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Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2016, 04:26:25 PM »
And if other Schengen countries flat out objected to the deal, that would be the end of it right? Or would it be another case of 'I hear what you're saying but we're doing it anyway' from the EU?

The deal was agreed by consensus in the Council of Ministers and by a vote in the European Parliament.  It would have been possible to vote on the issue in the Council of Ministers too, but they prefer to take decisions by consensus and avoid taking votes.

In theory, the deal could have been stopped if enough MEPs had voted against it, or enough member states had failed to back it via QMV (such a deal may even have come under the veto procedure, I'd have to check, in which case one member state could have stopped it).  The majority of MEPs backed the deal though, and the member states agreed to it through negotiating a consensus.

Ah, so a state within the EU must accept the bill even if it was dead set against it.  As opposed to one outside of the EU who wouldn't have to worry about it at all.

So much for having more influence on the inside. 

In view of my explanation above, how is what you've concluded correct?  No member state was dead set against it, so the point is moot.

The influence came from negotiating.  Cyprus didn't like some aspects of the deal, so by negotiating with the other EU member states managed to improve the deal to the satisfaction of its government, thus enabling agreement to be reached.  That's democracy in action.  It also demonstrates the influence that member states have within the EU.

It may not be the type of confrontational politics you're used to at Westminster, but European institutions do not operate in that way.  It is still, however, a democratic process.

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2016, 04:27:27 PM »
Tangi - You're not reading what I wrote. The influence on the inside is being part of the drafts and revisions. Same with the vote. Look at general elections, if 95% of the country votes one way and 5% are dead against it, what happens?

It gets even more extreme when it comes to expanding the EU as *every* single EU government has a veto as policy fields are closed.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2016, 06:01:56 PM »
Ok, fair points.  Although if the people of these countries don't like what's been done and vote in governments that want to undo the agreement that will be acceptable right?

And isn't it true that if Merkal's Germany didn't act unilaterally in the beginning we won't be in this mess in the first place right?  When is she going to be punished for ripping up the Dublin regulation?

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2016, 06:20:36 PM »
She did no such thing.

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Under the Dublin Regulation, a Member State may make use of the "sovereignty clause" to voluntarily assume responsibility for processing asylum applications for which it is not otherwise responsible under the criteria of the Regulation.

Where do you get your information?

There are means and process for countries to withdraw from treaties and agreements. However, the EU isn't an à la carte operation. You don't get to pick and choose what you like after you helped organise the pre fixe banquet. Which is why we have this Referendum to quit the whole meal deal and try and order something different later on.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 06:24:58 PM by The GrimSqueaker »
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Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2016, 06:23:08 PM »
Ok, fair points.  Although if the people of these countries don't like what's been done and vote in governments that want to undo the agreement that will be acceptable right?

By the time that's even a possibility, the agreement will have run its course.  It's a temporary deal.  Any new deal would have to agreed again.  As a result, changes of government could result in different outcomes, yes.

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And isn't it true that if Merkal's Germany didn't act unilaterally in the beginning we won't be in this mess in the first place right?  When is she going to be punished for ripping up the Dublin regulation?

As Rummy says, it's not true.  It's also worth noting that the number of refugees coming to the EU from a rather wide range of countries is not the result of German policy.

The Dublin regulation was suspended by Germany for Syrian refugees, so that they would not be returned to the EU country in which they first arrived to be processed..  It was not 'torn up'.  It still exists.  The problem is that it has had implementation problems for a number of years now in multiple member states, and is considered discriminatory in some cases.  It was always an imperfect system to regulate a very complex problem.

In addition, Hungary stopped applying the key element of the Dublin regulation requiring that applicants be processed in the first EU country in which they arrived before Germany adopted that policy.
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Offline Looshkin

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2016, 05:01:30 AM »
Ok. I've come to this party late. I will say from the off that I have only a passing interest in politics. I read around subjects that interest me, but in general, as I have no actual say, I don't get very invested. Of course, the EU referendum is one of those occasions when my voice carries a tiny amount of weight and, as such, I am trying to make a well informed decision.

