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Offline Dread

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Kill team...really?!
« on: August 1, 2018, 11:45:37 PM »
I've waited and waited for a chance to finally bring my old team back to the table. It was banshees, scorpions and a lone reaper. ??? And again I'm disappointed. When will we get a real kill team again?

Anyhow, if you're playing, how would you fill your team?
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #1 on: August 2, 2018, 12:50:39 AM »
I gave it a try with a DA Exarch, a ranger, a DA, a platform, and guardians. Seemed to work out ok. DA Ex isn't that great in Melee even with a weapon, so it's tough to deal with close combat. Running him with yep two guns may be the way to go.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #2 on: August 2, 2018, 02:16:38 AM »
@Dread

Agree with you 100%. Under the current rules, Kill Team is pretty much non-existant for the Craftworlds.
Our Troops on their own are all but helpless against any kind of Marines due to the combination of poor range and low durability. And I'm not even talking about severe lack of variety...
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #3 on: August 2, 2018, 11:24:03 AM »
Even with advancing Defenders and Avengers have a very short effective range. The table is smaller, and most  of the time you should have a -1 or -2 penalty to get hit so it might not be too bad. I agree compressor to the options other armies get the catapults seem pretty lack luster. Mostly because of the weapon range rules.

I'll be playing a few games this Sunday and my list will be:

Dire Avenger Exarch - 2x catapults
2x Dire Avengers
2x Storm Guardian Gunners - 2x Flamer
2x Rangers
2x Guardian Defenders
1x Heavy Weapon Platform - AML

Haven't really decided on my specialists yet. Took a spattering of things to see how they work out.

My Necron and Scion killteams look way better on paper though.

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #4 on: August 2, 2018, 12:12:14 PM »
I think the emphasis on range shouldn't be too big an issue, as kill team is played on a table smaller then a realm of battle tile,and there should be lots of terrain.

Shuirken weapons are always good, as they are assault, and have bladestorm. Also, guardians are cheap.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #5 on: August 2, 2018, 04:42:35 PM »
The range is an issue due to the hit modifiers. The ranges at which they don't get a negative modifier puts them easily into assault ranges depending on the terrain you use. Thats my concern at least for Dire Avengers. Even a Bolter at Max rapid fire range can easily be safe from assault assuikg there are some terrain pieces in the way. Catapults need to get much closer and don't have the durability of marine. Granted, you can take two defenders for the cost of one marine. Just feels awkward to me having been so used to doing that dance with my Avengers.

Offline Dread

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #6 on: August 2, 2018, 10:59:41 PM »
I'm going to try and play this sunday too. I'm torn between my Eldar and harlis. I'm thinking something like what you posted ninja except dire sword and cat. Platform I'm thinking star cannon. Anyhow please post any results ya'll have and critiques as well.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #7 on: August 5, 2018, 05:51:53 PM »
So I ran the above list against an Ork Killteam. I also played my Necron Killteam against Deathwatch. Here are my notes from this experience.

1) Rangers with single shots aren't particularly good. Sure they ignore the long range penalty, but they're still getting a worse chance to hit most of them given proper terrain. Taking one as your Leader and hiding him in the back will make for a good and safe command point generator though. I suppose if you wanted to get more aggressive with them and fire their pistols, they're pretty hard to hit. They would need to get way too close to stuff to do anything else.

2) Flamers are pretty strong in Killteams. More so on models that can move pretty far. Even more so if you have a flamer with a better strength and armor piercing value (if still an assault weapon or a heavy specialist). It's very easy to get a -2 hit modifier from being obscured, having flesh wounds, or some other stealth tech. Flamers bypass all this and can throw a lot of dice. Better against non-MEQ. Always take two Storm Guardians with Flamers. I will. Veteran and Scout specialists are good here.

3)Heavy Weapon platforms are hit or miss. You can get decent range but it's still easy to miss. My AML put out a decent amount of shots and the plasma profile put out decent wounds. Worth taking one and making him the comms specialist.

