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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #20 on: May 3, 2016, 07:41:58 PM »
Very briefly, TTIP threatens the NHS, one of the cornerstones of our country.  That's the deal breaker for me.

How? Please go into more detail or link to it.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #21 on: May 3, 2016, 07:47:24 PM »
It's intention is to end state monopolies on heathcare.  This would leave the NHS vulnerable to being gutted by US companies.  This is just one of the problems with it though, as the article outlines.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #22 on: May 3, 2016, 07:59:49 PM »
I prefer this article as it doesn't have such a blatant click bait lead. A little more recent as well.
TTIP deal poses 'real and serious risk' to NHS, says leading QC | Business | The
Also this from last year: TTIP and the NHS - Full Fact

Ask yourself this, why would the EU do this to themselves, considering their vastly different approach to medical care than the US? No-one wants to duplicate that. Also look at the medical care in these countries. Why would they want to so significantly change them.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #23 on: May 4, 2016, 05:22:09 AM »
All I'm hearing is that we should stand just back and let the EU and the US dictate our policies, and pay for the privilege.  Despite being one of the most powerful countries in the world in economic and military terms.  I think it's sick that the US wants to foster on us, their best friends apparently, a political situation they would not except for themselves in a million years.  When I see a North American Union, with the USA giving up its sovereignty to Canada, Mexico, the Caribbean nations etc, then I'll take their advice to stay in the EU.

The United States is the most powerful country in the world, is a superpower, and is much larger than the UK geographically as well.  Taking all those factors together and you can see why it would never be part of the union in the same way as the UK is part of the EU.  In fact, the US is already a type of union, because it's made up of states remember.  As a result, trying to compare the UK with the US in terms of membership of a political union is like comparing apples with oranges, it just doesn't work.

Saying that the UK is one of the most powerful countries in the world might sound impressive on paper, but in reality it doesn't amount to much.  The United States and China are way ahead, and while the UK is fifth, it is barely ahead of other major players in the EU.  Take a look at the statistics to see the evidence: World Economic League Table 2015 | Centre for Economics and Business Research.  As you can see the UK is behind Germany, and only fractionally ahead of France and Italy.  The UK's economy is not strong enough to go it alone.  Indeed, opinion poll data shows that the economy is Brexit's weakest argument and the strongest argument for the Stronger In campaign.

In terms of military forces, spending on defence in the UK is falling and the size of the military is shrinking.  The UK learnt the hard way that it had lost any semblance of hard power during the Suez crisis.  Outside of NATO and the EU, the UK has no military power whatsoever and cannot take action alone.  The US, the UK's major partner on international security, wants the UK to remain in the EU to take the lead on security and defence issues there.

What you're claiming is, therefore, not supported by the evidence.

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And as for the EU itself, they're happy to take our money in contributions but they don't want to hear us out on anything.  We've been outvoted so many times.  They are certainly not our friends, as their threats to us demonstrate.  Being in the EU certainly doesn't stop Spain harassing the UK over Gibraltar for example.  When the EU tells Spain to back off once and for all over the Rock then I'll believe that they're our friends.

My research area is Spain, including Anglo-Spanish relations, so I can assure you that the Spain does not 'harass the UK' about Gibraltar ;).  Having interviewed various former ambassadors from this country to Spain, it's true that Gibraltar represents a stumbling block at times in the relationship, but the leadership of Gibraltar often brings this on themselves by refusing to compromise over many issues when the UK government tries to make a deal with Spain.  Spain does want Gibraltar back, and sometimes does play games regarding the border, but, for the most part, relations are cordial, even if they are not warm, thanks to the EU acting as a constraint on Spain.

Also, the whole issue of Gibraltar isn't really an EU matter to resolve.  It's a bilateral issue between Spain and the UK, so trying to somehow say that this is all the EU's responsibility does not accurate represent the reality of the situation.

