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Author Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!  (Read 83113 times)

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #40 on: July 1, 2003, 11:16:39 AM »
Why would I?  I want this too work as much as you do, which I assume is a large amount... ;)

I'm off to word to make my list, cya later!!

Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #41 on: July 1, 2003, 12:38:27 PM »
I played a 1500 point game against Slaanesh.  The Slaaneshi list was really bad, but I have proved something: Against any Daemon-oriented army, move forward as fast as possible.  Take advantage of your number advantage early!

Anyway, I played this list:
Harlequin Army list

HQ:
Shadowseer
Psychic Powers: Veil of Tears, Impetuousness of Youth
Familiars: 4
Wargear: D-Field, Dread Mask, Powerblades
Weapons: Harlequin’s Kiss, Shuriken Pistol
216 points

Great Harlequin
Masque: Red Death
Wargear: Dread Mask, D-Field, Tanglefoot Grenades, Powerblades
Weapons: Harlequin’s Kiss, Shuriken Pistol
165 points

Elites:

Solitaire
Wargear: D-Field, Tanglefoot Grenades, Dread Mask, Powerblades
Weapons: Harlequin’s Kiss, Shuriken Pistol
165 points

Troops:

3X:
5 Harlequins
CC Weapons: 1 Harlequin’s Kiss, 1 Power Weapon
Pistol Weapons: 2 Plasma Pistols
Troupe Leader
   Wargear: Powerblades, Tanglefoot Grenades, Dread Mask
   Weapons: Harlequin’s Kiss, Shuriken Pistol
Venom
   Holo-Field, Fusion Gun
317 points

1497 points

The only things I lost were 3 Harlequins and the Venoms (Defiler Reaper Autocannon is great against AV 10)

The Slaaneshi played:
10 Chosen w/ Bolt of Change, Lord too
Defiler w/ Indirect
27 Horrors

The Horrors got no chance to shoot, I was too fast.

Regarding playtesting:
The Shadowseer power Impetuousness of Youth is WAY too good.  I mean, my Solitaire could go 38" a turn.  This either needs to be toned down or raised in point cost.

You have very little incentive to use Mask of the Red Death.  You should be able to kill them easily in two phases if you have good wargear, etc.  Therefore, it doesn't really help that much.  It is only good with DJs if they get in combat, but then again they should be separated and one DJ dying shouldn't really affect you.

Familiars are quite good.  I believe that the Benthai however should give something like this:

1st:+1 WS
2nd: +1 WS, +1 A
3rd: +1 WS, +1 A, +1 S

Initiative isn't that good for a Shadowseer but S/A/WS are.

I hope this helped, Rasmus!

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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #42 on: July 1, 2003, 02:11:23 PM »
Quote
Regarding playtesting:
The Shadowseer power Impetuousness of Youth is WAY too good.  I mean, my Solitaire could go 38" a turn.  This either needs to be toned down or raised in point cost.
Actually, it is just the wording that is bad on this one. My apologised. it is supposed to only affect Harlequin Troupes or Mime Troupes. Initial playtesting showed the same thing you have found, it was just never altered for some reason.

Quote
You have very little incentive to use Mask of the Red Death.  You should be able to kill them easily in two phases if you have good wargear, etc.  Therefore, it doesn't really help that much.  It is only good with DJs if they get in combat, but then again they should be separated and one DJ dying shouldn't really affect you.
I have found it working well when i use a Harlequin troupe and a Mime troupe. The Mimes charge in, those who remain withdraw, and the Harlequins advance in. +1A is a beautiful thing.

Quote
Familiars are quite good.  I believe that the Benthai however should give something like this:

1st:+1 WS
2nd: +1 WS, +1 A
3rd: +1 WS, +1 A, +1 S

Initiative isn't that good for a Shadowseer but S/A/WS are.
How would you think this owuld affect the cost? Raising WS, and first as well, would mean a hefty increase. I doubt it would be worth it, with the holosuit and all.


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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #43 on: July 1, 2003, 03:32:08 PM »
Only +5 point maybe.  Rasmus the real problem is that you don't need that +one initiative.  Therefore, there really is no need to take a single familiar.  I think they should have a better bonus to make them useful.

Regarding Impetuousness of Youth--Its still very good, but not overpowered, good choice to make it only Mimes/Troupes.  Maybe Warlocks should be able to take it too though?

