread I created a long while ago: SOPA: The Internet War (US Congress Bill to control the Internet) (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=219140.0) (I asked Kindred already about linking it from here.)
I put up all the info + a few youtube videos for explanation in there which should be more than enough to grasp of what could happen worldwide if SOPA ever passes.
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Bashing the US has become as much a hobby as 40k aint it? 60% of conversations I hear insults not only the government, but the citizens. So many good people get collected into the bargain of dumb Americans. I feel bad for them. And I cant do anything because if I speak up about how the US has all sorts of cool stuff, I just get drowned out by a stupid economic rant about debt, fat people and how stupid capitalism is. Whenever I say they are being racist towards Americans, its the same old routine. "NO, because lots of different people live in America." But for some reason pulling the race card works if you say something about China, India, even Canada sometimes. Insulting the US has become too regular and its quite depressing.
And I dont approve of this SOPA thing, but I am not sure how it will effect Canadians, any info on that or am I missing something?
I've noticed that too. Pretty sad considering;
U.S GDP per capita-15th in the world
Japanese GDP per Capita-18th (Followed closely by Germany in 19th)-Note Japan has rather western economic views.
Iran GDP per capita-82nd-Simply for Comparison, because North Korea is like, at the bottom.
Chinese GDP per capita-90th (Oh, and their economy is going to tank when their, what, two trillion working classmen end up being 55-80 and needing the 1 trillion new working class to support them (1 child per couple, remember?- Just imagine what SS and medicare is doing to the U.S and then multiply that by infinity).
(Compared alot to U.S)
U.S System of Economics-Capitalism
Soviet Union System- Communism
End Result; There's...there's no Soviet Union anymore comrades.
Fun Fact; India was at one point Socialist! It's economy tanked! Really badly. It was brought up through Capitalism!
1% vs. 99%- 3 Million vs. 297million.
Average U.S Standard of living-Not Starving, easy access to clean food and medicine in most cases.
Americans-Made up of so many races that we can be racist to anybody collectively.
Americans-One ethnic group (Oh, and we can have our cool towers exploded.)
Americans are fat-
Interestingly, moderately obese people die last (more fat reserves than healthy muscle people but not so fat they die), fat was often cited as an attractive quality until the U.S changed that, fat people are often seen as more successful-richer-more food.
I think people hate on the U.S because it's currently trending. I suppose I'm a political hipster of sorts, supporting a country and system that's worked for over about 250 years or so, and is most well equipped to last forever. I don't even nessacarily believe this to be true-its just the data saying it, not me (I believe it though). *shrug*
More problems caused by people who complain about everything going wrong that things actually going wrong.
Reminds me of the Capitalist vs. Socialist debate on my other forums...got broken up by a political science major. Socialist and I are friends too.
Oh, and SOPA is bad, vote against it. But also tell people you know that don't go on the internet as often too-tell everyone. Vote!
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Thanks Wper :D
And crew4man, I agree on everything. Not so long ago being fat was great! A sign of opulence, extra warmth, and a longer lifespan. Nothing in existence is internally bad, and people are flipping this obesity thing out the window. Just saying its a epidemic makes me want to punch someone in the face.
And you dont have to be a political hipster to not hate on America. You just dont have to be a narrow minded, blind folded racist douche that a vast majority of people are. It disgusts me vastly. The WORST part is that Native Americans in both Canada and America (the real Americans) are the same race, and everyone white is European. If the USA is going to receive this hate, I would rather have Canada get it as well, just so stupid high horsing Canadians realized that we are identical, and so it can stop me from feeling bad for Americans.
Arrrrgh! >:(
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[gmod]This isn't the Discussion Board and it's no longer 2003. ON TOPIC rather than yet another woo hoo America or reverse thread. We've been there and done that often enough the cool kids can leave it alone this time. [/gmod]
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Personally, I'm happy 40KO did the Pop-Up. More people need to know about it in the US; I live in the US (btw, it has a 98% disapproval rating and supporters like Sony, Nintendo, Comcast, etc are dropping support... despite being sponsors to get it into voting).
