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Author Topic: Mechs, they just don't work.  (Read 8179 times)

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2016, 09:42:16 AM »
I don't particularly like the Stormsurge as a model and I wish it weren't a Gargantuan Creature, but it doesn't bother me in general. Nothing in 40K makes a hell of a lot of sense, anyway, so the Tau being the only "sensible" ones seems foolish. I mean, clearly this is a universe where, despite all reason, there is good tactical reasons to put a sword on a walking apartment building loaded with guns. Why shouldn't the Tau make one that has missile arms?

The Rule of Cool is the master of the 40K universe and always has been. If it's cool, then it's fine. Giant mechs are cool and, furthermore, are very Mecha/Anime (which is part of the Tau's whole design style anyway). If anybody should get a giant mech, it's them.

Offline khaine

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2016, 10:46:35 AM »
Giant mechs are cool and, furthermore, are very Mecha/Anime (which is part of the Tau's whole design style anyway). If anybody should get a giant mech, it's them.

Oddly part of GWs original Tau concept idea was that they did not use giant Mechs like most of the other races and that their counter to other races Super Heavy Walkers was their aircraft. That concept slowly changed as the fluff based rumours of a bigger battlesuit evolved into the Riptide (Who says GW never advances story line?), then the Stormsurge and Ta'Unar.

Personally I think I liked the idea that Tau didn't use big Mechs to counter big Mechs but rather side stepped the issue and countered brute power with speed and mobility.

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2016, 11:07:10 AM »
Giant mechs are cool and, furthermore, are very Mecha/Anime (which is part of the Tau's whole design style anyway). If anybody should get a giant mech, it's them.

Oddly part of GWs original Tau concept idea was that they did not use giant Mechs like most of the other races and that their counter to other races Super Heavy Walkers was their aircraft. That concept slowly changed as the fluff based rumours of a bigger battlesuit evolved into the Riptide (Who says GW never advances story line?), then the Stormsurge and Ta'Unar.

Yes, yes--I know all this. That doesn't change the fact that the design style is very Manga and giant robot suits are all part of that aesthetic. It doesn't really matter what the original fluff said. Orks used to ride cybernetic boars with fart-rocket power, that doesn't mean it should still be the case.

The whole fluff explanation that they "didn't need giant mechs" was, frankly, inconsistent with what the rest of the 40K universe seemed to know about giant mechs (which was that they, despite all sense, were amazeballs). And in terms of gameplay, the Tau couldn't compete with superheavies with only Hammerheads and the Tau's amphetamine parrotty, amphetamine parrotty flyers anyway. How many Tiger Sharks have ever graced the battlefield, anyway? How good would they be in any practical contest?   

I agree mechs are totally unrealistic, I agree it's a violation of the Tau's preexisting fluff, but it is entirely in keeping with the 40K universe in general and the Tau design aesthetics in particular.

Offline khaine

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2016, 11:59:10 AM »
As I said, it was odd that GW went with that line to start although tactical movement was a big thing for Tau and rapidly moving giant Mechs is a pita... Unless they transform into a giant jet...

Still the little blue guys figured it out in the end, which is very fitting for the only race in 40k that shows any kind of development.

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2016, 12:03:17 PM »
built some super impressive submarines with decent sonar (since the guys in the mechs had to try and look around in the murky water to see the beasts) and just torpedo the crap out of them....

You don't even need submarines. Surface ships with big beslubber off torpedoes would work just as well and be easier to maintain and supply. Mine the beslubber out of the seabed and lower areas just to make sure you're not missing anyone along the way.

To further the story along you then make the appearance point random rather than at a set location thus forcing the defenders back to reaction forces and/or a siege mentality. Which brings us back to aircraft designed to engage while they're still in the water or at emergence.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2016, 12:07:00 PM »
That's true (though everybody's gone through a bit of modification over the years)!

I'd argue the Tau can still be about tactical movement and probably should most of the time.

And anyway, we're here to talk about giant mechs/robots!

Part of the reason why Titans and so on don't bother me in 40K is that 40K does not and never has pretended to be actual science fiction. It's science fantasy, and everything is on the table. I can totally accept rivets on tanks, "gauss" flayers, bright yellow power armor, psykers and so on because nothing about this world is portrayed realistically at all.

It's when you get stories which are trying to be "real" or are set in the ostensibly real world that I start to roll my eyes. More often, it's fans of these things trying to argue that mechs are the future that makes me annoyed. No, they totally aren't. Stop wishing for something that stupid to be real.


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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2016, 01:43:06 PM »
Mechs as we know them, or walking warmachines towering several stories high, may not be the future, but I could see power armour being possible.  A machine to enhance strength, endurance, carrying capacity, while also offering superior protection to the infantryman.  The cost would be astronomical, and the suits would be limited to the most elite units.

Now, I am not talking Power Armour as we see for Space Marines, but more like the Marauder suits that are described in Starship Troopers.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2016, 01:51:51 PM »
That's somewhat how the John Ringo suits were described. Slightly larger than human but not giants. They came in grunt, command, and heavy weapons variety (modular to be outfitted for the mission role). Other SFF books include scout (lighter, more covert, not as much protection) and support suits (medical, engineer). The bigger/heavier you are the fewer environments you're able to work within and the harder you are to transport.
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Offline khaine

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2016, 02:10:19 PM »
Ah exo-skeletons:

Worth a watch.

