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Offline Fenris

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Random core rules changes suggestions
« on: October 31, 2019, 01:54:22 PM »
Looking at the state of the game currently I think some rules are just abused to much and makes the dice too much of a judge when tactical choices would be better and in other areas the rules are just to bloated.
I have some ideas and would like to know what you think before I get hold of a guinea pig to try them out with.

1. Cover, having +1 to Sv is not really usefull for some and to others it is too good.
Instead use -1 to hit.

1b. Intervening cover, if shots are fired at BS 3+ but only hits on 4+ because of cover from an intervening unit, all 3's to hit will hit the intervening unit friend or foe.

2. Re-roll '1's will be changed to +1, full re-roll will change into +2. These allows for automatic to hit & to wound.

3. Advance moves are M/2 instead of D6, charge range equals M and overwatch is +2 to hit (to compensate). Re-rollers get +1 to advance and +2 instead respectively.

4. Command points will not be used for stratagems instead the number of command points dictates how many objective cards you can achieve during the game.

5. Replace D6 with 4 for number of shots and/or damage and replace D3 with 2, this also applies to victory points, so 3+D3 VP is always 5VP for example.
Furthermore 2d6 becomes 7, meltas and similar that roll 2D6 and pick highest becomes flat 6.

Thoughts?

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Offline magenb

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Re: Random core rules changes suggestions
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2019, 06:25:28 PM »
1. Cover, having +1 to Sv is not really usefull for some and to others it is too good.
Instead use -1 to hit.

Yes, it makes sense, but other to hit modifiers would need to be examined. Eldar being -2 to hit being in cover would cause al sorts of people to cry lol.


1b. Intervening cover, if shots are fired at BS 3+ but only hits on 4+ because of cover from an intervening unit, all 3's to hit will hit the intervening unit friend or foe.

HAHAHAHA I like it

2. Re-roll '1's will be changed to +1, full re-roll will change into +2. These allows for automatic to hit & to wound.

If its not an auto hit weapon (flamer), then a 1 should always be a failure. The re-roll of 1 to hit, even if they need 2's still has a chance of failing.



3. Advance moves are M/2 instead of D6, charge range equals M and overwatch is +2 to hit (to compensate). Re-rollers get +1 to advance and +2 instead respectively.

Previous editions had fixed charged distances, I think that would work better than M divided by 2 as you end up with .5 values. I would not Touch overwatch, the game is currently overly swayed to shooting as is.


4. Command points will not be used for stratagems instead the number of command points dictates how many objective cards you can achieve during the game.

If the armies are rebalanced to take stratagems out of the picture then yes. Some armies really need their strats to do work.


5. Replace D6 with 4 for number of shots and/or damage and replace D3 with 2, this also applies to victory points, so 3+D3 VP is always 5VP for example.
Furthermore 2d6 becomes 7, meltas and similar that roll 2D6 and pick highest becomes flat 6.

Not overly fussed, but you are removing a lot of the randomness from the game, which has already lost most of it. IT's also removed a lot of the risk vs reward decisions which just makes the game.. well stale.
I kind of want to change the mechanic for flamers slightly, D6 is fun, but up to a maximum number of models in the unit. So a unit of 3 model can only take 3 hits not, 6. If you wanted to remove the rolling, you could just say it hits every model in the unit once up to a max of 6.




Change mortal wounds to be Auto-Wound, maybe -2 AP.
Bring back scatter on Deep strikes style entries and give _some_ assault units the ability to charge from DS. Having the chance to scatter into terrain and loose models/entire unit. Uber move, uber risk.
Drop stratagems and balance the armies to make up for it.
Have counters to special rules, such as Feel No Pain vs power weapons.
Make re-rolls rare.
Armour modifiers make it too easy to kill stuff, which makes marine feel, meh. Return to the old AP system.



