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Author Topic: The Big 40k Announcement  (Read 2117 times)

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Offline Killersquid

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #40 on: June 2, 2020, 10:24:39 AM »
Crusade is so damn fun KS. Honestly its the only way I want to play going forward. Its so easy to get going and easy to track that I can easily imagine people having individual campaigns with individual players. I've been able to track my entire army on just about 2 pieces of paper. Its the choices in terms of battle honors, requisitions, or taking battle scars where it gets complicated- but thats only complicated mentally, in actually tracking it, its super easy and very fun.

I think people are gonna be pretty blown away in just how far you can push Crusade. It is a permanent part of the game now and tons of time has been spent on it.


One of the guys in our club is a warhammer store manager, so I know he's seen the rules. He hasn't told us anything, but we both have the same attitude on how we like to play. He's really excited about it, so I know it's something I'm going to enjoy too.

I'm 3/4 of the way repainting my Harlequins right now, so I'm hopefully going to have them ready for 9th and all the good times to come!
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #41 on: June 2, 2020, 10:37:20 AM »
Bro those new Harlequin rules are so legit. I've been ripping the ever loving guts out of my opponents outside of playtesting with just regular Harlequins (helping out my Asuryani) I cannot wait to get new Harlies on the table.

The Soaring Spite Troupe Master is an absolute freaking monster now with the disembark after moving warlord trait, the mortal wound Pivotal role and Cegorach's rose? Good freaking night. He's got 50" threat range and Damage 4 in melee with Murderous Entrance, plus mortal wounds on top it. Give him a fusion pistol and party
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Offline Killersquid

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #42 on: June 2, 2020, 10:53:55 AM »
There is a lot of cool stuff! Spring spite seems the obvious choice, so I want to run something different lol. Might do dreaming shadow, or veiled path rules for a change. Since the release of the plastic kits mine were painted as midnight sorrow, now I'll be able to experiment!
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Offline Dread

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #43 on: June 2, 2020, 01:42:00 PM »
Bro those new Harlequin rules are so legit. I've been ripping the ever loving guts out of my opponents outside of playtesting with just regular Harlequins (helping out my Asuryani) I cannot wait to get new Harlies on the table.

The Soaring Spite Troupe Master is an absolute freaking monster now with the disembark after moving warlord trait, the mortal wound Pivotal role and Cegorach's rose? Good freaking night. He's got 50" threat range and Damage 4 in melee with Murderous Entrance, plus mortal wounds on top it. Give him a fusion pistol and party

Oh my! This is getting me excited for sure, can't wait to get back to playing the game myself. Hit a little hiccup this week so will be a little longer wait. Thanks Cav!
« Last Edit: June 2, 2020, 03:55:00 PM by Dread »
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Offline magenb

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #44 on: June 2, 2020, 08:01:00 PM »
..He's got 50" threat range..

This is the problem with 8th, soo many rules that sound immediately awesome with little regard to game mechanics. Melee units threat range should not out reach standard infantry weapons, let alone super powered anti tank weapons and out pace vehicles, including skimmers that don't even need to worry about terrain..

40k rules used to have _some_ connection to real life, such as movement was restricted because you didn't know what was around the corner, uneven ground, rounds wizzing all over the battlefield, etc. It was close enough that you could actually use real strategies.

If this was a PvE game, it would be fine, but its a PvP game, a rule like that is going to leave someone salty and I wouldn't blame them, it not fun to have things like that used against you. It feels more like a cheat code than being out played.



Offline Killersquid

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #45 on: June 2, 2020, 08:27:25 PM »
I think your expectations are a bit unrealistic. 40k is never going to be a real life simulator, it's a board game.

For the harlequin trick, it sounds good on paper, but there are always ways to mitigate or negate them with smart deployment. They are also super fragile. A single harlequin character in the middle of your army will die fast.


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Offline Cavalier

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #46 on: June 2, 2020, 09:22:04 PM »
Mage the threat range is because he's allowed to advance and charge, out of a Skyweaver that is also advancing and charging. You can kill him with a single unit of Guardsmen.

If you think a Harlequin Troupe Master disembarking and charging out of a vehicle is cheating, I think you gotta re calibrate your settings. That makes total sense within the lore and in game turns, its a move where you are giving up Warlord (and critical character) to take out another character or a small squad.
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Offline magenb

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #47 on: June 3, 2020, 12:51:13 AM »
Mage the threat range is because he's allowed to advance and charge, out of a Skyweaver that is also advancing and charging. You can kill him with a single unit of Guardsmen.