A well informed decision you say? Pretty difficult when the campaigns put out have been so incredibly negative that they have regressed into scare mongering from both sides. Well, that's why we have sites like this, dedicated to painting and fighting with little plastic men, so that mugs like me can get receive balanced views that allow me to become well informed on socio-political topics...

In all seriousness, I am absolutely on the fence on this one. I was probably 60-40 Remain, until a very clever chap I know and respect had a chat with me at the weekend and pushed an interesting pamphlet my way that looks at the way the EU works and the UK's position within it. This has pushed me towards a proper 50-50 don't know what to think position. Hopefully, the well informed folks on here (Irisado, I'm looking at you), can clear up a few things for me. These are just things that have popped into my head, and have no real order to them.

1. Trade Agreements.

If we leave the EU, we will have to negotiate new trade agreements. The Remain campaign suggests this will be difficult, the Brexiteers suggest otherwise. In 2014, the UK exported £230 Billion in goods to the EU. We imported £289 Billion. Surely it would be more important for the EU to organise a trade deal that is of benefit to both, considering we are net importers of goods? Or am I being incredibly naive?

And if we leave, will we not be able to negotiate our own deals with other markets such as India and Australia? Areas which we trade with, yet the EU has been slow to negotiate with...

2. The Membership Fee.

Depending on who you listen to, we pay somewhere in the order of 17-23 Million per day to be a member of the EU (After rebates funding agriculture, regional investment, investment in EU backed projects and the like). That makes us a net contributor, along with Germany, which, as I understand it, makes us the only 2 of 26 EU contributors that give more than we take.

I know that we get a lot of stuff funded by the EU...but surely if we're giving out more than we get back, we could just redistribute our membership fee to all the avenues that are currently funded and still have money left over for politicians to fund Duck Houses and the like? I appreciate that there will be additional layers of bureaucratic bullamphetamine parrot that bleed away some of this money by setting up think tanks and other stuff to determine where the money will go...but not to the tune of 17-23 million surely??

3. Professional workers from the EU working in Britain.

If we leave...where do all the nurses come from? And doctors, and any other skilled job which we have had to outsource for a very long time? I'm not trying to be flippant here, but we have something to be very proud of in the NHS, and if we suddenly cut off the source of a lot of those professionals that help make it work, where will it be in the future?

4. UK influence within the EU.

 I read a statistic that "Since majority voting was introduced in the late 1980s, the UK has voted against an EU legislative proposal seventy times - and lost all seventy votes.". This would suggest that the UK has no real influence within the EU.

Furthermore, because the EU gets just 1 seat in the World Trade Organisation, the UK effectively gets just a small percentage of that representation. Which seems to me fairly counterintuitive for the 5th largest economy in the world...

5. The EU's view on its own rules.

Article 125 of the EU treaty expressly prohibits the bailing out financially of member states. Indeed, if my research is correct, it was one of the key points required by Germany before they agreed to the Euro.

And yet bailouts have occurred. If the EU is so willing on breaking their own rules...well, are any of the rules they have written sacrosanct, or are they able to tear them up whenever the mood allows?

Those are my starters. I know that the questions sound as though I'm a big Eurosceptic - I'm not. I believe that things such as working hours directives, workplace safety, et al are shining examples of good things that the EU has given us. That said, I doubt that we would just tear up all of the good that the EU has given us the second we leave...or at least, I would hope not!

I think my biggest problem with this referendum is that I am being asked to vote at all.

I fly planes for a living. I play sports. I'm a big fan of gaming - both video games and wargames. I've got a couple of cats, a wife and a child. Not one element of any of that makes me an expert on the EU and the UK's involvement within it. I've done a little bit of reading to make myself more aware, but I still seem to be wading through a sea of conflicting reports.

I've actually shown a modicum of interest though, which isn't necessarily true of all those being asked to vote on 23 June.