Regarding Masque of the Red Death, I still think that if you can't kill someone in two phases you really need to redo your army!

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #44 on: July 1, 2003, 03:58:40 PM »
I will consider all of this.

Anyone else having tried this out?

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #45 on: July 1, 2003, 04:19:47 PM »
I think I might (if I have time) play another game with it against Blood Angels.  I want to see how it does against a CC army.  If I try another game, I will probably take Masque of the whatever Veil and another Harly Squad to test the power of super-drop pods.

Offline Von Lazuli

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #46 on: July 2, 2003, 03:15:30 AM »
I personally think that the Masques should be like Kroot evolutionary adaptations (i.e each model pays +2 points or whatever). Because right now you can pay 25pts in order to get 10 Harlequins with the power (small games) or 25pts to get 300 Harlequins with the power (absolutly huge games).
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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #47 on: July 2, 2003, 03:32:18 AM »
I personally think that the Masques should be like Kroot evolutionary adaptations (i.e each model pays +2 points or whatever). Because right now you can pay 25pts in order to get 10 Harlequins with the power (small games) or 25pts to get 300 Harlequins with the power (absolutly huge games).
Please elaborate on this. What sort of adaptations should the Harlequins be able to get?

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #48 on: July 2, 2003, 09:13:26 AM »
I believe he means that they should be able to have the Masques, but the cost scales up by the number of models.

I played another game and won.  It was against a Wyche cult, 1000 points.  I deepstriked with the full army.  I don't think that anything is really unbalanced actually.  Actually the cult did horrible placement and allowed me to force a bottleneck by killing a Raider.

In addition, the Wyche cult ability to nullify +1 attacks is realllly annoying...

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #49 on: July 2, 2003, 09:26:08 AM »
I see your point. Will look it over.

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Offline Von Lazuli

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #50 on: July 3, 2003, 01:12:15 AM »
OK. Here is basically what I mean. If a Great Harlequin gets a Masque then it effects all the models in the army, no matter how many there are. So it costs 25 - 50pts to give the whole army an ability. So what I am thinking is:

A Harlequin band may choose a Masque to practice before the battle. These masques are taught to them by a Great Harlequin who has knowlage of the masque being taught.
If the Harlequin army is led by a Great Harlequin then you may select a masque to be taught to the band from the following list. Every Harlequin in the army must have the masque, not just single squads or models.
The masques are:
Masque of the Dark Veil at +3 pts/model.
The Great Harlequin uses his or her intimate  knowledge of the webway to open a portal at a strategic location on the battlefield, allowing the Harlequins to leap upon their unsuspecting foes or snatch a vital objective before the enemy can reach it. The entire Harlequin army starts the battle in reserve. However, you may roll for units to turn up from the start of the first turn rather than the second turn, as shown on the following chart:

Turn                        1     2    3   4+
D6 score to arrive   5+  4+  3+  2+

Before you roll to see which units turn up the first turn, you must nominate a point on the battlefield to be the webway exit (mark it with a counter or coin if you like). Any units which turn up from reserve must move on from that point, rather than moving on from a table edge. You may move the webway exit by 2D6" at the start of each subsequent Harlequin turn (before rolling to see which units arrive).

Masque of the Last Laugh at +2pts/model
The Great Harlequin has trained his or her warriors to lash out at their enemies in their death throes, ensuring that they do not die alone. When a Harlequin is killed in an assault they may immediately make one attack against the model that killed them, resolved using the normal rules. The Harlequin can only ever make one attacks, regardless of how many they could normally make, and may make this attack even if they have already attacked that turn. Once the attack has been resolved the Harlequin model is removed as normal.
Note: This may not be taken by a HArlequin Wrathlord due to the fact that they are already dead.

Masque of the Laughing God at +1pt/model.
It is claimed that the patron of the Harlequins, the Laughing God, saves their souls from Chaos. When the Harlequins perform the Masque of the Laughing God, they call upon him to aid them against the daemons and warriors of the False God of Chaos. Through their ritual dances, they create protective auras of energy around themselves, disrupting the magicks that bind daemons to the real world. The Masque of the Laughing God means that a Chaos player who is summoning daemons to the battlefield cannot place any part of the template within 6" of a Harlequin model (before rolling the scatter dice). See Warhammer 40,000 or Codex: Chaos for more details of summoning daemons. The Masque of the Laughing God has no effect against Greater Daemons possessing models (see Codex: Chaos).

