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Offline Rasmus

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Harlequin Revision - EO!
« on: June 20, 2003, 11:13:23 AM »
After many hours of work, pouring over older lists, reading and re-reading CJ-lists, other people's proto-lists and older things, claimed from the RT era and onwards, and playtesting in dozens of fights against different armies, I will now place this revision on EO.

I submitted it first for publication on this site, but seeing the stream of proto-lists I thought it was not right. I have instead posted it here.

Now, the list itself is not here, as it would be rather big, and hard to edit, so I placed it on my website instead, and ask all of you, veterans and newcomers to the Masques, all, to view this and say if you think it could be worth submitting to GW in the name of EO.

Click here for revision - 5th ed


The list contains nothing new, which is worth pointing out, but rather things that were found in older lists, and in variations of these. Oh, that's true. The Mockingbird is new, but it is VDR, and included more for completeness than anything else. Thank you Wes!

Feedback is encouraged.


*EDIT - I have linked this to the PDF-document instead, for easier reading/printing.
*EDIT - Latest update 9/11-05 (page 43)
*EDIT - Rehosted the files.
*EDIT - 5th Ed up (14/2 - 2009, page 48)
*EDIT - 1.4 (9/10 - 2010, page 57, rehosted 16/12-2010)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 11:31:00 AM by Rasmus »

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2003, 11:24:13 AM »
That is incredible!!

I have a question.  For the special vehicle breakdown rules when you roll a one do you roll again on the table?  Because it says only do this if you roll a 1.  However, it never says to roll another d6.

I also feel that they should be able to take Dreadnoughts of Ork and SM heritage.  This would allow more flexibility.

Also, does the Master Mime come alone?  It says in the fluff it has a student...

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2003, 12:17:42 PM »
I will look into the breakdown rue. Thank you for bringing it to my attention

The thing about other dreadnoughts; the history of dreadnoughts has been that is is crewed. Getting the every-dying man in the Sm dread convinced to fight on the side of the Harlequins (since you can not remove him) seems rather a tall order, wouldn't you agree?

Actually, the Master Mime does come alone. Whatever you have read about them always having studnets (which seems rather Episode I to me :) ) it is not something found in the original list.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2003, 12:23:18 PM »
When I said the fluff I was talking about the stuff in your codex revision.  Didn't it say that the person heard laughter and a "playing card" left behind my the Master Mime and his student.

Regarding Dreadnoughts they could have easily put in a spirit stone.  However if you want to stick to the original rules then don't do this.

One more thing.  How is a skimmer supposed to use a Vibrocannon?  I mean wouldn't it shake it pieces?

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2003, 01:00:25 PM »
That would mean that a helicopter shakes apart because of the noise from its own engine... Which is does not. :) Frankly, we know nothing behind the physocs of a vibrocannon, so best not speculate in such matters.

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Offline Inquisitor Daedalus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2003, 02:50:01 PM »
Again, a very nice list Rasmus. I especially like the Flight-belt Troupes and the grenade launchers. Good idea. Bt what would they be dropping from? A webway portal in the sky?
Also the Allies thing is nice too. Ranger and Harlies in the same army! ;D

I think it is worthy of GW.

BTW, can I play test it? I am interested in the preformance and balance. It looks good on paper, but you never can really tell.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2003, 02:51:25 PM by C'tan Man »
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Offline PhoulMouth

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2003, 02:52:30 PM »
umm.........  looted vehicles?   Cmon there eldar. do you really think there gonna use technology from a lesser race?  NO


Offline Cegorach

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2003, 03:50:44 PM »
yes from what ive heard they used to do it all the time in RT

so ya they would prettymuch use whatever they can get their hands on

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2003, 04:28:02 PM »
We don't know how the Vibrocannon works but that doesn't mean we should ignore any possible side affects.  However I still feel its best to keep it the way it is.

Back in the days of RT Eldar were pirates, taking everything and using it for themselves.  This list is meant to reflect the harlequins from 1985 to 2003.  It is not purely for the fluff of 3rd edition.

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2003, 05:23:50 PM »
Quote
Again, a very nice list Rasmus. I especially like the Flight-belt Troupes and the grenade launchers. Good idea. Bt what would they be dropping from? A webway portal in the sky?
They can get out of any webway, and then take to the sky, soaring high above the field until they find where they want to land, just like Swooping Hawks.