I fear that this referendum will be decided on, frankly, fairly trivial points - or at worst, totally misguided points:

"We need to get rid of the foreigners coming over and stealing our jobs" (Ah, Schrodinger's Immigrant. The one that simultaneously steals your jobs while claiming full job seekers allowance...

Will I have to pay more for my holiday to the South of France?

I don't want straight bananas.

Yup. One of the most important decisions that this generation will have to make may be influenced by the curvature of a banana...and that is fundamentally wrong. A decision of this import, of this magnitude, should be made by learned people that have studied all aspects (away from the grasping of lobbyists).

The fact that this decision has come down to a referendum smacks of nothing more than leadership by abdication.

Thank you for your time, sorry for the length!
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Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2016, 06:05:56 AM »
Ok. I've come to this party late. I will say from the off that I have only a passing interest in politics. I read around subjects that interest me, but in general, as I have no actual say, I don't get very invested. Of course, the EU referendum is one of those occasions when my voice carries a tiny amount of weight and, as such, I am trying to make a well informed decision.

First, it's great that you want to make an informed decision :).  Second, because the vote is expected to be close and is much more important than even any general election vote, your voice will carry a lot more weight than you might think.

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A well informed decision you say? Pretty difficult when the campaigns put out have been so incredibly negative that they have regressed into scare mongering from both sides.

The campaign hasn't been very good at all to be honest.  There are some places out there where you can find more informed and reliable information though.  The EU referendum reality check that the BBC has made is good, for example.

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1. Trade Agreements.

If we leave the EU, we will have to negotiate new trade agreements. The Remain campaign suggests this will be difficult, the Brexiteers suggest otherwise. In 2014, the UK exported £230 Billion in goods to the EU. We imported £289 Billion. Surely it would be more important for the EU to organise a trade deal that is of benefit to both, considering we are net importers of goods? Or am I being incredibly naive?

And if we leave, will we not be able to negotiate our own deals with other markets such as India and Australia? Areas which we trade with, yet the EU has been slow to negotiate with...

It is very difficult to negotiate trade deals.  For Leave campaigners to suggest that countries would be queuing up to negotiate with the UK in the event of a Brexit is misleading to say the least.

To take the two countries you've given as examples, they are both on the record as saying that they want us to stay in the EU, and that despite being Commonwealth countries, they would not treat the UK as a special case in the event of a Brexit.  The Commonwealth has moved on since the end of the British Empire and they want to do the best deals for them not the best deals for Britain.  That means negotiating with the largest trading blocs, which would not be an isolated UK.

There is also the question of TTIP.  The Americans are prioritising this deal with the EU, so in the event of a Brexit, the UK is going to lose out through not being a part of this.  There is also the concern that the worst neo-liberal aspects of this trade deal could be much worse for the UK if it were to negotiate its own bilateral deal along similar lines, and such a deal would take significant time to be completed too, owing to the US not prioritising it.

The numbers regarding the EU/UK exports and imports are correct, but even if the UK were to establish bilateral deals with every EU state, consider how much time this could take and how damaging this could be to UK exports.  The EU is the UK's highest recipient of exports (45%), so it would be a negative outcome for all sides if the UK were to leave the EU.

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2. The Membership Fee.

Depending on who you listen to, we pay somewhere in the order of 17-23 Million per day to be a member of the EU (After rebates funding agriculture, regional investment, investment in EU backed projects and the like). That makes us a net contributor, along with Germany, which, as I understand it, makes us the only 2 of 26 EU contributors that give more than we take.

I know that we get a lot of stuff funded by the EU...but surely if we're giving out more than we get back, we could just redistribute our membership fee to all the avenues that are currently funded and still have money left over for politicians to fund Duck Houses and the like? I appreciate that there will be additional layers of bureaucratic bullamphetamine parrot that bleed away some of this money by setting up think tanks and other stuff to determine where the money will go...but not to the tune of 17-23 million surely??

There are other countries which are net contributors too, notably France.

The only truly reliable figure about the UK's contribution to the EU budget (it's not really a membership fee) is £8.5 billion net per year.  That is actually a very small amount of money.  For example, the budget for the NHS in this country alone for 2015/16 is £116 billion (the King's Fund is the source for this).  The EU budget is smaller than that of government departments, and the idea that there's plenty of it to be spent on other areas isn't correct.