Masque of the Red Death at +2pts/model.
The Harlequins converge on a single point, taking it in turns to leap upon the enemy before withdrawing and allowing another troupe to attack. A Harlequin unit can choose to withdraw from an assault at the end of any assault phase (after all results have been worked out and any morale checks have been taken). The unit simply moves 2D6" away from the enemy unit. This move cannot be used to take the Harlequin unit into a fresh enemy. The enemy unit that the Harlequins have withdrawn from may make a consolidate move. This tactic is most effective when your units work in pairs; one unit charging, and then withdrawing from the fight in the opponent's assault phase, allowing the other unit to shoot and charge the enemy in your next turn.


Masque of the Shifting Shadows at +10pts/squad or Independent Character
The Harlequins dance and weave around each other, creating an ever-shifting miasma of colour. This serves to further confuse and entrance the enemy and makes it impossible to discern exactly how many warriors are attacking. When working out if one side outnumbers the other after an assault, the Harlequins are always considered as many as their opponents, regardless of the facts at hand. If the Harlequins are using Hallucinogen grenades they are counted as outnumbering their opponents 2:1. Note about points cost: Death Jesters pay 10pts per elites choice chosen, not per model, as they are effectively a squad.
« Last Edit: July 3, 2003, 08:52:43 PM by Von Lazuli »
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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #51 on: July 3, 2003, 05:35:54 AM »
It looks carefully planned, but also overly complicated to calculate, running, changing every time the list changes to include more/less troupers, and another DJ.
I think a cost for >1000 point total, another for 1000-2000, a third for 2000-4000 and a final one for 4000+ pointbattle is better. How does that sound?

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Offline Von Lazuli

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #52 on: July 3, 2003, 05:40:12 AM »
Your sounds as though it works, but make the list a bit unbalanced points wise. I dont know, maybe think of the masques like Chaos Vetern Skills?

And a note for Rasmus: I agree mine was overly complicated, and no it wasn't carefully planned it was just yours with the points values mucked around with a bit.
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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #53 on: July 3, 2003, 09:43:44 AM »
First of all:
Masque of the Last Laugh is identical to Catalyst, the Tyranid Psychic Power.  Catalyst costs 10 point per squad, essentially.  Therefore, this Masque should be ten points per squad.

For the rest though, scaling by point cost is good.  Or you could just do something like 1-10 models, or 1-3 squads, or 1-1000 points.  I think that squads is best actually because that best represents the average.

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #54 on: July 3, 2003, 09:45:21 AM »
So what would be the appropriate costs for the different masques at the different levels?

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #55 on: July 3, 2003, 09:52:30 AM »
hmmhmm good question.  I'd say that Last Laugh really needs to be costed like Catalyst, as they are identical.  That means 12 per troop squad, as there is no psychic tests and it would be bad to give it to all.  The HQ could get it for 12 for both, or 6 for the Great?

For Veil, I'd say that it should be 25 points per troop choice, but everything else gets it free.  Regarding Red Death, I think you should designate pairs and each gets it for 15, maybe?

I'd never use Shifting Shadows so I have no idea how to price it.

I think it keeps it simple to have it be only troop choices (in general) that you pay for.

Offline Grimm

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #56 on: July 3, 2003, 09:58:30 AM »
I think Von Lazuli idea of making the Masque based on models makes alot of sence and I don't think its overly complicated. The cost would be added to the squad and not the Great Harlequin.

Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #57 on: July 3, 2003, 10:03:43 AM »
Its incredible complicated to calculate correctly (my English teach would love that one).  Different costs for ICs, WLs?  No, it is too confusing.  One of the whole points of this revision is to make clear rules that are easy to understand so that GW can not turn it down if we send it to them. ;)

On a different note, look what I found:Harliquin Codex: EO Style This is from so long ago!

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #58 on: July 3, 2003, 11:12:00 AM »
Several items from that list that I took into consideration and tried for this list, but not many made it. The thing made back then was all about NEW units. This revision is primarily about using exisiting units. New units to be introduced later.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #59 on: July 3, 2003, 11:21:58 AM »
I wonder if this thread will reach 13 pages too...I doubt it though.  I will probably playtest this list tonight at my gaming club using the 40K in 40 minutes rules.

 


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