Quote
BTW, can I play test it? I am interested in the preformance and balance. It looks good on paper, but you never can really tell.
Absolutely. Please tell me of any errors, omissions or imbalances you find. In my trialgames we found some, and ironed them out. They are gone now.

Quote
umm.........  looted vehicles?  Cmon there eldar. do you really think there gonna use technology from a lesser race?  NO
One of the major strengths of the Harlequins in the RT era was their ability to steal pretty much whatever they wanted; tanks, transports, robots (yes robots, not dreadnoughts, the robots are gone now) and equipment, slap a coat of happier paint and a holo-field on it and roll it into combat.

I have a looted Leman Russ and a robot in my Masque. They look... disco-ish...

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2003, 05:32:44 PM »
Rasmus what race had the robots?  Or were they  just their to be looted lol.

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2003, 07:00:57 PM »
The imperials had robots, and so did the orks, unless recollection fails. However, it is not for this topic. If you want more info, I suggest you try General 40k.

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Offline Indro Tyr

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2003, 10:45:49 PM »
Great list, but I've got a few suggestions. If any of you know the rules for Inquisitor Familiars (in 40k), I think most of you will notice the huge differences between them and the BENATHAI familiars. Rasmus, you were on the right track, but I would HIGHLY suggest that you take a look at these rules, they are much more solid than your own, no offense (just trying to help). And if they have a 4+ invuln save in CC, why not just extend that to shooting for simplicity of the rules? Also, why did you include the Venom as both a Transport and Fast Attack? That would be a whopping 85 point FA choice, which is one of the reasons everyone agrees that it should be taken out of Heavy Support. Perhaps just make it a Transport option to every unit you want to have the capability to take it, like in normal armeis. Also, I love the Masque idea, good thinking! I would also like to see some fluff for the Spiritwalker, and such as why you MUST take a Shadowseer to use it (but then again you'd have to be a fool not to take one... they're so cool). One possible oversight was the Flight Belt. Do you still want Harlequins crashing on a '1' in DT? I know the Flip Belt rules state otherwise, but it can get mighty confusing when you have a unit's rules contradicting each other. And might I suggest for the Warlocks;

A - make them a retinue for the Shadowseer himself (and the idea of letting them being mounted on Harlequin Jetbikes is wicked if I must say so myself, think about it)

B - Make them 1-3 and let them detach into Harlequin squads, using the psyhic powers to enhance the unit in the same way as CWE.

So, looks good overall, and let us know if anything is changed.  ;D
« Last Edit: June 20, 2003, 10:47:59 PM by Indro Tyr »
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Offline Inquisitor Daedalus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2003, 12:13:21 AM »
In the Flight-belt troupes section it says:

"Up to 2 models in the squad may exchange their close combat weapon for a Harlequin's Kiss at +5 points per model, and up to two models in the squad may exchange their close combat weapon for a power weapon for +6 points per model. Up to two models may exchange their shuriken pistol for either a plasma pistol at +5 points, or a fusion pistol for +8 points."

Does that mean that you can potentially have 2 power weapons and two kisses in the same squad? Same goes for the pistols. I'm guessing it should be like the normal troupe (2 in total, not 2 of each), but I could be wrong.

I'll start play testing ASAP. :D
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Offline Jonik

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2003, 05:33:31 AM »
VERY well done Rasmus, I will start using this list shortly.

And if they have a 4+ invuln save in CC, why not just extend that to shooting for simplicity of the rules?

Well, the 4+cover save can be fine against most shooting weapons but against blast and flame, they are allowed no save which shows the harlies lack of armour. The 4+ cover save is their ability to move faster than the enemy can keep track of them and the 4+ invulnerable save in combat is their dodge ability.

I think it makes perfect sense :)

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Offline the solitaire

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2003, 08:29:16 AM »
I'm goona give it a test run before speaking my mind. I like what I see although I think that two 4+ unmodifiable saves might be a bit much.

On the other hand, Harlequins have not changed a thing since the rules for 2nd ed, but for the fact that you can now make units of less than 10 models.