Also, there's a very good paper written by an excellent LSE professor on EU contributions here: http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Who-pays-for-the-EU-and-how-much-does-it-cost-the-UK-Disentangling-fact-from-fiction-in-the-EU-Budget-Professor-Iain-Begg.pdf.

It's very short and he explains it better than I can.

The EU ensures that the money it invests in this country is spent appropriately.  Without that oversight, the government of the day could spent the money however it wishes.  Would it really direct this into the areas which will lose out?  Higher education and farming (two sectors which would lose the most) have been poorly funded by successive governments for years.  There is no evidence that this is going to change.

A prominent leave campaigner, Conservative MP, chair of the Health Select Committee, and former GP Sarah Woollaston quit the leave campaign because Vote Leave were using the wrong figures and making false claims about how they could spend money from our contribution to the EU budget on the NHS.

Also, Brexit is in no position to say how it would spend money because it's not running the government, Cameron and Osborne are.

In essence, the amount of money put into the EU budget is small, in relative terms, and could not be used to plug all the gaps that leaving the EU would cause in the way that Brexit is suggesting.

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3. Professional workers from the EU working in Britain.

If we leave...where do all the nurses come from? And doctors, and any other skilled job which we have had to outsource for a very long time? I'm not trying to be flippant here, but we have something to be very proud of in the NHS, and if we suddenly cut off the source of a lot of those professionals that help make it work, where will it be in the future?

Quite.

There is a benefit to this country from economic migrants from within and outside the EU.  The NHS has been one of the sectors which had to recruit from within and outside the EU because there are not enough people in this country who wish to work in the NHS.

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4. UK influence within the EU.

 I read a statistic that "Since majority voting was introduced in the late 1980s, the UK has voted against an EU legislative proposal seventy times - and lost all seventy votes.". This would suggest that the UK has no real influence within the EU.

Furthermore, because the EU gets just 1 seat in the World Trade Organisation, the UK effectively gets just a small percentage of that representation. Which seems to me fairly counterintuitive for the 5th largest economy in the world...

Where has that statistic come from just out of interest?

The key point about EU decision-making is that discussing votes in the Council of Ministers is a flawed proposition because they rarely take them.  As I alluded to in a reply to Tangi above, their approach, in the vast majority of cases, is to reach a consensus without even taking a vote, even though they have the option to do so.

If you were to look at the sheer number of pieces of legislation, amendments, and all other matters which require 'a vote' on the different configurations of the Council of Ministers (there are different configurations for each policy area, e.g. one for finance, one for the environment, and so on, a bit like House of Commons Select Committees if you want a comparison to the UK system, but with much more power than House of Commons committees), even if the UK has lost seventy votes, it will have been on the 'winning side' of votes in thousands of cases.

The UK still has its own seat within the EU bloc on the WTO, so it's a bit of a red herring to go down that route, especially when you consider that one reason why the EU member states sit as one group is because the EU bloc has considerably more weight than a single EU member state.  You only need look up the whole US versus EU tariff issues which have been taken to the WTO on a number of issues over the years.

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5. The EU's view on its own rules.

Article 125 of the EU treaty expressly prohibits the bailing out financially of member states. Indeed, if my research is correct, it was one of the key points required by Germany before they agreed to the Euro.

And yet bailouts have occurred. If the EU is so willing on breaking their own rules...well, are any of the rules they have written sacrosanct, or are they able to tear them up whenever the mood allows?

Here is the clause 2 from article 125 of the Lisbon Treaty:

The Council, on a proposal from the Commission and after consulting the European Parliament, may, as required, specify definitions for the application of the prohibitions referred to in Articles 123 and 124 and in this Article.

This gives some freedom of manoeuvre when applying article 125, and it was this that was utilised to allow for bailouts.  A very interesting blog post discussing this and the ECJ's court ruling on the matter can be found here.

