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Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Heroic Intervention
« on: May 23, 2019, 10:52:18 AM »
So I  was watching a battle report, where Unit A) charges Unit B) and a Character heroically intervened. Unit A) then attacked the character in the fight phase.

Page 182 of the book, states that a unit that charged can only attack the unit it charged. Therefore the Heroically intervening character would be an illegible target?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 12:50:31 PM by Gal'rgae Neverborne »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2019, 10:55:32 AM »
It seems fairly clear to me that the Heroically Intervening hero *should* be an eligible target, but as far as I can tell your reading of the rules is technically correct. I could be missing something, though.

I can't *imagine* being a big enough tool to make an argument that my character wasn't eligible, though.

Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2019, 12:29:27 PM »
Possibly rules as written vs rules as intended. I have been tool enough to do pull this, I've even used it as a deliberate trap; works great with things that always strike 1st.

To me it seemed along the same lines of not being able to pile into a new unit and target them.- or do you allow this?

I wonder how this would effect "may fight again stratagems"

This is a game where a lot of things don't make sense but are just a part of the mechanics.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2019, 12:32:26 PM by Gal'rgae Neverborne »

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2019, 01:11:18 PM »
Page 182 of the book, states that a unit that charged can only attack the unit it charged. Therefore the Heroically intervening character would be an illegible target?
This is the correct way it should be played.

The two most common mistakes I see with the game these days is attacking a unit you didn't declare a charge against, and re-rolls with modifiers.

It seems fairly clear to me that the Heroically Intervening hero *should* be an eligible target, but as far as I can tell your reading of the rules is technically correct. I could be missing something, though.

I can't *imagine* being a big enough tool to make an argument that my character wasn't eligible, though.
It's not really being a tool when the rules are clear as to how combat works.  Unlike previous editions where you must move if at all possible to engage every unit that you declare a charge against, this edition allows you to declare a charge against everything within range and move to engage which ever you so choose.

Where that makes a difference is when characters Heroically Intervene, and when you consolidate into a fresh unit after wiping another out to use a stratagem that allows you to attack again.

If this rule were not the case, then that would allow the Eversor to charge a small unit; wipe it out; consolidate twice as far as normal; and attack a second, larger, more important shooting unit; and fight again without allowing a chance for them to overwatch.

It's important to get out of the mindset that we had in previous editions because things don't work the way they used to.
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Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2019, 01:20:11 PM »
Page 182 of the book, states that a unit that charged can only attack the unit it charged. Therefore the Heroically intervening character would be an illegible target?
This is the correct way it should be played.

The two most common mistakes I see with the game these days is attacking a unit you didn't declare a charge against, and re-rolls with modifiers.


Glad to agree with you.

How do you work with Units that may fight again using the 3 CP stratagem that's in a lot of codexs?

In Online taticas i see this as a suggestion by people Like D6 as a guide on how to break gunlines, but would they still be compelled to only fight the unit they charged last turn?

The rules do say "In the previous phase" as this is at the "end of the fight phase" the previous phase could be the charge phase - in which case would be illegal to target a new unit, it could be the fight phase; so it's okay. Bearing in mind this is a 3 CP strat!

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2019, 01:51:30 PM »
Those "end of fight phase" things happen after consolidation, so you just get to select them *again* to fight after you've consolidated after the last fight. This includes pile-in and so on.

And I'm afraid I'm not quite following your Eversor example above, GML, vis-a-vis Heroic Intervention.

HI happens at the *start* of the fight phase (and no other time) so there's no way and Eversor could use it more than once. Then, sure, it could use a strat to let it fight again, but none of that has anything to do with whether anyone *in* the combat could target the Eversor with their attacks when it HI-ed into them.

If I have a unit that charges your unit, then your character slams into the combat, it seems obvious that my unit *should* be able to split its attacks among all eligible targets now engaged with it. That just seems silly and a clear oversight.

Now, the rules do say what they say, and I suppose the easiest way to handle this is just declare an assault on the random characters standing around, anyway (almost no reason not to), but it strikes me as not something so much designed as clearly unintentional. 

Offline Partninja

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2019, 03:02:25 PM »
Rules as written you have it correct. If your character HI's in the enemy unit that charged can't attack him. I do agree that it doesn't make logical sense that the character can't be attacked. If it's close enough to melee it should be close enough to get hit.

The pro is it does allow you to protect your characters better and actually be able to fight with them. Otherwise they get a lot of attacks thrown at them and they never get to swing.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2019, 03:27:51 PM »
Wyddr, my eversor example isn't if he Heroically Intervenes, but if he is the charging unit. It also answers the question of how to handle the attack twice stratagems.

Basically, if you want to attack a unit on the turn you charge, you give them the chance to fire overwatch.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2019, 04:22:12 PM »
Typically characters have pretty weak shooting, so declaring them as additional charge targets when they will have the ability to Heroic Intervention is the right move. The overwatch won't kill much.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2019, 04:33:43 PM »
... but it strikes me as not something so much designed as clearly unintentional.
I would say that it was designed to work exactly like that for the simple reason that, if it wasn't, it would have been fixed in an errata that they release twice a year.  It hasn't been changed, or even addressed.
In Online taticas i see this as a suggestion by people Like D6 as a guide on how to break gunlines, but would they still be compelled to only fight the unit they charged last turn?

The rules do say "In the previous phase" as this is at the "end of the fight phase" the previous phase could be the charge phase - in which case would be illegal to target a new unit, it could be the fight phase; so it's okay. Bearing in mind this is a 3 CP strat!
It has to be an eligible unit for you to attack.  If you are trying to attack two separate units by utilizing the fight again strats, then you must have declared them as a target to charge.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

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"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Gal'rgae Neverborne

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2019, 05:20:34 PM »

In Online taticas i see this as a suggestion by people Like D6 as a guide on how to break gunlines, but would they still be compelled to only fight the unit they charged last turn?

The rules do say "In the previous phase" as this is at the "end of the fight phase" the previous phase could be the charge phase - in which case would be illegal to target a new unit, it could be the fight phase; so it's okay. Bearing in mind this is a 3 CP strat!
It has to be an eligible unit for you to attack.  If you are trying to attack two separate units by utilizing the fight again strats, then you must have declared them as a target to charge.
[/quote]

It goes further than this GML, the wording is "Charged" a declaration is not enough. If this is correct (and I expect it is), you need to be within 1" after your charge move.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2019, 06:03:23 PM »
Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 FAQ; page 5
Remember though that units that charged can only make close
combat attacks against units that they declared the charge
against, even if pile-in moves, etc. bring them within 1" of a
different unit.

I can't be bothered to dig through the rules to find the exact reference, but this bit in the faq verifies my point.
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I knew I had fans!!!

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Heroic Intervention
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2019, 09:21:55 AM »
Huh.

Well, guess we've been playing this one wrong. Will have to amend.

 


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