If you think a Harlequin Troupe Master disembarking and charging out of a vehicle is cheating, I think you gotta re calibrate your settings. That makes total sense within the lore and in game turns, its a move where you are giving up Warlord (and critical character) to take out another character or a small squad.

Yes jumping out a skimmer and fly kicking something in the face is very Harlie lore wise, but not over that distance. Most lore is effective written from a PvE perspective and they still don't go
that bonkers (most of the time lol).  (Player verse Environment)

While there is no official time frame per phase, the game mechanic does have a time component.  You can move forward with caution, or you can go full tilt, this reduces the amount of time you have to aim. Infantry carrying heavy weapons used to move or fire, due to how long it would take to set it up again, and so on. How far something moves is related to its potential speed, you can't have speed with out time. that' 50 inch coverage is a significant distance...


In a gaming system where it is PvP rather than PvE, the mechanics need to be a bit more like tic-tac-toe, in that for every move there is a a counter move. For example Feel no pain in previous edition could be bypassed with power weapons or double T, strength weapons, because feeling no pain is not really that useful when you've been chopped in half or taken an anti-tank rocket to the face, mind you that is also why high S weapons could out right kill multi wound models :) This also meant every army could be built to have a counter to any units that had it, you then had a dance of one side trying to deploy the beef cake units away from the counter, or trying to take out the count before it could hit them. There was a reasonable chance for either side to deal with it.


Now you could counter a 50inch charge by dropping a character in the middle of a unit, but how easy is it to remove any non-horde unit, even 10 primaris marines isn't that difficult to remove, or to make a big enough dent to create an opening.. especially if your using a soup.. so if you want to protect your self from that move you basically have to castle up around your character... You really shouldn't be able to cover that much ground on a battlefield unhindered. 


Games ultimately need to have a sense of fair play. While some people will get salty because they are snow flakes, some actually get salty because something happens that breaks that sense of fair play. The more that sense of fair play is broken, the less they are willing to continue playing. Ultimately I would feel rather crappy about pulling this sort of move on someone else, let alone if it was pulled on me. So, to me, this like a lot of other things in 8th, breaks that sense of fair play. 8th is also the first edition where I've heard people apologizing for a legit move before they do it, I guess that is both positive and negative in that its good people bad rules lol.



Offline Killersquid

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #48 on: June 3, 2020, 07:46:16 AM »
The 50" charge has existed since the Harlequins codex came out years ago, it's clearly not that big of a deal, as not many people know about it. You sacrifice your warlord, to try and get warlord/ another character. It's risk vs reward.

Gotcha moments can exist, but it's just good sportsmanship to warn your opponent of those sorts of things, so they are not caught off guard by it. It's impossible to know all the rules, so it's unreasonable to expect your opponent knows all yours. I always let my opponent know of any of the tricky things my army does, as I hate creating gotcha moments.
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #49 on: June 3, 2020, 08:30:17 AM »
Mage the counter move to every move does exist, and it exists in more lore reflective ways than the bogus universal special rules mechanics that hamstrung all 13+ codices to a handful of mechanics, and if those mechancis didn't reflect your armies lore you were SOL.

Removing 10 Primaris Marines is easily done? Honestly man, I play one of the most high octane fire power based lists and if I have to remove 10 Primaris Marines, especially if they are in cover, its a considerable investment of fire power.

And in the SPECIFIC example of Harlequins, burning through chaff/screens is their biggest issue. Chewing through 10 Primaris Space Marines before combat is a huge task for them and if you make that opening with Harlequins you should absolutely have game mechanics to pull off such a move. If you pulll it off you've traded a knight for a queen and thats how Harlequins roll.

And as for this tic-tac-toe dynamic you want its never going to exist in a game with 13 factions and hundreds of units nor is anything resembling that the aim of the design team. Their goal is to bring the narrative to life, and in that their is going to be assymetry. Its not a barrier to play, its a challenge to overcome. Especially with Harlequins which are one of the most difficult to play armies and the game (and they should be).