For more information, take a look at this: What does Gibraltar think about Brexit? - BBC News.  Gibraltar wants the UK to remain in the EU as it's so strongly integrated with the continent.

As for being outvoted, that's democracy for you.  What's the problem with that?  Are you going to argue that every time a vote does not go the way in which you want at Westminster or the Northern Ireland assembly that this is wrong too?

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And they are certainly not interested in meaningful reforms.  Like I said before, Cameron went begging to them for scraps and to be perfectly honest, they pissed in his face.  The evil Blair threw away most of our rebate in exchange for a vague promise of reform for the CAP which is yet to happen.  And the chance to be a big highly paid player in the EU hierarchy no doubt.  We're outvoted the most in the decision making despite all the money we fork over.  And it's still not enough because they're always asking for more.  Why the hell are we paying for this abuse?

What's your evidence for claiming that the EU is not interested in meaningful reform?  What is meaningful reform anyway?  It's a very subjective term.

He didn't go begging, but yes they were annoyed with him trying to get a deal at a time when the EU faced, and still faces, much bigger issues than the UK.  The distraction of sorting out that deal when the euro and immigration issues needed to be the focus of attention was, understandably, very frustrating for other EU leaders, but they still sat down and negotiated for hours, including over night.  That says a lot about the strengths of the EU, and the fact that while they might find the behaviour of the UK frustrating, they want us to stay.

Blair did not throw away most of the UK's rebate.  The UK still receive £5 billion rebate every year, and do you know who pays for that?  The other EU member states.

CAP needs to be reformed, and many member states agree with the UK on this.  The major problem there is France, which keeps blocking CAP reform, but small steps have been made over time.  The only way to keep making progress on this is to remain in the EU and fight for change.  The NFU in this country backs remaining in the EU, because without EU subsidies the UK farming industry would be in serious trouble.

Are you arguing that money should buy votes?  That would be more than a little corrupt don't you think ;)?

In terms of contributions, Germany is, by far, the largest contributor to the EU, and, depending on which statistics you look at, France pays more than the UK does too.  As the fifth largest economy though, it is right that the UK is in the top three contributors to the EU.

The EU budget has been getting smaller every year for the last few years, thanks to the UK leading the agenda on cutting the EU budget.  That rather flies in the face of the claim that the UK is never listened to.  In addition, what the Commission asks for in terms of a budget has to be agreed by the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament, and this also often ends up reducing the size of the EU budget.

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I also think the EU is a bloated monstrosity of an organization.  Justify to me the need to move the parliament from Brussels to Strasbourg every month.  Why?

You might think that, but it's factually incorrect.  The EU's bureaucracy (civil service) is smaller than that of one UK government department.  The only reason you think it's big is because certain media sources portray it that way to suit their own ends.  It's a very lean organisation in lots of ways, so don't let the media fool you :).

The MEPs would rather that they didn't move from Brussels to Strasbourg, and it would make much more sense to stay in Brussels.  The reason why they moe comes down to French prestige and history.  Again, the only way to sort this out is to keep pressing for reform, not to pull up the drawbridge.

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I'm voting to leave.  Things will be tough if we do, but it'll be worth it in the end.  The EU won't survive without us.  They need us far more than we need them.  Who else will pay the bills?  Plus, the eventual goal of the EU is to fully assimilate its members in their entirety.  Ever closer union after all.  And I don't want that.  Since they won't take no as an answer in regards to this, it's time to leave.

The EU would survive without the UK.

The EU budget is far more complex that you are claiming and to imply that the UK pays all the bills is completely inaccurate and not supported at all by the facts.

The EU is not the Borg from Star Trek ;).  Ever closer union does not mean assimilation.

Very briefly, TTIP threatens the NHS, one of the cornerstones of our country.  That's the deal breaker for me.

