flood

News:

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)  (Read 76 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2798
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« on: October 13, 2018, 10:59:59 AM »
I've been discussing with people from various places on how to make Overlords more competitive and varied.  Because one thing we all agree on is that the Barak-Zilfin clown car list is getting so boring and overplayed.  ;D

What's wrong with the Overlords I hear you ask?  In a nutshell, with the exception of Endrinriggers and the Aether Khemist, and to a lesser extent the Admiral and Endrinmaster, nothing they have function the way they probably should be functioning.  The ships are too slow and too vulnerable.  Way too vulnerable.  And with poor damage output to boot.  The frigate, which should be a mainstay of the list imo, is at present nothing more than an overpriced Rhino but without it's reputation for toughness.  Arkanauts are nothing but skyhook delivery systems.  Skywardens and Thunderers?  Don't bother.  And as for the Aetheric Navigator and Grunstok Gunhauler?..forget about it.  :P

Let's look at the Frigate for starters.  In terms of its durability, it's a moderately sized unit of light infantry without the ability to take cover.  Armed only with a short ranged and inaccurate artillery weapon, a couple of handgun equivalents, and a non existent melee attack too.  Oh, and it's quite slow.  If you want to go fast you gotta skip all your shooting.  Poo.  :P

Now me, I think it should be the equivalent of a small unit of typical heavy cavalry in terms of durability.  Think Mighty Skullcrushers or Gore Gruntas.  It should be able to take a bit of a battering before it comes crashing down.  And as it's also an artillery weapon, it should have an artillery weapons range.  And assaulting it should be a serious undertaking, like storming a castle...or a small fort at least.  So how about this:

- Pump its save up to 4+
- Increase it's Wounds Characteristic to 16.
- Make Tireless Endrinrigger automatic rather than 4+ only. 
- Boost the range of the Heavy Sky Cannon and Heavy Skyhook up to 32".
- Increase the Attack characteristic of its Belaying Valves to 4.
- Change Skymines so that any results of a 6 inflict a one off D3 mortal wounds result, as if it was deadly terrain.
- Make Aetheric Navigation "automatic" (as in it doesn't require a separate model to go off.  It just happens.  That navigator in the Endrin should be doing something.  ;))

Now the Frigate is a tough, fast, durable tank unit that can reach out far with it's weaponry, and can hopefully make units of single model fliers (like monsters) think twice before attacking it too.  It now matches how a big warship should be in a fight imo, and you could comfortably build a list around them too.

Obviously the Ironclad and Gunhaulers need work too, and a lot of would be the same.  For the former, I would:

- Increase the Wounds Characteristic to 20.
- Again, make Tireless Endrinrigger automatic.
- Boost the range of the Great Sky Cannon and Great Skyhook to 40".
- Increase the Attack characteristic of its Belying Valves to 8.
- Increase the Rend of Aetherstrike Torpedoes to -2.
- Automatic Aetheric Navigation too.

I know that some suggest bumping it's save up to 3+, but I'm not sure about that to be honest.  Not without increasing it's cost.  4+ with that many wounds and auto healing 1 wound a turn is durable enough imo.  Also, I would rework the Flagship rule to make it more useful overall. 

For the Gunhauler, the worst ship of them all, and supposedly a fast moving fighter plane of sorts (a fighter boat?), I would:

- Increase it's Movement to 14".
- Increase it's Save to 4+.
- Give it the ability to Retreat and Shoot in the same turn. 

Now it is a very fast Hit and Run unit that can zoom around the board in 'strafing runs'.  Like our version of light cavalry.  And yet still tough, like an armoured warship should be.

Oh, and you know the three ship orders?  Batten The Hatches, All Hands To The Guns and Ahead Full?  Make them ubiquitous to all three ships.  There's no reason they shouldn't be.

Finally, the bomb racks need reworking too imo, but that's a whole other issue and I don't know how to do it.

But anyway, what do you guys think of these changes?  Too much?  Not much enough?  ;D

Offline Killersquid

  • The Cause of Diabetes -Captain- Necrontyr Immortal - KoN Veteran - Master of All Diplomacy | Wi-Fi Nomad |
  • Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8479
  • Country: ca
    • My Website
  • Armies: Harlequins, Iron Warriors, Khorne Bloodbound
Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 11:14:06 AM »
I don't think that the warscrolls need to be changed. I think points adjustments will make them better much more easily.

