Topic: Guns

[-Makenshi-]

ok then being a citizen of the UK i have little experience with guns and find it hard to put myself in american shoes, however after hearing some figures it seems as though this is a bigger problem than i thought, one such figure was there are 8 times more gun shops than mcdonalds in the US

now, i personally dont have a problem with PISTOLS, but Uzis and machine gusn are pushing it IMHO, however as i said i dont have enough personal experience with this

also i started reading 'dude wheres my country' and read an article about the author, which is another thing that got me thinking

my question is this, what are your opinions on the gun laws? simpel as that, however please keep it civil and by all means post even if (like me) you live somewhere very different from the US, however i am particularily intrested in the 'average' American view

[Dark Exodus]

In my opinion a pistol is worse than a rifle, it has little hunting use and is easy to conceal so it is more likely to be used for a crime.
I don't think machinguns are legal in any state, after all what government would want its citizens to be lugging around MG3's?

I only have an air rifle though and I'm not American.

[Aesir Yggdrasil]

Beware what you beleive from the works of Moore. It's all as tainted as the propaganda spewed by Bush.

Anywho, about gun laws, as a Canadian, let me tell you right off: THEY DO NOT WORK. That simple. Much like communism, they're a good idea, but don't work in practice. A national gun registery just sucks the dollars down, and people always have the black market if they really want a machine gun. Sure they're a good idea, heck if they didn't cost so freakin' much, they could put a large dent in gun ownership. Oh wait, they do! So gun laws basicaly upset the people (taxes being wasted, again ) and the gun companies (less people buying product).

[Scars]

The only guns that should be legal are those that have a valid legal purpose. Pistols, uzis, AK-47s, M-16s....none of these have any legal purpose. Hunting rifles and shotguns on the otherhand, do have a legal purpose.

As far as I know MGs aren't legal due to some technical difference. Rate of fire or somthing?

Gun laws don't work as they're so half assed. Secondly they are underminded by organised crime (who do most of the gun running) and more importantly the fact that the authorities refuse to do anything about said crime.

[XfinianX]

am i in favour of people having guns? No of course not.
Am i going to stop them? Yes. Well.... partially.

im not infavour of ANYONE having an assault weapon - you're not a soldier, you don't need it. For sport/hunting (as much as i disagree with the latter) i think its ok to have a rifle/shotgun as needed

Now the whole "for my own defence" thing. Thats where it gets a bit shady. Its all a bit of a slippery slope - the more people who HAVE guns, the more people who will feel the need to get a gun to defend themselves. So unfortunately when a fight breaks out, the more people will be around to draw guns and start shooting.

Lets not be niave and think a ban on guns will solve the problem outright. And lets not think gun registry will solve the problem either. If people want a gun for criminal purposes then they will GET a gun by any means necisary (criminal or otherwise). Now heres usually where people jump in again with the personal defence argument "wah wah waaaah! they're gunna get guns! i need a gun to defend myself" and we go back to the escalation problem again.

After the dunblane incident we band most guns in the UK - and since then there has been an increase in gun crime (one of the pro-gun lobbies favourite points). But don't just look at the bottom line - there are other factors. Cultures which promote a gun toting life style (such as gangsta rap - the anti-crime medias favourite whipping boy), and weapon carrying cultures in general have been on the increase. And its not just gun crime - street crime in general is on the up. What id be interested in seeing is if the total % of gun crime is actually going up or down in comparison to before the ban.

As for the states - the whole 2nd amendmant right to bare arms (is it 2nd? 4th? i don't know.) - well yes, they can MODIFY that. people can still carry arms. But once again lets point out, when they wrote that amendment in 18-blah-di-blah (once again my knowledge of american history SHINES through ), they had muskets, not 900 rounds-per-minute assault rifles spiting out enough bullets to take down hundreds of people in the same time it would have taken the average soldier to fire of 3-4 shots. Commen sense dictates that maybe things should be adjusted to allow for this

the real question boils down to this: What need does the average citizen have, BEYOND paranoid fantasies of the government turning dictatorship or being invaded by "those damn reds", for any form of assualt weapon.