See the Full Fact link that Rummy gave you.  It's very good and highlights just how much uncertainty you would be basing this decision on.  Negotiations are ongoing, nothing has been set in stone, and the only way to influence the outcome is to stay at the negotiating table and to be involved.  The alternative, as I have discussed in previous posts with you is even more privatisation via a lengthy and delayed deal with the US, or national government will privatise the NHS in some areas itself, both Labour and the Conservatives have already done so, in fact.  On that basis, I would argue that the NHS is no safer left in the hands of national government.

The evidence presented shows that all the reasons you are arguing to leave the EU are not supported by the facts or by the majority of the evidence.  I really find it very difficult to understand how you can take a decision to leave when the points you're making are not representative of the reality of the situations.  In a referendum of such immense significance, decisions must be taken by the head (i.e. fact and evidence based), not the heart (emotion based).
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #25 on: May 8, 2016, 08:00:07 PM »
Today six Algerian terrorists (one who personally murdered a cop 13 years ago) won the right to stay in the UK because deporting them would violate their human rights.  So now we have to let them stay here and plot God knows what against us whilst spending a fortune housing them in prison or keeping them under surveillance.

Things like this are another reason why I'm voting to leave.  If we didn't have the human rights act chaining us to the European Court Of Human Rights, we could kick them out of the country pronto and be safe from them forever.  Hell, if I had my way, the murderer would have been hung by the neck until dead and thus he wouldn't pose a threat to anyone anymore, so there would be no need to deport him.

But whilst we're in the EU we have to be in the ECHR as well, and accept these bullamphetamine parrot decisions.  We can't leave the later whilst we're in the former.  So I want to get out of the EU so that we can get out of the ECHR as well.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #26 on: May 8, 2016, 08:44:28 PM »
Welcome to the Rule of Law. Just because you don't like someone doesn't remove certain protections that *everyone* is supposed to have, In this case, you shouldn't deport people to places where they're going to get tortured. The Human Rights Act is a good thing. It should protect everyone, including people you don't like. The Special Immigration Appeals Commission is a high court of the UK. They made the decision. After ten years of back and forth. Also, the decision came weeks ago.

Since you didn't link to anything I presume you mean these guys.Money quote:
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None of the men have ever been convicted of terror offences in the UK.

Please stop blaming the EU for *every* single thing that vexes you.  ::)
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #27 on: May 8, 2016, 10:26:43 PM »
Yes, the Human Rights Act is a good thing.  It's a good thing for terrorists, murders, rapists and human rights lawyers.  All stand to gain a lot from it.

And since the EU is behind a lot of things that vex me, of course I'm going to blame it.  :P

And I do get vexed when I'm told repeatedly by the remain camp that the UK is too small, too weak and too pathetic to go it alone.  It only strengthens my resolve to vote to leave, to prove those who call this country weak wrong.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #28 on: May 8, 2016, 10:42:27 PM »
Listen to what you're saying. Really. Mate, you're really strawmanning hard these days.

And I do get vexed when I'm told repeatedly by the remain camp that the UK is too small, too weak and too pathetic to go it alone.  It only strengthens my resolve to vote to leave, to prove those who call this country weak wrong.

Nope. The idea is that the UK is better in the EU, not that it can't survive without it. Same as the EU could survive without the UK but is better with it as well.

Your vote is yours to decide. You don't need to justify it. Yet, please pick better arguments than the ones we've shown to be false. When you vote for exit then that's all good as it's your decision. Don't try and lipstick the pig with illusions.

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Offline Irisado

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #29 on: May 9, 2016, 05:42:16 AM »
Today six Algerian terrorists (one who personally murdered a cop 13 years ago) won the right to stay in the UK because deporting them would violate their human rights.  So now we have to let them stay here and plot God knows what against us whilst spending a fortune housing them in prison or keeping them under surveillance.

They're being monitored by the authorities under highly controlled bail conditions.  They're not going to be able to do anything.  Also, they have not been convicted, so it's important to get the facts right.  This story only makes the headlines on a Google search in three papers, The Telegraph, the Daily Mail, and the Sun.  That should tell you something Tangi ;).

