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Author Topic: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)  (Read 297 times)

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Offline Calamity

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Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« on: October 13, 2018, 10:59:59 AM »
I've been discussing with people from various places on how to make Overlords more competitive and varied.  Because one thing we all agree on is that the Barak-Zilfin clown car list is getting so boring and overplayed.  ;D

What's wrong with the Overlords I hear you ask?  In a nutshell, with the exception of Endrinriggers and the Aether Khemist, and to a lesser extent the Admiral and Endrinmaster, nothing they have function the way they probably should be functioning.  The ships are too slow and too vulnerable.  Way too vulnerable.  And with poor damage output to boot.  The frigate, which should be a mainstay of the list imo, is at present nothing more than an overpriced Rhino but without it's reputation for toughness.  Arkanauts are nothing but skyhook delivery systems.  Skywardens and Thunderers?  Don't bother.  And as for the Aetheric Navigator and Grunstok Gunhauler?..forget about it.  :P

Let's look at the Frigate for starters.  In terms of its durability, it's a moderately sized unit of light infantry without the ability to take cover.  Armed only with a short ranged and inaccurate artillery weapon, a couple of handgun equivalents, and a non existent melee attack too.  Oh, and it's quite slow.  If you want to go fast you gotta skip all your shooting.  Poo.  :P

Now me, I think it should be the equivalent of a small unit of typical heavy cavalry in terms of durability.  Think Mighty Skullcrushers or Gore Gruntas.  It should be able to take a bit of a battering before it comes crashing down.  And as it's also an artillery weapon, it should have an artillery weapons range.  And assaulting it should be a serious undertaking, like storming a castle...or a small fort at least.  So how about this:

- Pump its save up to 4+
- Increase it's Wounds Characteristic to 16.
- Make Tireless Endrinrigger automatic rather than 4+ only. 
- Boost the range of the Heavy Sky Cannon and Heavy Skyhook up to 32".
- Increase the Attack characteristic of its Belaying Valves to 4.
- Change Skymines so that any results of a 6 inflict a one off D3 mortal wounds result, as if it was deadly terrain.
- Make Aetheric Navigation "automatic" (as in it doesn't require a separate model to go off.  It just happens.  That navigator in the Endrin should be doing something.  ;))

Now the Frigate is a tough, fast, durable tank unit that can reach out far with it's weaponry, and can hopefully make units of single model fliers (like monsters) think twice before attacking it too.  It now matches how a big warship should be in a fight imo, and you could comfortably build a list around them too.

Obviously the Ironclad and Gunhaulers need work too, and a lot of would be the same.  For the former, I would:

- Increase the Wounds Characteristic to 20.
- Again, make Tireless Endrinrigger automatic.
- Boost the range of the Great Sky Cannon and Great Skyhook to 40".
- Increase the Attack characteristic of its Belying Valves to 8.
- Increase the Rend of Aetherstrike Torpedoes to -2.
- Automatic Aetheric Navigation too.

I know that some suggest bumping it's save up to 3+, but I'm not sure about that to be honest.  Not without increasing it's cost.  4+ with that many wounds and auto healing 1 wound a turn is durable enough imo.  Also, I would rework the Flagship rule to make it more useful overall. 

For the Gunhauler, the worst ship of them all, and supposedly a fast moving fighter plane of sorts (a fighter boat?), I would:

- Increase it's Movement to 14".
- Increase it's Save to 4+.
- Give it the ability to Retreat and Shoot in the same turn. 

Now it is a very fast Hit and Run unit that can zoom around the board in 'strafing runs'.  Like our version of light cavalry.  And yet still tough, like an armoured warship should be.

Oh, and you know the three ship orders?  Batten The Hatches, All Hands To The Guns and Ahead Full?  Make them ubiquitous to all three ships.  There's no reason they shouldn't be.

Finally, the bomb racks need reworking too imo, but that's a whole other issue and I don't know how to do it.