[[dixon]]

Our good ole 2nd amendment is written pretty poorly: 'A well kept militia being neccessary to the survival of the state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.'  (I may have messed up a few words, but thats pretty accurate.  Its been awhile since I studied this last)  So this can be interpreted as you only need guns for the militia, which no longer exists.

[XfinianX]

So this can be interpreted as you only need guns for the militia, which no longer exists.

except in michigan

[Slappy]

I have owned plenty of assault rifles and combat shotguns in my day.  I still have quite a collection of guns, but nothing impressive.  I believe you should be allowed to own whatever guns you want, granted you have no criminal background.  Of course, that is exactly how it is here.  Pistols, shotgns, rifles, etc. all you have to be is of a certian age and you can buy them and all you get is a reciept back.  No registration or anything.  Pay cash if you want.  Fully automatic guns are legal but you gotta register them with the federal government and they are a tad expensive.  Several of my own gun owning friends own full auto guns which we shoot every now and then.  The gun shop to McDonalds ratio is untrue of course.  I love guns and I loathe all the self-hating hippies who try to ban them.

[Spiritbw]

I'm of two minds on this issue.  On one hand, the total banning of guns I see as being just plain crazy.  On the other, the total choice and freedom of weapons the United States has is just as crazy.

On banning weapons I think it's more of a limiting factor.  Hunting rifles are okay, as are shotguns for bird hunting and trap shooting.  Pistols on a shooting range are no problem but unless your in law enforcment or security you really should have a pistol and never concealed unless your undercover.  Assault weapons, SMGs, etc, are something no citizen should need outside of fighting for thier country.  I could see it if it was a replica, a approximation lacking internal workings or build with the barrel and other parts intended to breakdown if ever attempted to fire live.  The problem of gun related crime does tend to be in the people who wield them but let's not make it any easier for them to get them by having them in any home.  Getting guns across the border does cost more than having the local thug break into the gun lover's home while he's off on vacation. 

Also some of those crimes are by having people who have no idea about how to handle a gun but own one anyway for 'thier protection'.  More gun deaths result of people leaving loaded weaponswhere kids can get them, improper cleaning and overly enthusiastic repeling of home invaders that turn out to be the spouse getting a glass of milk.  Gun education should always be required before a person can get a firearm.  This means that unless you can pass a test showing you know how to clean, break down and put together a gun as well as basic safe handling, you cannot purchase a gun and that just the standard longarms.  Pistols are something yet again, as these can be easily concealed and tend to be the weapon of choice for the movie educated it isn't such a bad idea to have some form of registry for them and stricter handling laws. 

On the other hand, having a Registry of all guns as they have tried to put in place here in Canada is just stupid.  As stated, most weapons are smuggled in anyhow it really doesn't help with stopping crime.  All it is  more book keeping and even if it did work it only would help if the gun is reported stolen.  If they reported it stolen in the first place the police would already have all the info the registry is suppose to supply.  However I think the other measures in place help alot.  You must have a gun safe for your rifles or at least trigger locks.  Ammo must be stored in a diffrent part of the hosue/building and no weapon can be stored loaded.  You need to ahve a certificate showing you passed a test to buy a longarm which you only have to take once and is good for life.   Further testing to own a pistol and requires renewing on a regular basis. Pistols must be kept in purpose built gun cases for transport unless your are security or law enforcment and only opened at the range or for cleaning.  Concealing a pistol on your person is illigal for anyone but an undercover officer.

[Slappy]

I always find it so humorous people want to ban Assault rifles and such, even though no one ever uses them in crimes.

[Spiritbw]

I carry concealed legally.  I have a permit.

I always find it so humorous people want to ban Assault rifles and such, even though no one ever uses them in crimes.

Are you sure?  Can you quote from a reliable source?  I can actually think of one case where there was actually in the United States in California where a couple of men attmpted to hold up a bank then held of the police.  The trunk of thier car had been filled with assorted weapons including an M-16 and both had been wearing body armour.  it was some years ago but I think I could find it again.

[Slappy]

One case?  Oh no!

The funny thing is, if you actually knew anything about guns, gun laws, and crime statistics, you would already know assault weapons are used in hardly any crimes.  People need to start actually doing research and stop listening to bufoons like Michael Moore.