I understand you want to go back to the days of 5th edition, which IMO were frankly terrible if you didnt play Grey Knight (which had 75% representation at tournaments at the end of the supposedly halcyon era of 40k) IG, Space Wolves or Drukhari. But lets not derail this thread any further. We can start a debate thread over the merits of 8th elsewhere. Lets keep this a place to talk about 9th edition
« Last Edit: June 3, 2020, 08:31:31 AM by Cavalier »
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Offline Radec

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #50 on: June 3, 2020, 08:58:53 AM »
@Cavalier can you answer this in light of your NDA:
In 9th,does fire direction matter (aside from maneuvering for LOS). No details needed(whether it is built in the core rules or the new specific terrain keywords), yes or no would suffice. Thanks

Offline Cavalier

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #51 on: June 3, 2020, 09:47:36 AM »
Sorry Radec I can't answer that. I wish I could. But in general 9th is a continuation of 8th, with more refinement in terms of core rules, less shenanigans, more narrative and tactical depth in regards to terrain and stratagems. Thats as much as I can say.
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Offline Radec

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #52 on: June 3, 2020, 09:55:13 AM »
Np, thanks  :)

Offline Cavalier

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #53 on: June 3, 2020, 12:28:59 PM »
Thank the Gods they announced higher points totals. It was gonna be hard to doing these previews without that bit of information.

It makes for such a better game. Smaller armies, reserves, blast weapons, better vehicles makes for such a faster game, in addition to the already streamlined rules.

It really incentivizes support vehicles in my experience. Land Speeders, Vypers, Hornets etc. are great in this edition because they are low points models that fit a nice little niche and they are great Reserve options as well.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #54 on: June 3, 2020, 09:57:14 PM »
I can't wait to see the terrain changes. My group has always played a good helping of various types of terrain on the board.

I was already playing games using the "always counts in cover" with longer Shuriken range and was loving it in semi-competitive games. It actually makes an army full of Avengers, Vypers and Windriders really good.

It sounds like these terrain changes put a lot more emphasis on it. Can finally live my dream of a Shuriken Ninja Craftworld list.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #55 on: June 4, 2020, 07:44:49 AM »
In my experience, the changes to terrain put a HUGE emphasis on Eldar mobility and maneuvering for both offensive and defensive reasons. In the past year, I've reconfigured my lists, to play more to my style, with more of an emphasis on speed and offense, as opposed to just overwhelming offense and its paid off in spades for me and has translated perfectly to 9th. Especially with how matched play secondaries work now (which I've incorporated into games of Crusade at times). 

I know it sounds like a hollow term, but dynamic, is the best way to describe 9th edition. You are interacting with the terrain, you are interacting with objectives (as described in the new article pertaining to actions), the way reserves work now drastically re-shapes the table.

Its just a lot of damn fun. Also because there are less models on the board (due to higher points and reserves) there is more of a feeling out phase in Turn 1 which really helps the game IMO. But I'm looking forward to see how things go in the wild... anyway as you guys can tell I'm very excited
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #56 on: June 6, 2020, 04:47:51 PM »
Damn it, they're redoing Aeronautica. Just when I was trying to get out they suck you back in again.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #57 on: June 6, 2020, 06:13:07 PM »
I very much like the change to command points being tied to the army size.

Cav - Not sure if you give any hints but the new stratagem cut them down they previewed. How does that affect units with hit and run type abilities? My Shining Spears finally get it back and now they'll take mortal wounds using it ?

Offline Cavalier

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #58 on: June 6, 2020, 06:38:38 PM »
@Ninja- Hey bud I've played a LOT of 9th and I have to admit, no one has popped that strat on me. It might be, because I'm dropping my Spears later in games where CP are at a premium and players are saving them for better strats, or I'm just straight up murdering whatever they go into.
 
Bear in mind, I'm using Spears as my primary assault tool because of increased points and still and no one is using that strat, so I wouldn't worry about it honestly. The only time you are dealing with that, is when you send them into hordes, and because of blast weapons there are less of them.  Also sending Spears in against hordes is always a scary movebecause they are only T4... so yeah I wouldn't worry about it. CP demands are intense in 9th because of reserves, buying detachments and the strats are really juicy.

So yeah, CP expenditure is up, its kinda of a desperation strat, and my opponents have all been saving their CP for bigger moves. Against hordes its a problem, but Spears are not what you want to send into hordes anyways. So I wouldnt worry about it in that particular match-up
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Offline magenb

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Re: The Big 40k Announcement
« Reply #59 on: June 8, 2020, 11:25:59 PM »
Cav have you played on the new min area sizes? I realize this is _Min_ lol. Given the point charges is it crowded? Did they they adjust movement to compensate for the reduction?

 


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