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That said, I doubt that we would just tear up all of the good that the EU has given us the second we leave...or at least, I would hope not!

My response to this is opinion based.  My view is that Boris Johnson, who has joined the leave camp solely to further his own interests by effectively setting himself up to challenge David Cameron for the leadership, would remove such regulations and protections without a second thought.  He is much more of a neo-liberal than the current Conservative government is, and he would not be interested in any state led protections for people at all.

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I think my biggest problem with this referendum is that I am being asked to vote at all.

Yes, I agree, and you are not alone with this view.  The referendum should not be happening at all, because the majority of people know too little about the EU to make an informed decision and either have insufficient time or insufficient will to learn enough about it to come to an informed position.

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I fear that this referendum will be decided on, frankly, fairly trivial points - or at worst, totally misguided points:

It could well be, and that's a very worrying prospect.

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I don't want straight bananas.

Yup. One of the most important decisions that this generation will have to make may be influenced by the curvature of a banana...and that is fundamentally wrong. A decision of this import, of this magnitude, should be made by learned people that have studied all aspects (away from the grasping of lobbyists).

A fun fact for you.  The EU directive on bananas never said that they should be straight or sold in bunches of three (which shows you the last time Boris Johnson went shopping for bananas :D).  Even better, it was repealed a number of years ago, so doesn't even exist any more.  The EU has been cutting back on unnecessary directives for some time now.  It's just that the leave campaign don't like to tell anyone that.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2016, 06:10:59 AM by Irisado »
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2016, 11:35:10 AM »
The 70 vote thing is from a Daniel Hannan (MEP) book called "Why Vote Leave." 

The number is surprising as since 1999 the UK has been outvoted 56 times while being on the winning ballot 2,466 times. I suspect a highly cherry picked process to get the 70 votes while completely ignoring the successes.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2016, 11:45:35 AM »
That explains it.  He is highly biased against the EU, so he will definitely have cherry picked and distorted the information to make it suit his argument, rather than to report the truth of how it actually works.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2016, 11:48:56 AM »
The book itself is available on Google Books if anyone wants to read it. I read the first chapter and it reads like a chain of consciousness rather than anything I found interesting.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2016, 12:05:27 PM »
1. Trade Agreements.

If we leave the EU, we will have to negotiate new trade agreements. The Remain campaign suggests this will be difficult, the Brexiteers suggest otherwise. In 2014, the UK exported £230 Billion in goods to the EU. We imported £289 Billion. Surely it would be more important for the EU to organise a trade deal that is of benefit to both, considering we are net importers of goods? Or am I being incredibly naive?

And if we leave, will we not be able to negotiate our own deals with other markets such as India and Australia? Areas which we trade with, yet the EU has been slow to negotiate with...

Exactly.  We buy more off of them.  We are a consumer, and they are the supplier.  It's in their interest to work with us.  If the EU wanted to spite us for leaving then they'll be cutting our their noses to do so.  And it's easier for countries to do deals one on one.  Trying to negotiate a one size fits all deal with 28 different countries with conflicting interests and demands is slow and time consuming. 

2. The Membership Fee.

Depending on who you listen to, we pay somewhere in the order of 17-23 Million per day to be a member of the EU (After rebates funding agriculture, regional investment, investment in EU backed projects and the like). That makes us a net contributor, along with Germany, which, as I understand it, makes us the only 2 of 26 EU contributors that give more than we take.

I know that we get a lot of stuff funded by the EU...but surely if we're giving out more than we get back, we could just redistribute our membership fee to all the avenues that are currently funded and still have money left over for politicians to fund Duck Houses and the like? I appreciate that there will be additional layers of bureaucratic bullamphetamine parrot that bleed away some of this money by setting up think tanks and other stuff to determine where the money will go...but not to the tune of 17-23 million surely??

Exactly.  Why give away x amount of money and receive y back (with y being smaller than x) when you can just keep x in the first place?