[Dark Exodus]

Slappy, it only takes one look at percentages of gun crimes in America compared to countries with stricter laws to show that everyone having guns is a bad idea, I believe it has become part of American culture now.

But yes Moore has a way of twisting the truth, which is better than the outright lies another certain most-powerfull-man-on-earth tells.

[Spiritbw]

One case?  Oh no!

The funny thing is, if you actually knew anything about guns, gun laws, and crime statistics, you would already know assault weapons are used in hardly any crimes.  People need to start actually doing research and stop listening to bufoons like Michael Moore.

Funny how you think right away I'm quoting Moore on this.  What?  First thought that has something to do other than the Far Right Agenda and I'm a follower of Moore. 

No, my views where shaped more by a stitistical review of the number of gun deaths and the strictness of the gun laws in Canada, the USA and Japan.  Funny, but despite having the highest population of the three Japan has less than 50 gun related deaths a year while the US has enough deaths in a month to wipe out my hometown (population 1,000) ten times over.  It's also interesting to note that Japan has some of the strictest gun laws in the world.  Only about 30 people are allowed to own handguns in the entire coutry at any one time.  Even then those must be kept at the local police station unless they are being taken to a shooting range and never taken out fot he case except at the shooting range.

It also isn't one case, but it was a famous one because it was one of the largest shootouts in modern times.  I didn't find the case yet but dug up a number of old SWAT files on various cases they had done, some involving assualt and machine guns.  I'll keep looking for that one and post the other cases later.

[-Makenshi-]

It also isn't one case, but it was a famous one because it was one of the largest shootouts in modern times.  I didn't find the case yet but dug up a number of old SWAT files on various cases they had done, some involving assualt and machine guns.  I'll keep looking for that one and post the other cases later.

i kno the one you are on about, they held up hundered of cops for hours and had body armour making the cops' bullets basically bounce off, and only by two guys, mind you they had to be killed in the end

[Scars]

New Zealand gun ownership levels are very right, as are Australias. However there are basically only hunting rifles and shotguns in both countries and both countries have incredibly low numbers of gun related deaths every year. Like it or not, you cannot deny that a certain 'gun culture' has developed in the States.

[Freshmaker]

God... What in the world would an average civilian need a gun for?  This really disappoints me....  I'm from Canada, and we have our fair share of losers, with guns and too much time on their hands.  But nothing compared to what we hear goes on south of the boarder.  I took a trip to Arizona last March, and I was driving around and noticed that every second sign had shotgun dents in them.  The matter kind of made me uneasy.  Every night, I saw 3 or 4 search helicopters fly by.  And in California, they have a channel on satellite TV that televises live police chases.  It’s funny because in America, if people are pissed off at one another, they go out and shoot each other, on the rare occasion, they will take it to Jerry Springer (and then shoot each other afterwards).  A few months ago, in Toronto, 2 Asian gangs were having a huge dispute, and how did they solve it?  Via Counter-Strike.  That's right, harmless internet games.  If only the world would realize that people have feelings.

Btw, American's are really nice people.  America is much more populated than Canada, so there is a bigger chance of a gun loving, I'll kill your mom, cat and dog, person being born.

[Slappy]

Well of course, you had to go to ARIZONA!  I think Phoenix has the highest violent crime rate in our country and the other cities aren't so shabby either.

As far as WHY I need a gun, it doesn't matter.  I want one, and that's my only reason.

I don't ever take anti-gun people seriously anyways unless they also advocate banning alcohol and other dangers to society outside of just guns.

[-Makenshi-]

As far as WHY I need a gun, it doesn't matter.  I want one, and that's my only reason.

...you are kidding, thats no excuse, youd say that about a toy, not a gun

also if im not mistaken isnt LA or a city in california the worst in gun crimes?

[Tegadil]

I have no problems with private gun ownership. Pistols and Rifles and Assault Weapons usually aren't necessities, but then again neither are little models

Provided the owner is competent (I know Michigan runs background checks and requires a liscence to own a gun) I don't have a problem with them having one. However, I don't want people who say 'If you try to search me I'll pull a gun on you' (or something along those lines, even jokingly) to ever hold a gun.

I'm not a fan of strict gun laws (California and their definitions of assault weapons comes to mind) but I do want strict restrictions for gun ownership.