4) Dire Avenger Exarch with two catapults is very points efficient. Always take one and use him aggressively to push an objective. Don't make him your leader though as you need to get too close to the enemy. I wouldn't take one set up for combat unless you take all storm guardians to back him up. Combats are kind of weird and it's easy to fail a charge given multi level terrain or if the opponent decides to retreat as their reaction...Too easy to take some flesh wounds on the way in as well making him worse in combat.

I did well given the Orks have poor armor saves although hitting the commandos was pretty difficult. Against an MEQ team, I only ever rolled one or two 6s to wound so I don't think they will be too good against a team with 3+ saves.
« Last Edit: August 5, 2018, 05:55:33 PM by Partninja »

Offline Dread

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #8 on: August 5, 2018, 11:22:11 PM »
Thanks for the tips ninja, really helpful. The leader tip is soooo useful, I hadn't thought about that. I didn't get to play today :-\
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Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #9 on: September 8, 2018, 09:57:18 PM »
I've waited and waited for a chance to finally bring my old team back to the table. It was banshees, scorpions and a lone reaper. ??? And again I'm disappointed. When will we get a real kill team again?

Anyhow, if you're playing, how would you fill your team?

I'm very disappointed with the Craftworld kill-team. Simply on flavour grounds, it makes no sense that an army of specialists, including specialist infiltrators and assassins, would have kill teams made up exclusively of line infantry and militia. Gamewise, for no terribly clear reason it also makes the Eldar one of the very few factions that doesn't have a single Elite option in its Kill-Team selection.

Scorpions and Spiders should certainly be available, even if the latter were limited in quantity. Warlocks (as a singleton) and Fire Dragons possibly should be, though maybe without Exarch options (I can't imagine a heavy flamer being an especially fair weapon in Kill-Team).

As it is I'll likely use Tau as my primary kill-team, but I've planned an Eldar list using two flamer Storms, an EML platform with Guardian crew, the default DA melee Exarch, and a couple of Rangers. Haven't played yet so I don't know if the diresword Exarch really is to be avoided, but you're trading off three ranged shots with +1 S for two melee attacks with more reliable AP and a chance at dealing extra mortal wounds. Without running the numbers I'd expect the results to be at least equivalent against most targets, with the added advantage that you get these attacks when engaged, without having to fall back.

Offline Partninja

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #10 on: September 8, 2018, 10:09:36 PM »
In my experience (about 20 games now) melee Exarch isn't worth it. Melee in general is pretty difficult in my experience. The Exarch is most efficient with two catapults. Rangers are pretty bad as you're still usually at at least -1 to hit and only have one shot that is only good on a lucky roll. Take one ranger as your leader and keep him way in the back. While I used the AML in many of my games, I've found the points better spent on another Dire Avenger or even two guardians. Gives you a more reliable number of shots and more bodies to run around and grab objectives.

Heavy Flamers (even normal Flamers honestly) are quite strong. Other armies have access so a Fire Dragon Exarch wouldn't be out of place. He'd be an auto-take model.

Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #11 on: September 9, 2018, 11:04:52 AM »
Thanks. I never like being completely without melee capability since I know I'm going to be subject to it eventually (he says while assembling a Tau kill team).

I agree that the double shuricat Exarch is most efficient - unless the melee options were substantially better he'd have to be, since he doesn't pay anything for having two shuricats and the diresword costs 2. But points efficiency isn't my only consideration: an Avenger Exarch who's engaged isn't using his weapons. One at long range is less likely to hit, and at short range anything can charge him (thanks to the +3" free charge distance everyone gets in Kill-Team).

The damage output per hit is about equal (1/6 less chance to wound for the diresword vs. T4 or less, but usually 1/6-1/3 greater chance to get through armour, disregarding 6s to wound - which are better for the diresword than the shuricat but in practice usually have the same result against 1 wound models unless the opponent has invulnerable saves) and that the number of attacks is close to equivalent (1 pistol shot + 2 attacks, essentially always on 3s, vs. 4 shots usually on 3s but sometimes on 4s). Given that, I prefer to use the more versatile option if I can spare the extra points (conveniently, losing Rangers can help there). I think the two are close enough that it comes down to preference - but this is entirely in respect of diresword vs. twin shuricat. I don't see any reason ever to take the power glaive.