3. Professional workers from the EU working in Britain.

If we leave...where do all the nurses come from? And doctors, and any other skilled job which we have had to outsource for a very long time? I'm not trying to be flippant here, but we have something to be very proud of in the NHS, and if we suddenly cut off the source of a lot of those professionals that help make it work, where will it be in the future?

They can come from further afield, from places like India, Canada etc.  At present, our boarders are literally open to any European who feels like coming in, no questions asked, whilst everyone else has to apply for visas.  That's why criminals and beggars from EU countries end up here.  If we leave the EU and apply a fair entry system open to the entire world, it means that the best and brightest will still be allowed in whilst undesirables will be halted at the door.  It also means that we can ease the pressure when needed.  You can't do that whilst in the EU.

4. UK influence within the EU.

 I read a statistic that "Since majority voting was introduced in the late 1980s, the UK has voted against an EU legislative proposal seventy times - and lost all seventy votes.". This would suggest that the UK has no real influence within the EU.

Furthermore, because the EU gets just 1 seat in the World Trade Organisation, the UK effectively gets just a small percentage of that representation. Which seems to me fairly counterintuitive for the 5th largest economy in the world...

This says it better than I ever can:



5. The EU's view on its own rules.

Article 125 of the EU treaty expressly prohibits the bailing out financially of member states. Indeed, if my research is correct, it was one of the key points required by Germany before they agreed to the Euro.

And yet bailouts have occurred. If the EU is so willing on breaking their own rules...well, are any of the rules they have written sacrosanct, or are they able to tear them up whenever the mood allows?

That's one of the key reasons why I hate and fear the EU.  They will happily bin their own rules whenever it suits them.  You cannot trust them.  Of course, you can't trust national governments either but at least we can punish them at the ballot box.  You can't do that with the EU.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 01:02:51 PM by Captain Calamity »

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2016, 12:40:17 PM »
Exactly.  We buy more off of them.  We are a consumer, and they are the supplier.  It's in their interest to work with us. 

Looking at a total without understanding the size of the budget behind it is naive. The percentage of your exports to them is a lot higher than theirs to you. It's like saying if I stopped buying from Amazon they'd crumble. No, I'm a small fry compared to their gross revenue. Looks big to me, not to them. Same with the UK and EU. You'd have more luck if fuel prices were still high but they're not. The EU's GDP is about 20% lower than the US. Do you think the US could lose a state? Sure, it'd feel it but it could do it and move on. California has a GDP not much lower than the UK.

If forced to renegotiate trade deals the UK is in a position of weakness. It wants something the others don't have to give it. There will be concessions. You're not going to get the same deal handed back, as above, they don't really need you. If you've paid attention to what other non-EU countries went through, such as Switzerland, they ended up handing over concessions I am very sure you won't like. Such as the whole open borders thing. Other countries will be more than happy to fill the gaps while leaving the UK to wither on the vine.

Exactly.  Why give away x amount of money and receive y back (with y being smaller than x) when you can just keep x in the first place?

It's more Y+Z where Z are the advantages to the single market. All of the major economists have predicted significant revenue losses for the UK when it comes to leave. The only thing they don't agree on is how drastic. Even the most optimistic says austerity is here again. This is *all* of them, not just the usual hand wringers.


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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2016, 01:11:37 PM »
A Labour MP, Jo Cox, has died following a shooting and stabbing.  I think her attacker was motivated by the EU referendum.  My thoughts are with her family.

@ Grim

How would the EU cope with both the loss of Britain's membership fees (we're one of the few net contributors) and the loss of all that trade revenue? 

According to Donald Tusk, Brexit would destroy the western political world.  You can't have it both ways.  Either we're a small insignificant country who's departure won't matter at all to the EU, or we're a keystone to it's very survival.  Which is it?

And since those are the same economists who thought that the Euro was a good idea, that we would be doomed if we didn't join it, and didn't see the 2008 crash coming, I'm going to go ahead and ignore them.

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2016, 01:27:01 PM »
How would the EU cope with both the loss of Britain's membership fees (we're one of the few net contributors) and the loss of all that trade revenue? 