But anyway, what do you guys think of these changes?  Too much?  Not much enough?  ;D

Offline Killersquid

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Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2018, 11:14:06 AM »
I don't think that the warscrolls need to be changed. I think points adjustments will make them better much more easily.

I think the stats of each is fine. The Frigate and Ironclad are both suitably tough. I've fought Kharadron with my Flesh Eaters and Skyre, and those ships have been a hurdle to get through.

They are mainly there as transports, which they do a great job of, and a hefty allotment of their points is based on that. Also, I think that them, and the infantry, are still pointed rather high, due to kharadron clown car lists tableing people t1 at tournaments in AoS 1.

The biggest issue with the kharadrons, is that all of their units fufil the same role. It's a 40k army in AoS, and AoS is not a shooting game. Shooting, just overall, is not going to win you games, and kharadron don't really have the tools to create screens or fight in melee as well.

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Offline Calamity

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Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2018, 10:22:39 AM »
Points adjustments would be the easiest way to make them competitive.  But imo, as their stats currently stand, they would have to have quite a drastic reduction in price to make them viable.  60pts in the case of the Frigate.

I've never played against either the FEC or the 'Slayers, so I can't really commit on their performance, but all the other games I've played in, against Stormcast, Ironjawz, Slaves To Darkness, Seraphon, Disciples Of Tzeentch, Daughters Of Khaine, Nighthaunt etc. have really shown up the ships inadequacies.  They're too slow, and as their range is so short for what are supposedly artillery weapons, they always get caught and destroyed by fast moving hard hitters.  It's unavoidable.  They can't fight in melee, and they aren't tough enough to withstand more than one round of fighting.  In the worst example, I had a single Mawcrusha take down 3 ships by itself.  In other example, warpstone boasted Poisoned Wind Mortars inflicted 30 wounds on my Ironcad in one round of shooting, instantly destroying it. 

As for your last point, you're right.  All of our units are more or less the same, and we can't create screens or fight it out in melee because again, our ships are too weak.  The ships should be the screen and the tarpits, but they can't do this at present as they're not tough enough.  Hence my suggestions.

And the Navigator, I've got ideas for him too, based on what the Deepkin can do.  If Aetheric Navigation is automatic, what else can they do?  How about the ability to grant Outflank to the ship that they begin the game embarked upon.  Also, if he reads the wind, how about all visible ships move D6" instead of D3" when using the AN?  And if he conjures up a storm, enemy fliers within 18" can't charge or run in addition to moving at half rate.  Then the effect would actually slow them down and thus be worth casting.  :P

Offline Killersquid

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Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2018, 11:48:52 AM »
I still don't think the issue is with the ships.

They should not be getting into combat. If they are in combat, they die. I don't think their role should be combat tanks either. They are deployment mechanisms for the slower infantry.

They did get points drops in the latest handbook, which I think is great for the Frigate, which I like a lot. The ironclad too.

I really don't like speculatively changing how warscrolls work, I think that's very messy. The warscrolls for all three ships are fine. Points adjustments is all they need, but I don't think it needs to be drastic, as I think a lot of the ko line needs points drops anyway.

However, the Arkanughts are one of the best infantry units in order imo. A unit with three skyhooks is very good, as three as battleline I like. Thunderers with rifles are also a phenomenal unit.

For their weakness, all factions need those. You can shore those up with allies. A block or two of dispossessed warriors would be a fantastic block of cheaper infantry to tie folks up.

For your examples, mawcrushers kill everything in melee, you just gotta not get charged by them :-), for the poisioned wind mortars, unless he had 5 of them, and the rolled extremely well for his damage, (all 6's), there isn't anyway they could do 30 wounds in a turn.

I also don't think the clown car is the way to play, but I do think the army has legs. I don't have the book anymore, and I don't play them, but I have seen them do well. You have speed, so you should be playing the objectives game. Losses are fine, and being tabled in fine, as long as you can outscored your opponent.
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Offline Calamity

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Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2018, 06:56:10 PM »
Like I said, he was using these ‘warpstone token’ things that doubled damage results.  Then he proceeded to roll three 5s.  Even that would have been devastating without the double damage.   