As for bashing the US... well it's like US citizens thinking Iranian citizens hate them. Misinformation is the dose of the day. The more social the world becomes, given labels and groupings, the more irrational perspectives become like paranoia and feed on gossip and propaganda (PIPA/SOPA both offer a political/corporate vehicle for the later... which is another reason I am against the black list legislation). I'm also dead against any law that says you don't get due process to defend yourself... we do innocent until proven guilty here. it should stay that way.
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Please note: Although the current SOPA bill has been placed on administrative hold, it is not "dead". They will try to slip it in once they feel that people have stopped watching.
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PIPA is still in existence as well and while being slightly less vile in concept it's still deeply flawed and wide open to abuse.
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reddit had a good write-up on it earlier today (dunno if its still down/up, respectively).
Looks like the SOPA-hold also involves a bit of rewriting. I saw multiple mentions that the DNS portion is suppose to be deleted. Also, I saw that the white house is polishing it's veto stick.
PIPA is definitely getting less press.
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I'm not American, but aren't both bills unconstitutional, per the First Amendment?
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There are a lot of bills that have wording coming out which goes against the American Constitution it seems... (NDAA)
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ah, but see the "cleverness". Free speech is not quite all that some people claim it is (should be).
Your allowed free speech as long as that speech is not illegal (i.e. speech which promotes hatred or which causes a condition of endangerment nor speech which encourages illegal acts)
(e.g. I can be arrested if I scream racial profanities at an event... I can be arrested if I scream "fire" in a movie theatre... I can be arrested for encouraging people to go out and steal things)
So, this law makes whatever site they accuse to be illegal for no other reason than they have accused it.... wow. some twisted logic there.
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You must admit you can tell the difference between discussing political topics and having a statement, however innocuous, implying a position on a topical political matter.
I say again I oppose this bill and all infringements on any civil liberties the world throughout. This bill is an impingement on my own civil liberties which is issue number one (for me) the fact that I have NO SAY WHATSOEVER, being an Englishman, is issue number two. BUT I do not think that here is the correct place to make a stand. By having the pop I believe you are making the site political.
I'm clearly not going to say any opinions and as has been stated we are all free to our own. Mine is that I don not agree with this site hosting any pop up / banner or other device which clearly implies a political stand point. However righteous that stand point may be.
@ Farceseer Syranaul. Childish.
Ok. But if you expect a privately hosted website to choose not to spread political awareness about trends in politics that effect the premise of their very existence (considering this is a website dedicated to a product which is not owned by the owner of the website) then the only person you're conning is yourself.
The idea that this forum can take an a-political stance on the issue is a false dichotomy. Where this trend towards the internet being a police-able place, and notably the idea that the internet should be policed for the interests of big business, is something that is growing, these services can't continue to be provided for your use indefinitely without the people who run the forum using the capacity they have to get information out to browsers so that they know what is going on.
This isn't exactly the same as the admins issuing a decree about Palestine, or the potential of war with North Korea. There's nothing to be gained in having a sulk about people wanting to protect the service they provide for you.
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... more over, provided free of charge and regardless of their own expense.
I think the actions taken were tasteful and wholly appropriate, simply justifiable by private circumstance - say nothing of the larger contexts. Push back, at least from my perspective, lands on a crossroads of apathy and distrupted escapism... I'd remind those the world continues spinning for better or worse, despite putting one's head in the sand (which we all occassionally do). But then every so often, something comes along that garners attention rather than supporting the absurdity that doing nothing will maintain the same old thing and it will all work out.
Having received responses from my Senators and Congressmen, it seems 2/3 are pulling support away - at least under the promise of extensive revisions. The numbers I've seen seem to average approximately 300,000 emails per representative in a short amount of time against the legislation.