Remove allies (for games under 2,500 points), your entire army must be from the same subfaction, as in all from a single craftworld, all from a single space marine chapter, etc. The whole thing of 3 or 4 craftworlds combining for a piddle skirmish is nuts.
Ynnari, would be able to mix and match, cross race transports allowed except for obvious OP cross over like Dark Reapers in a raider.



Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Random core rules changes suggestions
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2019, 10:59:09 PM »
1. Cover, having +1 to Sv is not really usefull for some and to others it is too good.
Instead use -1 to hit.
This is a horrible idea.  For many armies, it is not difficult to get -1 to hit modifiers against shooting.  So that plus cover is an inherent -2 to hit.  One thing to look at for that is if a unit fires against that target with a weapon that Gets Hot, they will overheat on a roll of 1-3.

This rule does not need to be changed.

1b. Intervening cover, if shots are fired at BS 3+ but only hits on 4+ because of cover from an intervening unit, all 3's to hit will hit the intervening unit friend or foe.
Needless complication.  Also removes a tactical element from the game where I might want to charge a closer, almost dead unit to claim an objective; but now won't risk shooting the imminent ranged threat behind them because of fear of randomly hitting the guys in between.

This rule does not need to be added.

2. Re-roll '1's will be changed to +1, full re-roll will change into +2. These allows for automatic to hit & to wound.
Space Marine characters auto hit, and Chapter Masters make surrounding units auto hit.  Absolutely terrible idea.

This rule does not need to be changed.

3. Advance moves are M/2 instead of D6, charge range equals M and overwatch is +2 to hit (to compensate). Re-rollers get +1 to advance and +2 instead respectively.
  So bikes can advance 28", and Iron Hand Aggressors can hit on 2+ when overwatching.

Also, what you describe was WHFB up to 7th edition, where the game was people dancing back and forth just beyond charge range waiting for someone to make a mistake first.

This rule does not need to be changed.

4. Command points will not be used for stratagems instead the number of command points dictates how many objective cards you can achieve during the game.
So my Custodians with a single Battalion can only achieve 8 objectives, but an Imperial Guard player can achieve 16 because they can easily fill a Brigade and then some?

Also, stratagems are just free now?  Yeah... that's a terrible idea.

5. Replace D6 with 4 for number of shots and/or damage and replace D3 with 2, this also applies to victory points, so 3+D3 VP is always 5VP for example.
Furthermore 2d6 becomes 7, meltas and similar that roll 2D6 and pick highest becomes flat 6.
This is the only suggestion you have made that has been somewhat picked up by the community.  There were some tournaments that ran this idea, but it was only for the VP total for objectives.  Frankly, I would much rather have the variable chances as opposed to just taking the average.

Reading through these suggestions, I honestly wonder when was the last time you played a game?  Because the majority of these are not needed in the slightest.

Yes, it makes sense, but other to hit modifiers would need to be examined. Eldar being -2 to hit being in cover would cause al sorts of people to cry lol.
Alaitoc Rangers in cover... innate -3 to hit.  Vindicare Assassin... -3 to hit.

If the armies are rebalanced to take stratagems out of the picture then yes. Some armies really need their strats to do work.
Thus making it more than just a minor change and, in fact, causing a complete redesign of the game.

Bring back scatter on Deep strikes style entries and give _some_ assault units the ability to charge from DS. Having the chance to scatter into terrain and loose models/entire unit. Uber move, uber risk.
If there was anything in previous editions that caused excessive arguments and debates in a game of Warhammer... it was the scatter die.  It is the only time I have seen people roll a die right beside a target, and then still be off in how they interpret the arrow by several degrees... usually in their favour.

The best thing GW ever did was get rid of that die!
 
Drop stratagems and balance the armies to make up for it.
I disagree big time on this.  Stratagems give a cool, fluffy buff to an army that allows the units to fight in a way that is appropriate to their fluff.

Have counters to special rules, such as Feel No Pain vs power weapons.