Offline Rasmus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2003, 09:35:23 AM »
Quote
If any of you know the rules for Inquisitor Familiars (in 40k), I think most of you will notice the huge differences between them and the BENATHAI familiars. Rasmus, you were on the right track, but I would HIGHLY suggest that you take a look at these rules, they are much more solid than your own, no offense (just trying to help).
Can you give me a quick rundown of the mechanics? How do they work in Inquisitor? (no stats or breach of copyright, but just a general rundown, you can PM me the gist of it at least. Thank you).

Quote
Also, why did you include the Venom as both a Transport and Fast Attack? That would be a whopping 85 point FA choice, which is one of the reasons everyone agrees that it should be taken out of Heavy Support. Perhaps just make it a Transport option to every unit you want to have the capability to take it, like in normal armeis.
Because it seems strange to buy to Venoms, one for your Solitaire and one for your Troupe... This way you can get one as a FA, and use it as a taxi.

Quote
Also, I love the Masque idea, good thinking!
Not my idea, but actually in GWs first list, but somehow didn't make it to the CJ one.

Quote
I would also like to see some fluff for the Spiritwalker, and such as why you MUST take a Shadowseer to use it (but then again you'd have to be a fool not to take one... they're so cool).
Fluff and graphics would be added prior to submission when all the mechanical and mathmatical things are sorted out. Thank you for pointing it out though.

Quote
One possible oversight was the Flight Belt. Do you still want Harlequins crashing on a '1' in DT? I know the Flip Belt rules state otherwise, but it can get mighty confusing when you have a unit's rules contradicting each other.
I will put something like that in on the Flight belt. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Come to think of it; I never rolled a 1 when Deepstriking with these guys...

Quote
And might I suggest for the Warlocks;

A - make them a retinue for the Shadowseer himself (and the idea of letting them being mounted on Harlequin Jetbikes is wicked if I must say so myself, think about it)

B - Make them 1-3 and let them detach into Harlequin squads, using the psyhic powers to enhance the unit in the same way as CWE.
 My original placement for the Warlocks were like that, but it proved to be a poor Elite-choice that way, and also seemed overpowering. This way they are a hard-hitting unit on their own, and a good Elite-choice. If they join forces with the SS they are even harder, of course.
   I tried making some rules for Avatars and Warlocks in squads but it got overly complicated and overly powerful as well.


Quote
Does that mean that you can potentially have 2 power weapons and two kisses in the same squad? Same goes for the pistols. I'm guessing it should be like the normal troupe (2 in total, not 2 of each), but I could be wrong.
Of course you are not wrong. i will make sure the wording is corrected fast enough. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2003, 10:21:28 PM by Rasmus »

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2003, 10:36:24 AM »
I feel that the 4+ Invulnerable save is too much after a bunch of thinking.  It would make them way too powerful against IG, for example, with the Shuriken Pistols/bio-ammo to rip through the ranks and then the invulnerable save will completely stop the few remaining attacks.  I have a couple solutions:

1.  Keep it the way it is (I like this one :D)

2.  Make it like Storm Shield for Black Templars Assault Squads.  They have to cut the Shuriken to take the save.

Offline Inquisitor Daedalus

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2003, 01:52:41 PM »
Quote
Does that mean that you can potentially have 2 power weapons and two kisses in the same squad? Same goes for the pistols. I'm guessing it should be like the normal troupe (2 in total, not 2 of each), but I could be wrong.
 
Of course you are not wrong. i will make sure the wording is corrected fast enough. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.  

Damn, I kinda liked it that way. :'( ;D
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Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re:Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2003, 10:11:19 AM »
I feel that the 4+ Invulnerable save is too much after a bunch of thinking.  It would make them way too powerful against IG, for example, with the Shuriken Pistols/bio-ammo to rip through the ranks and then the invulnerable save will completely stop the few remaining attacks.  I have a couple solutions:

1.  Keep it the way it is (I like this one :D)

2.  Make it like Storm Shield for Black Templars Assault Squads.  They have to cut the Shuriken to take the save.

when have guardsmen EVER stood up to anything in hth?

it seems pretty fair to me, considering that ordnance will leave a few brightly colored craters lying about
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