They're not going to lose the trade revenue, it'll go somewhere else. It's not a zero sum game. Same as the UK isn't suddenly going to go without the EU imports, they may just have to pay more from them or others. The loss of revenue will hurt but not mortally. Put it this way, if Scotland had left, was the UK doomed? Of course not.

Either we're a small insignificant country who's departure won't matter at all to the EU, or we're a keystone to it's very survival.  Which is it?

Neither. Also, Tusk is a hyperbolic blowhard scaremonger. Would you like me to start quoting Boris or Farage and demand you explain them?  :)

And since those are the same economists who thought that the Euro was a good idea, that we would be doomed if we didn't join it, and didn't see the 2008 crash coming, I'm going to go ahead and ignore them.

They're not the same people and you keep saying that.  Some did warn against both. This time it's *all* and not two sides arguing. Ignore it if you want but you can't pretend it's not there.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2016, 01:31:47 PM »
Exactly.  We buy more off of them.  We are a consumer, and they are the supplier.

That's not how the whole relationship between imports and exports works.  Just because we import more from them than we export to them does not make use a consumer.  The gap between imports and exports is also quite small.

Quote
And it's easier for countries to do deals one on one.

Evidence?

If it were easier, why was the common market formed?  Why was this converted into the single market?  If what you say is true, neither of these steps would ever have been taken.  Economic integration has been carried out in the EU to make trade easier and to give Europe global influence in world trade.

Quote
Trying to negotiate a one size fits all deal with 28 different countries with conflicting interests and demands is slow and time consuming.

Yet, negotiating trade deals with the EU has been far more difficult and time consuming for countries outside the EU, so how would Brexit make things easier?  The UK would have to create 28 separate trade deals, unless it were to adopt a Norwegian or Swiss model with the EU, both of which would involve keeping freedom of movement, which you seem so strongly opposed to.

The economic evidence supporting the claims you are making simply isn't there. 

Quote
Exactly.  Why give away x amount of money and receive y back (with y being smaller than x) when you can just keep x in the first place?

In addition to what Rummy has said, the money we receive from the EU is spent on specific areas in the UK which the national government does not or cannot allocate the necessary funding to.  Farming, higher education, and regional funding.  As I keep saying to you, yet you continually ignore, Northern Ireland is one of the most significant beneficiaries of EU funding.  Who would make up that shortfall in the event of Brexit?  How would you be financially better off in the event of Brexit?

Quote
They can come from further afield, from places like India, Canada etc.

Some already do, but it's not enough.  We need migrants from the EU and from outside it to fulfil the needs of the UK economy across multiple sectors.

Quote
At present, our boarders are literally open to any European who feels like coming in, no questions asked, whilst everyone else has to apply for visas.  That's why criminals and beggars from EU countries end up here.

People are checked Tangi.  When was the last time you took a flight out of the country?  I've stood at border control in British airports.  We have passport checks, unlike in the Schengen zone.  By being in the EU the UK has access to shared intelligence and information about people with convictions or who are on certain lists.  Some people may slip through, but that's the same of some British people going abroad, no system is ever going to catch anyone.

Your comment about beggars sounds like a line from a UKIP leaflet.  There's no evidence to support that.  Indeed, I have repeatedly quoted in this topic reliable sources to show that migrants from the EU have a positive impact on the UK's economy and do not put pressure on our public services.  The evidence refuting your points is, therefore, very strong.

Quote
If we leave the EU and apply a fair entry system open to the entire world, it means that the best and brightest will still be allowed in whilst undesirables will be halted at the door.  It also means that we can ease the pressure when needed.  You can't do that whilst in the EU.

There's nothing stopping the UK from changing its immigration policy to make it easier for, say for example migrants from Commonwealth countries, to have easier access to the UK.  Also, the statement 'brightest and the best' is misleading and sounds like an advert for a university admissions programme at Cambridge or Oxford.  The UK needs workers with all sorts of different skill sets to come here, and one size fits all labelling (which you earlier said you were opposed to ;)) isn't helpful to achieving that.

Quote
This says it better than I ever can:

Except that it doesn't reflect the reality of the situation at all.