Thing is that by the time they get Numbers 10-2 working in a kind of Power Armour/IronMan kind of way the number 1 slot will have made them all redundant.

But Mechs on a small scale (Say small enough to fit in an average building) do provide a function that nothing else really fills, the ability to carry heavy protection (Be it body armour, radiation suit or enviromental) and equipment that a normal human could not lift is a huge advantage for a wide number of aplications.

But by the time you get to a Mech the size of a tank you're probably better off just having a tank.

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You can't see the eyes of the demon until him come calling.

This is dread man, truly dread.


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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2016, 03:31:33 PM »
Yes, agreed. I think the suit at the end of District 9 is a pretty good example of what might one day be practical/possible. If not the precise weapons systems, then simply the scale and tactical application.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2016, 03:35:28 PM »
Of course, hover tanks have their own mess of issues. 40K tries to ascribe some form of anti-grav, same as titans, to explain how they function. Tau anti-grav just not being so good requires the rotating drive fans to get the peddle to the metal.

Hammers Slammers used fusion powered drive fans and pneumatic skirts, IIRC, which lends itself to all manner of sucking your teeth as well.
Icarus Industries M2 "Ursa" Hover Tanks (Hammer's Slammers)

Renegade Legion had a version of anti-grav as well which played on a force effect relative to mass proximity (works better closer to the ground) and angle of attack. So they could do low orbital drops with their tanks but you had bugger all control till you got a lot closer to the surface and could angle out.
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Offline Slick Samos

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2016, 05:25:25 PM »
Those real life exo suits are cool.  I believe that the fabric one is essentially an energy conservation one which is fairly sweet.  Anyway here is your classic Top 10 list from pop culture.

Play more games, paint more models...

Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2016, 10:46:10 AM »
built some super impressive submarines with decent sonar (since the guys in the mechs had to try and look around in the murky water to see the beasts) and just torpedo the crap out of them....

You don't even need submarines. Surface ships with big beslubber off torpedoes would work just as well and be easier to maintain and supply. Mine the beslubber out of the seabed and lower areas just to make sure you're not missing anyone along the way.

To further the story along you then make the appearance point random rather than at a set location thus forcing the defenders back to reaction forces and/or a siege mentality. Which brings us back to aircraft designed to engage while they're still in the water or at emergence.

At which point it is of course no longer a movie about giant monsters fighting giant robots. :P

Honestly, despite its stupidness, I enjoyed the movie.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2016, 12:43:57 PM »
I basically agree--it made no sense, but the fights were fun. Which is kinda the whole reason mechs are a thing--they're fun.

As for grav tanks, at *least* there's some reason you'd want a flying/hovering tank. Though how it's precisely different than an up-armored helicopter can be a bit unclear. I guess the altitude at which they're suited to operate.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2016, 03:39:45 PM by Wyddr »

Offline khaine

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #34 on: April 16, 2016, 12:59:22 PM »
Everything wrong with

Errrr...

A few of the things wrong with Pac-Rim.


Everything Wrong With Pacific Rim In 9 Minutes Or Less - YouTube


But I still can't wait for the sequel.  ;D

  There's no stopping what can't be stopped, no killing what can't be killed

You can't see the eyes of the demon until him come calling.

This is dread man, truly dread.


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Offline TagniK'ZuR

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2016, 03:30:03 AM »
You don't even need submarines. Surface ships with big beslubber off torpedoes would work just as well and be easier to maintain and supply. Mine the beslubber out of the seabed and lower areas just to make sure you're not missing anyone along the way.

To further the story along you then make the appearance point random rather than at a set location thus forcing the defenders back to reaction forces and/or a siege mentality. Which brings us back to aircraft designed to engage while they're still in the water or at emergence.
So, ship with torpedo's and mines for the trench, torpedo bombers for anywhere else. Humans win again, movie wrapped up in 5min.

It's when you get stories which are trying to be "real" or are set in the ostensibly real world that I start to roll my eyes. More often, it's fans of these things trying to argue that mechs are the future that makes me annoyed. No, they totally aren't. Stop wishing for something that stupid to be real.
I agree with this. I'm perfectly happy with vampires/witches/trolls/etc in movies, "because magic" But don't try and tell me a zombie apocalypse is plausible because of some fungi and a smattering of pseudo-science.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2016, 06:26:10 AM »
Oh, God! Don't even get me started on zombie apocalypse stories! Those drive me nuts!

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2016, 02:13:02 PM »
I don't mind a good zombie apocalypse story. As long as the author isn't trying *too* hard to explain everything as then they almost immediately kill the moment.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Mechs, they just don't work.
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2016, 03:50:00 PM »
I would love a zombiepocalypse to take place in a world where people have beslubbering seen zombie movies!!!

"Hmmm... this guy has open wounds, a shambling gait, and is eating people.  Maybe he is just sick?  I should go help him or try to talk to him."

No.  He's a beslubbering zombie and you need to put a bullet through his rotting brain.
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