As for the costs of keeping people in prison, consider how many UK citizens are held in jails and compare that to the number of non-UK nationals and you'll soon find out where all the money goes, and it's not on foreign criminals.

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Things like this are another reason why I'm voting to leave.  If we didn't have the human rights act chaining us to the European Court Of Human Rights, we could kick them out of the country pronto and be safe from them forever.  Hell, if I had my way, the murderer would have been hung by the neck until dead and thus he wouldn't pose a threat to anyone anymore, so there would be no need to deport him.

The Humans Rights Act is not EU legislation.  Leaving the EU will not take us out of the Convention of European Rights.  Your argument just is illogical on that basis.

This eye for an eye thing you have doesn't work.  As someone who lives in Northern Ireland, you've seen how that approach failed to achieve anything for all the paramilitaries for decades.  It was a never ending cycle of killing.  In addition, the democracies of the West are, supposedly, meant to have a higher standard of justice than the rest of the world.  If the UK returned to the bad old days of capital punishment or endorsing vigilantes, how would we be setting any sort of example to other nations?  Such an approach belongs in the Dark Ages, so let it stay there.

This wasn't an EU decision either.  Yes, the decision was taken with respect to the UK's EU membership and the Convention on Human Rights, but it was taken within the UK as Rummy highlighted.  Furthermore, if you don't like what's in the European Convention on Human Rights, why not lobby your MP to get it changed?  British MPs sit on the Council of Europe.  If you feel that strongly about something, why not try arguing for change, rather than just arguing that the UK should withdraw?

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But whilst we're in the EU we have to be in the ECHR as well, and accept these bullamphetamine parrot decisions.  We can't leave the later whilst we're in the former.  So I want to get out of the EU so that we can get out of the ECHR as well.

So, you want the UK to leave the Council of Europe too?  The Council of Europe, which has nothing to do with the EU, is the intergovernmental body connected to the ECHR.

Isolationism doesn't work.  The UK can only make positive contributions through constructive active engagement.  This has been the policy ever since the end of the British Empire, and it has worked very well.

Yes, the Human Rights Act is a good thing.  It's a good thing for terrorists, murders, rapists and human rights lawyers.  All stand to gain a lot from it.

And since the EU is behind a lot of things that vex me, of course I'm going to blame it.  :P

And I do get vexed when I'm told repeatedly by the remain camp that the UK is too small, too weak and too pathetic to go it alone.  It only strengthens my resolve to vote to leave, to prove those who call this country weak wrong.

The Human Rights Act is a very good thing, because it stops UK governments from behaving like those governments they criticise for human rights abuses.  If these men were sent back with the full knowledge that they would be mistreated, that would reflect extremely negatively on the UK.  In order to reproach other countries for human rights abuses, these rights have to be upheld.  That's what the Convention is for.

The EU does very little to you.  What you do not like is the decisions that national governments come to at the EU.  That's different.  I strongly encourage you to be more specific when you're discussing these issues.

Could you link me to a source where anyone in the Remain camp has said that the UK is pathetic?  I haven't heard that word being used.  Also, you're distorting the rest of the argument.  Nobody has said that the UK cannot go it alone, because it's not an impossibility.  What people have said is that the UK will lose economic clout, influence, and prestige to name but three and will be weaker on the world stage as a result.  That is not the same thing as what you're claiming.

By voting to leave, you won't prove anyone wrong on this subject, because no matter how much you try, people who wanted to remain are never going to be convinced by that argument.