Quote
That's one of the key reasons why I hate and fear the EU.  They will happily bin their own rules whenever it suits them.  You cannot trust them.  Of course, you can't trust national governments either but at least we can punish them at the ballot box.  You can't do that with the EU.

They didn't bin their own rule.  I'll borrow this from one of Rummy's replies above:

Under the Dublin Regulation, a Member State may make use of the "sovereignty clause" to voluntarily assume responsibility for processing asylum applications for which it is not otherwise responsible under the criteria of the Regulation.

You keep saying how much you want nation states to have more of the old style sovereignty, here's an example of this, and so I don't understand why you're complaining about it.

Your comment about not being able to change who takes decisions at the EU is factually incorrect.  By changing your national government, you change who acts at the EU in the Council of Ministers.  By voting in elections to the European Parliament, you can change the MEPs working there.  As a result, it is incorrect to claim that you cannot use the ballot box to make a difference.

Hate and fear achieve nothing in life, except to create more of the same.  Europe was full of both of those things during the two world wars, and the EU and its forerunners was something that was devised, in part, as a counter to them.  A peace project, bringing countries and nations of the continent together.  It stands for the hope, peace, and prosperity.  It's not something to be afraid of, but something to be a part of :).

A Labour MP, Jo Cox, has died following a shooting and stabbing.  I think her attacker was motivated by the EU referendum.  My thoughts are with her family.

It's very distressing news.  She was the kind of MP I admire and I can't imagine how much pain her friends and family are feeling.  I think that it would be prudent not to go around guessing what motives may or may not be involved at this stage.

Quote
According to Donald Tusk, Brexit would destroy the western political world.  You can't have it both ways.  Either we're a small insignificant country who's departure won't matter at all to the EU, or we're a keystone to it's very survival.  Which is it?

First, the headline is could destroy not would.  A very important difference ;).

Second, let's add a bit more context: Tusk and Juncker: Brexit could be 'end of West'

What Tusk is saying is that a UK departure could undermine the entire peace project which started in western Europe after World War II.  He is not commenting on whether the UK's economic or political influence, he is referring to the possible impact and the message it would send out.

Quote
And since those are the same economists who thought that the Euro was a good idea, that we would be doomed if we didn't join it, and didn't see the 2008 crash coming, I'm going to go ahead and ignore them.

Some of those economists didn't think the euro was a good idea.  The euro does not equal the EU.  There are actually quite a few pro-EU scholars, economists, and experts who do not think that the euro has worked.  It's possible to be critical of the euro, yet believe in the EU.

Also, some economists had raised concerns about the practices of banks long before the 2008 financial crash.  They don't make policy though.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 01:35:13 PM by Irisado »
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2016, 02:25:18 PM »
This is a lot to reply to.  Just a couple of things before I come back with a bigger answer:

I always thought that the idea of a common/single market was a good idea.  Of course it is.  I'd be fine with a common market.  My issue is, they've gone too far, and a market has now turned into a state. 

And I see the beggars on the street every time I go into the city centre, hanging around the cash machines, pleading for money.  A friend of mine gave one some food once.  He threw it away when he thought we weren't looking.  She lost all sympathy for them after that.

By the way, I know what you're all thinking about me at the moment.  I have no hatred in my heart for them.  I just think that we don't have enough of our own resources to look after all the poor of Europe.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 02:31:57 PM by Captain Calamity »

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2016, 02:30:32 PM »
And I see the beggars on the street every time I go into the city centre, hanging around the cash machines, pleading for money.  A friend of mine gave one some food once.  He threw it away when he thought we weren't looking.  She lost all sympathy for them after that.

Which has got what to do with the EU?
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2016, 02:32:53 PM »
Which has got what to do with the EU?

Since they're EU citizens we can't stop them from entering the country. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2016, 02:34:11 PM by Captain Calamity »

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2016, 02:36:09 PM »
How are you so *very* certain they're not UK citizens?
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2016, 02:37:50 PM »
They're Roma.

 


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