Make re-rolls rare.
  There's nothing wrong with the amount of rerolls in the game now.  I would prefer if they got rid of the whole "re-roll before modifier" thing, but that's beside the point.

Armour modifiers make it too easy to kill stuff, which makes marine feel, meh. Return to the old AP system.
As someone who plays heavily armoured, elite armies... I think this is a bad idea.  Custodians and Terminators being virtually impervious to Battle Cannons has never made sense to me.  Yeah, it's easier to kill things, but tough units can still be hard to kill.  This was one of the best changes GW made.



Remove allies (for games under 2,500 points), your entire army must be from the same subfaction, as in all from a single craftworld, all from a single space marine chapter, etc. The whole thing of 3 or 4 craftworlds combining for a piddle skirmish is nuts.
Ynnari, would be able to mix and match, cross race transports allowed except for obvious OP cross over like Dark Reapers in a raider.
This is actually the direction the recent releases are going.  You can still take combined lists, but you lose out on HUGE bonuses if you do so!

Saying people can't play with what they want unless they get to large game sizes is ridiculous.  This would also essentially mean that certain units can not be taken.  Assassins and Sisters of Silence, for example, can only ever be taken as allies in armies.  By implementing this rule, you would be saying that they can not be taken unless you are playing at 2500pts, which is 500pts beyond what most major tournaments are at.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Random core rules changes suggestions
« Reply #3 on: November 1, 2019, 07:39:48 AM »
Thank you for your input. I think some changes and clarification is in order.

1. The to hit modifiers or possible all modifiers can be capped between -2 & +2.
Also cover should only be gained if you are shot from outside 12". With re-rolls becoming +2 this cap would often be reached.

1b. It's a bit complicated but some units could get a boost to this in the "look out sir" spirit. I'm thinking grots and drones primarily. I don't think this is more complicated than re-rolls or split fire.

2. Space marines are basically autohitting anyway, re-rolling 2+ to hit is just tedious, since only 1/36 will miss. It also removes the use of tipping the dice. (instead of rolling) Sure hitting on 3+ with re-roll makes 1/9 miss and that is where the D6 system is flawed.
'1' is always a failure demands '6' is always a hit, which I think is bad. Sometimes it should simply be better to advance, and some sharpshooters basically never miss. Always have a chance to wound and always have a chance to fail wounding is enough for me.

3. Fixed charge distance is what I'm after, since you have a fixed range on ranged weapons. I guess the M/2 was not thoughroughly thought through, a flat 3" for infantry and a flat 6" for faster stuff could be better, but I still think the M stat could be used. 0.5" would be rounded up to 1". I also do not think keywords should dictate how far you advance. M/2 should be fine for infantry.
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So bikes can advance 28", and Iron Hand Aggressors can hit on 2+ when overwatching.
What bikes have a movement stat of 56" so they can advance 28"?
If aggressors already hit on 4+ on overwatch something is wrong and the Iron hands are ridiculously broken. Capping the bonus to hit to +2 max would also solve this, but if we can lose the overwatch rule in it's entirety I would be fine with it. It breaks the IGOUGO which can be debated if it's good or bad but having a mixture is IMO the worst.
Tau would be devastated, so it's currently probably not doable.

The problem with fixed range is so many units rely on the current random range, no-one would try to make a 9" charge as their range is only 8" and suffer overwatch.
Maybe the lowered charge range (from 2D6 to M) is enough to remove overwatch entirely (except for tau)?

4. Command points are the main perpetrator of unbalance, armies that rely on them are not fun to play against anyway.
Perhaps you could still use command points but this would hamper your ability to gain VP's.
Having command points separate from missions is currently very flawed.
Command points can be fun in narrative games, but those games should not be restricted to stratagems IMHO, instead let the imagination flow.

5. Normal guns don't need to be as random as they are IMO, especially short ranged like meltas.
Grenades and flamers having randomness could still be a thing, maybe 2D6-2 autohits up to the maximum number of models in range, allowing snake eyes to be a full miss.







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