Also, tonight I played against Seraphon and I was tabled by turn 3.  Riperdactyals again.  They are.....they need looked at.  Seriously.  But one observation...my frigate would have survived the initial assault had it possessed a 4+ save.  Just saying.  ;)

Assuming all the warscrolls were left as they currently are, then I say the ships will need drastic price reductions.  I’m talking close to half price.

Offline Killersquid

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Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2018, 09:50:01 AM »
Yeah, so the skaven guy wasn't using the proper rules for the tokens.

First of all, you can't use more than one token per phase, and in the 2018 handbook it only adds +1 damage, doesn't double it. He shouldn't have been able to kill your ship in one turn.

Ripperdactlys were also FAQ'd when AoS 2 came out, which drastically reduced their effectiveness.

I strongly recommend making sure folks are playing with the proper updated rules, that might help things.


It's a curcular argument, but GW is not going to update warscrolls without a new book. Until then, there will only be points changes, so that'll be what we see. I do expect non-summoning armies to get a further price drop in the next Generals Handbook, or perhaps in the winter big FAQ, but we'll have to wait and see.


Until then, as someone who also plays an underpowered faction, just keep trying and working on your list. Also, don't discount the value of allies. I've been playing the same list for four months, and it's given me great insight into my army. You just have to play cagey, play for the mission, and learn from every defeat. 

I'm not sure how you're playing, or what your list is, but I am surprised to hear your ships are getting into combat so often.

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Offline Calamity

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Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2018, 12:50:42 PM »
Yeah, so the skaven guy wasn't using the proper rules for the tokens.

First of all, you can't use more than one token per phase, and in the 2018 handbook it only adds +1 damage, doesn't double it. He shouldn't have been able to kill your ship in one turn.

That's...annoying.  :P  This was under the 2017 book though.  Maybe things were different then? 

Ripperdactlys were also FAQ'd when AoS 2 came out, which drastically reduced their effectiveness.

Small comfort when a unit of 6 only costs 280pts, can deepstrike to within easy charging distance of you, and still inflicts 50+ wounds on you.  :P

I strongly recommend making sure folks are playing with the proper updated rules, that might help things.

That would help yes.  ;) ;D

It's a curcular argument, but GW is not going to update warscrolls without a new book. Until then, there will only be points changes, so that'll be what we see. I do expect non-summoning armies to get a further price drop in the next Generals Handbook, or perhaps in the winter big FAQ, but we'll have to wait and see.

I would hope so.  If the scrolls aren't being touched, and they can't change what's battle line, then points drops are the only thing left, and as it currently stands they would have to have some serious reductions. 

Until then, as someone who also plays an underpowered faction, just keep trying and working on your list. Also, don't discount the value of allies. I've been playing the same list for four months, and it's given me great insight into my army. You just have to play cagey, play for the mission, and learn from every defeat.

Yep, certainly trying.  I just got a Knight-Incantor for starters.  And I take every lesson I learnt from the previous game forward, but of course the mission changes, and it's a different opponent with a different army and so on and so forth...

I'm not sure how you're playing, or what your list is, but I am surprised to hear your ships are getting into combat so often.

It's usually down to either deepstriking, or the opponent literally shrugging off everything I throw at them while barreling towards me.  I don't know how your games go but ours involve very rapid movement. 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on some things here Squid.  ;D  You think they're fine, but I strongly believe that the Overlords have some serious flaws inherent in their rules that are pretty much destroying their ability to play in all but the friendliest of match ups. 

