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Author Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!  (Read 84875 times)

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2003, 11:29:16 AM »
Guardsmen can fight in hand to hand.  It is one of their greatest strengths as they can use overwhelming numbers.  The point is that this is especially potent for Harlequins as at the moment overwhelming them is the best strategy if they get into CC.  An ignore injury rule like this would make them obscenely dominant.

In reality, you should be in CC 1st turn and they will fall to ordinance just as much as you.  Also, that might be within a minimum range.

Offline Grimm

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2003, 12:59:14 PM »
Nice work. I'll give them a spin.

Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2003, 01:31:53 PM »
Guardsmen can fight in hand to hand.  It is one of their greatest strengths as they can use overwhelming numbers.  The point is that this is especially potent for Harlequins as at the moment overwhelming them is the best strategy if they get into CC.  An ignore injury rule like this would make them obscenely dominant.

In reality, you should be in CC 1st turn and they will fall to ordinance just as much as you.  Also, that might be within a minimum range.

ignore injury rule? it's like a wych's hth inv sv, just a 4+ inv

guardsmen hitting on 5+, wounding on 4+, saved on 4+... that's not as bad as vs marines, where you hit on 4+, wound on 5+ and your attack's negated on 3+

harlequins are also pretty expensive, you'll have approximately 4 guardsmen to every harlequin
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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2003, 09:10:21 AM »
I know but that is what it does against IG.  My point about the invulnerable save is that when you can easily whittle them down with Shurikens, killing the remains is too easy if you have an invulnerable save.

Also, you will typically not have that many guardsmen to a harly as IG tanks are expensive...

Offline Shadowseer Amaroth

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2003, 12:43:47 PM »
 :) ;D
This is incredible Rasmus!
Very good work. I checked the list rigth away after your tip, and its soo good!
The Familiars for the Shadowseer is my new favorites!


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Offline Pendragon

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2003, 01:14:20 PM »
You need not bother with rules for Harlequins. At the Baltimore Gamesday, Andy Chambers stated for a fact that Harlequins would be getting thier own codex. I cannot remember when he said it would be out, but definitely it was coming.

They had a sit down with Andy, where he just talked about up and coming projects. The harlequins were pretty high up on the list of projects that were coming.

Just ask anyone who attended the Baltimore Gamesday and you will get the same response. I would have thought that it would have already been posted on this forum somewhere?

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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2003, 01:28:40 PM »
I know but that is what it does against IG.  My point about the invulnerable save is that when you can easily whittle them down with Shurikens, killing the remains is too easy if you have an invulnerable save.

Also, you will typically not have that many guardsmen to a harly as IG tanks are expensive...

i still don't quite get your point, it's a 4+ inv sv. and from what i know on guardsmen, they don't usually have a prolific amount of power weapons (so the inv part isn't too much of a big deal). You'd still get more trouble from marines bolting your men down and charging into hth.

25pts is a basic harlequin, no power weapons or kiss's.
just pistol and ccw
firing at bs3, he can hit 1/2 the time, wound on a 3+, penetrate flak
then charging in at 3 attacks, at most 4 guardsmen die, which is about the value of one harlequin, and 4 guardsmen dying is at most, not averaged

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2003, 09:19:59 PM »
The point is that it halves the Guardsmens already horrendous chance to kill Harlequins.  It is common practice in GW rules that everything should stand some sort of a chance, except against high toughness.  This is identical here, Guardsmen need to stand a chance.  

When this is combined with the power of the Shuriken and Bio-Ammo, it is obscenely powerful.

Pendragon of course we need to bother with rules for Harlequins as the rules made by GW will probably be full of holes.

Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2003, 11:53:45 AM »
The point is that it halves the Guardsmens already horrendous chance to kill Harlequins.  It is common practice in GW rules that everything should stand some sort of a chance, except against high toughness.  This is identical here, Guardsmen need to stand a chance.  

When this is combined with the power of the Shuriken and Bio-Ammo, it is obscenely powerful.