I think the stats of each is fine. The Frigate and Ironclad are both suitably tough. I've fought Kharadron with my Flesh Eaters and Skyre, and those ships have been a hurdle to get through.

They are mainly there as transports, which they do a great job of, and a hefty allotment of their points is based on that. Also, I think that them, and the infantry, are still pointed rather high, due to kharadron clown car lists tableing people t1 at tournaments in AoS 1.

The biggest issue with the kharadrons, is that all of their units fufil the same role. It's a 40k army in AoS, and AoS is not a shooting game. Shooting, just overall, is not going to win you games, and kharadron don't really have the tools to create screens or fight in melee as well.

Harlequin Army Blog

That's not blatant, this is blatant: I'm super happy that I'm playing Austria, the greatest nation in all of Diplomacy!

Azore of Austria

Offline Calamity

  • Concussor Concussed Dice | Captain
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2798
  • Country: gb
  • Cocking up miniatures since 1998
  • Armies: Kharadron Overlords, Bloodbound, Celestial Lions
Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2018, 10:22:39 AM »
Points adjustments would be the easiest way to make them competitive.  But imo, as their stats currently stand, they would have to have quite a drastic reduction in price to make them viable.  60pts in the case of the Frigate.

I've never played against either the FEC or the 'Slayers, so I can't really commit on their performance, but all the other games I've played in, against Stormcast, Ironjawz, Slaves To Darkness, Seraphon, Disciples Of Tzeentch, Daughters Of Khaine, Nighthaunt etc. have really shown up the ships inadequacies.  They're too slow, and as their range is so short for what are supposedly artillery weapons, they always get caught and destroyed by fast moving hard hitters.  It's unavoidable.  They can't fight in melee, and they aren't tough enough to withstand more than one round of fighting.  In the worst example, I had a single Mawcrusha take down 3 ships by itself.  In other example, warpstone boasted Poisoned Wind Mortars inflicted 30 wounds on my Ironcad in one round of shooting, instantly destroying it. 

As for your last point, you're right.  All of our units are more or less the same, and we can't create screens or fight it out in melee because again, our ships are too weak.  The ships should be the screen and the tarpits, but they can't do this at present as they're not tough enough.  Hence my suggestions.

And the Navigator, I've got ideas for him too, based on what the Deepkin can do.  If Aetheric Navigation is automatic, what else can they do?  How about the ability to grant Outflank to the ship that they begin the game embarked upon.  Also, if he reads the wind, how about all visible ships move D6" instead of D3" when using the AN?  And if he conjures up a storm, enemy fliers within 18" can't charge or run in addition to moving at half rate.  Then the effect would actually slow them down and thus be worth casting.  :P

Offline Killersquid

  • The Cause of Diabetes -Captain- Necrontyr Immortal - KoN Veteran - Master of All Diplomacy | Wi-Fi Nomad |
  • Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8479
  • Country: ca
    • My Website
  • Armies: Harlequins, Iron Warriors, Khorne Bloodbound
Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2018, 11:48:52 AM »
I still don't think the issue is with the ships.

They should not be getting into combat. If they are in combat, they die. I don't think their role should be combat tanks either. They are deployment mechanisms for the slower infantry.

They did get points drops in the latest handbook, which I think is great for the Frigate, which I like a lot. The ironclad too.

I really don't like speculatively changing how warscrolls work, I think that's very messy. The warscrolls for all three ships are fine. Points adjustments is all they need, but I don't think it needs to be drastic, as I think a lot of the ko line needs points drops anyway.

However, the Arkanughts are one of the best infantry units in order imo. A unit with three skyhooks is very good, as three as battleline I like. Thunderers with rifles are also a phenomenal unit.

For their weakness, all factions need those. You can shore those up with allies. A block or two of dispossessed warriors would be a fantastic block of cheaper infantry to tie folks up.

For your examples, mawcrushers kill everything in melee, you just gotta not get charged by them :-), for the poisioned wind mortars, unless he had 5 of them, and the rolled extremely well for his damage, (all 6's), there isn't anyway they could do 30 wounds in a turn.

I also don't think the clown car is the way to play, but I do think the army has legs. I don't have the book anymore, and I don't play them, but I have seen them do well. You have speed, so you should be playing the objectives game. Losses are fine, and being tabled in fine, as long as you can outscored your opponent.
Harlequin Army Blog

That's not blatant, this is blatant: I'm super happy that I'm playing Austria, the greatest nation in all of Diplomacy!

Azore of Austria

 


Powered by EzPortal