I've played against Stormcast, Ironjawz, Mixed Order, Mixed Destruction, Slaves To Darkness, Clan Pestilence, Clan Skyre, Nighthaunt, Tzeentch, Daughters Of Khaine and others...and in almost every game it was pretty much over by turn 1.  Take it from me, Overlords are in a bad way.  :P
« Last Edit: October 20, 2018, 01:07:58 PM by Calamity »

Offline Killersquid

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Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2018, 08:50:47 PM »
I'm not disagreeing that overlords need help, but I do think that points drops would do a lot of work on its own. It's just too easy to wish-list on changes to warscrolls, which probably won't happen. But, points changes are realistic things to expect, and gw is putting in care to every faction to try and make the points work. They just didn't go far enough this time with the overlords lol.

Their battleline unit is fantastic. It'd be cool of skywardens could become battleline somehow too. Maybe if they had a new balloon hero you could take as general.

Their names character is a bit of a beat-stick himself, although quite expensive. Have you had a chance to try him?

My Skyre are in a similar boat, where we need work as well. I've been basically getting my dick kicked in by tougher books, but learning in each game, and reflecting on mistakes I make. I have managed to pull off wins against armies I've had no reason to win against, though extremely cagey play, and obsessively focusing on the primary objective.

I know how you feel though. I've maxed out my allies slots filling in gaps my allegence lacks (cheap bodies).


If you do take the knight incantor, I can't recommend enough the Stormcast comet endless spell, that thing is absolutely brutal.
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Offline Calamity

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Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2018, 11:26:37 AM »
I'm not disagreeing that overlords need help, but I do think that points drops would do a lot of work on its own. It's just too easy to wish-list on changes to warscrolls, which probably won't happen. But, points changes are realistic things to expect, and gw is putting in care to every faction to try and make the points work. They just didn't go far enough this time with the overlords lol.

Point drops would help certainly.  As it stands, I'd slash the cost of the ships in half.  Really.  Especially when I see what other factions cost, and what they can bring to the table for that cost.  Gunhauler: 80pts.  Frigate: 120pts.  Ironclad: 240pts.  At these prices, you could actually afford the Battalions the Overlords have.  This is a big issue I encounter.  Everyone else can take at least 1 battalion in a 2k list whilst remaining competitive.  We can't. 

Their battleline unit is fantastic. It'd be cool of skywardens could become battleline somehow too. Maybe if they had a new balloon hero you could take as general.


Batteline if your army has the Overlord Allegiance would be a good way to go.

Their names character is a bit of a beat-stick himself, although quite expensive. Have you had a chance to try him?

I have not, no.  But I have heard good things about him.

My Skyre are in a similar boat, where we need work as well. I've been basically getting my dick kicked in by tougher books, but learning in each game, and reflecting on mistakes I make. I have managed to pull off wins against armies I've had no reason to win against, though extremely cagey play, and obsessively focusing on the primary objective.

I know how you feel though. I've maxed out my allies slots filling in gaps my allegence lacks (cheap bodies).


If you do take the knight incantor, I can't recommend enough the Stormcast comet endless spell, that thing is absolutely brutal.

Allies would help, but I wish that every faction had the strength to stand on their own two feet.

I still maintain that the warscrolls need looked at again.  As do a lot of things in the army.  Point adjustments can cover the gap for the time being but the Overlords need a new book with new unit profiles. 

Offline Killersquid

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Re: Fixing Kharadron Overlords (starting with the ships)
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2018, 08:33:16 AM »
I don't disagree that the army need help. I was listening to the Honest Wargamer podcast yesterday, and one of the regular hosts has been doing well with Kharadron, but he only takes one Frigate. Along with three units of Skyhook arkanaughts and thunderers with 3 Khemists. Mostly, he just shoots the crap out of people.

The army just needs better internal balance and diversity.



For the Skyre thing, It's been once per phase in 2017 as well. Your Skyre buddy has been cheating a wee bit from the sounds of things lol. I should know, I play Skyre. I've also stopped taking Battalions in my army, as it's just too expensive.


Have you been playing in the realms/ using terrain rules? I find that those add a lot to the game.
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