Pendragon of course we need to bother with rules for Harlequins as the rules made by GW will probably be full of holes.
what chances do harlequins stand against being shot to death? at t3 and a 4+ cover save, you just need multi lasers and lasguns

and on inquisitor familiars
they enhance the inquisitor's stats, pretty much making them force commanders with s3 t3 if you get all of them
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Offline Shadow Lord

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2003, 03:07:00 PM »
Great rasmus do you mind if we use this in CWEO.

Offline Indro Tyr

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2003, 03:13:32 PM »
Personally I agree on that Guardsmen should stand basicly no chance at killing Harlequins in combat. First off because it's just plain wrong if they do, I mean they already will outnumber them over 3-1 most of the time. Secondly, the Sweeping Advance will butcher any Harlequins out in the open. So a rapid-firing Guardsmen squad of let's say 10 lasguns will hit 10 times, wound 5, kill 2.5. They'd kill on average a little more than 50 points, which wow! That's almost the same amount you just butchered in CC without sustaining any losses, so it all balances out in the end.
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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2003, 05:52:29 PM »
I appreciate any and all feedback, and the list is still being playtested. Some things need sorting out still.
If you care to playtest it; please do, just make sure that any commants, critique or other feedback finds its way back here

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2003, 10:29:31 PM »
TMP the whole point of Venoms is to prevent that from happening.  Harlequins, IMHO, are all about waiting for the correct time to start a killer strike that can not be countered.  Therefore the shooting bit is sort of pointless as you SHOULD NOT BE SEEN!

Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2003, 10:49:52 AM »
TMP the whole point of Venoms is to prevent that from happening.  Harlequins, IMHO, are all about waiting for the correct time to start a killer strike that can not be countered.  Therefore the shooting bit is sort of pointless as you SHOULD NOT BE SEEN!

how hard is it to knock out an av10 skimmer? you make it sound like venom's are unstoppable

i know guardsmen can bring alot of lascannons, they don't even need lascannons for that, the multilasers vs the harlequin troupes work fine

i guess the game comes down to, shoot down the venoms, or for the harlequins, get into assault

still, even when the harlequins charge, you could use a cheap squad as a sacrificial buffer, when they're butchered, sweeping advance into a wall of lasguns isn't a good idea
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Offline Indro Tyr

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2003, 01:26:21 PM »
My 1,500 point army works on a similiar priciple. I have 3 squads of 6 Harlequins, one in each Venom. A Great Harlequin, Shadowseer, and Solitaire is in the Venoms with each of the squads. Supported by 6 Death Jesters with Brightlances or Missile Launchers they deploy out of sight at the beginning of the game. Then one of two things happens. If the enemy moves up I move the vehicle 12", drop out 2", Fleet of Foot, and assault. If the enemy is far I move the vehicle 24" in the best possile cover and pray that if I am damaged I am destroyed and not stunned, for I'll be right up on them for next turn either wounded on foot or helpless and he can penetrate me. Hmmm... what was the point of this again? Oh yeah, to agree with Infinity Circuit's post. Now I remember...
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Offline shadydentist

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2003, 07:08:00 PM »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that solitaires could not ride venoms with a squad because they cannot joint a unit, therefore counts as a separate unit, and vehicles can only transport ONE unit.
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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2003, 08:01:30 PM »
This has been coverered before, but if you want to start up a new topic about it; go ahead. However, if it does not has anything to do with this list; please take it elsewhere.

This goes for all.

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Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #37 on: July 1, 2003, 11:10:56 AM »
So, I have updated the list, and I have gotten some feedback. The familiars are fixed, so are the wording on some items, as well as the price of the Shadowseer. The familiars have gone through preliminary testing, but I would like more playtested opinions on this (please playtest it before you comment, as you will get a better feel for it that way).

I would also like to thank those who have contributed with comments and ideas, and hope to see some battlereports soon!

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #38 on: July 1, 2003, 11:13:45 AM »
I'm going to playtest this in a 1500 point battle against Chaos basically right now.

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #39 on: July 1, 2003, 11:15:09 AM »
Good luck and don't slack in letting us know how it went!

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