As you keep mentioning all the supposed terrible things that the EU does to us, I'm going to write a short list of the things that we have got out of the EU, aside from the well documented economic benefits, for the benefit of those reading this.  These benefits include:

  • Reduced roaming charges (soon to be scrapped)
  • Low cost air travel
  • Improved rights for workers, including rights to annual leave, rights for agency and part-time workers, anti-discrimination legislation, paternity, maternity, an parental leave, and fixed-term worker rights.
  • EHIC card - free basic healthcare in any EU state.
  • Cheaper and more easily arrangeable insurance when going abroad.
  • The right for UK citizens to work in any EU member state.
  • Research funding for UK universities (UK universities receive the largest amount of EU funding of all EU countries)
  • Enhanced environmental regulations, such as cleaner air, beaches, and water.
  • Consumer rights.

These are just some of the benefits the UK has obtained from its EU membership.  Leaving puts of all these in jeopardy, with no guarantees at all about anything of them remaining in place of being renegotiated.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2016, 07:13:45 PM »
A couple of weeks out now and I was *greatly* amused to see people complain that extending the voter registration period was seen as undemocratic. Indeed, how dare they want more people to be able to vote. It's just not cricket.

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2016, 05:53:56 AM »
It's mostly leave campaigners who have complained about this, since the majority of those affected by the server crash in the hours leading up to the deadline were younger people, who are more likely to vote remain.

The whole debate about immigration has become very toxic now, and it's this above anything else that's really disturbing.  Some of the politicians backing leave are starting to sound like Trump with some of the things they have been saying, notably Farage and Boris Johnson, while the unofficial leave group had to delete a very offensive remark regarding remaining in the EU leading to an Orlando style attack in the UK.

While the remain group has been exaggerating some of the possible economic crises in the event of a Brexit, they are trying to stick to more pragmatic arguments where possible.  The trouble is the internal war in the Conservative Party, combined with this extremely unpleasant diatribe about immigration from Vote Leave, is drowning out sensible debate at the moment.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2016, 01:07:28 PM »
Yes, I saw that advert. Blaming open borders kind of misses the point when the culprit was actually born in the country. Don't worry, Trump got that one wrong as well.  ::)

I thought the UK got an opt-out from open borders?
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2016, 01:10:17 PM »
It does have an opt out from Schengen.  The spurious claim being made by Vote Leave that Turks will come here in their millions is entirely wrong because of this.  The deal which Germany forged with Turkey allowing a limited period of visa free travel to the EU only applies to Schengen countries.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2016, 01:41:30 PM »
That's what I thought. As it appears that other countries, like Switzerland, that wanted access to the single market had to opt-in as part of the deal. Not exactly what the Leave people would call a win/win.
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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2016, 03:12:13 PM »
It does have an opt out from Schengen.  The spurious claim being made by Vote Leave that Turks will come here in their millions is entirely wrong because of this.  The deal which Germany forged with Turkey allowing a limited period of visa free travel to the EU only applies to Schengen countries.

Do the other Schengen countries get a say in that matter or is Germany calling all the shots?

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2016, 03:27:14 PM »
Other countries have had a say as have the European institutions.  The Commission is responsible for ensuring that Turkey complies with the deal, while the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament had to vote on it.  Alterations were made, following objections raised by Cyprus, so while it was a German led initiative, it still had to follow proper decision-making procedures.
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Offline Calamity

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2016, 03:55:09 PM »
And if other Schengen countries flat out objected to the deal, that would be the end of it right? Or would it be another case of 'I hear what you're saying but we're doing it anyway' from the EU?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2016, 03:56:19 PM by Captain Calamity »

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2016, 04:02:38 PM »
Think of it like the US. Representatives of the states draft a bill and debate its contents. Amendments and revisions are made as issues are bought up. Once the final draft has been completed a vote is taken and, if it passes, then the law/act applies to everyone.

If 49 state's worth of representatives agree and 1 does not, the law/act still applies.
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Offline Calamity

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Re: The UK's EU Referendum
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2016, 04:14:04 PM »
Ah, so a state within the EU must accept the bill even if it was dead set against it.  As opposed to one outside of the EU who wouldn't have to worry about it at all.

So much for having more influence on the inside. 

 


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