EDIT: Something I neglected that complicates all this is that, of course, the Exarch gets two S3 attacks in melee whatever he's armed with, so the diresword then only really adds the save modifier where the extra shuricat adds full extra shots. That does make it look less attractive - and while much of the above applies in that you still can't use the guns when in combat, you aren't actually paying for them.

Thanks for the insight on Rangers. It seems strange that neither Rangers in general nor Sniper specialists in particular ignore the -1 to hit, but one of my Rangers is a comms specialist and so effectively ignores the long-range penalty.

Would you say the issue with the platform is with platforms generally, or with the EML specifically? As in, would a starcannon, shuricannon or scatter laser (why would you ever use a bright lance in Kill Team?) platform be a reasonable option? It's got me reconsidering my DS8 turret in the Tau list - though that has the huge advantage that it doesn't have any base cost so you just pay for the weapon, which is cheaper than any other Tau model. My instinct is that the SMS is the way to go because ignoring LOS seems very good in Kill Team, but the firepower output is only about the same as a drone (though at longer range).
« Last Edit: September 9, 2018, 11:50:12 PM by Rhyleth »

Offline Dread

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #12 on: September 9, 2018, 11:24:23 PM »
So far my experience has taken me away from craftworld but my Harliquins work really good, pistols and special cc weapons and the save, oh boy. Fast and in their face. Gonna try my DE out soon I hope. Until GW gets over their cranial rectumitis and puts out more options for all armies, look at all the models available, mine are benched.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2018, 04:36:44 PM »
Thanks. I never like being completely without melee capability since I know I'm going to be subject to it eventually (he says while assembling a Tau kill team).

My issue is a single melee model is worthless when everyone else wants to shoot. Keep in mind also, that even at long and short range he still gets to shoot several shots while he manuvers. Even if at -1 or -2. That's a lot more than the one sided melee spec.

I agree that the double shuricat Exarch is most efficient - unless the melee options were substantially better he'd have to be, since he doesn't pay anything for having two shuricats and the diresword costs 2. But points efficiency isn't my only consideration: an Avenger Exarch who's engaged isn't using his weapons. One at long range is less likely to hit, and at short range anything can charge him (thanks to the +3" free charge distance everyone gets in Kill-Team).

The damage output per hit is about equal (1/6 less chance to wound for the diresword vs. T4 or less, but usually 1/6-1/3 greater chance to get through armour, disregarding 6s to wound - which are better for the diresword than the shuricat but in practice usually have the same result against 1 wound models unless the opponent has invulnerable saves) and that the number of attacks is close to equivalent (1 pistol shot + 2 attacks, essentially always on 3s, vs. 4 shots usually on 3s but sometimes on 4s). Given that, I prefer to use the more versatile option if I can spare the extra points (conveniently, losing Rangers can help there). I think the two are close enough that it comes down to preference - but this is entirely in respect of diresword vs. twin shuricat. I don't see any reason ever to take the power glaive.

EDIT: Something I neglected that complicates all this is that, of course, the Exarch gets two S3 attacks in melee whatever he's armed with, so the diresword then only really adds the save modifier where the extra shuricat adds full extra shots. That does make it look less attractive - and while much of the above applies in that you still can't use the guns when in combat, you aren't actually paying for them.

I'm not worried about being assaulted due to the better overwatch as well as stratagems should he survive the combat. If he's getting assaulted, your opponent likely gets to attack first anyway..

Thanks for the insight on Rangers. It seems strange that neither Rangers in general nor Sniper specialists in particular ignore the -1 to hit, but one of my Rangers is a comms specialist and so effectively ignores the long-range penalty.

They ignore the negative modifier for long range, but not the penalty for shooting an obscured target (or something stealthy). Makes them very inefficient compared to a guardian for less points.

Would you say the issue with the platform is with platforms generally, or with the EML specifically? As in, would a starcannon, shuricannon or scatter laser (why would you ever use a bright lance in Kill Team?) platform be a reasonable option? It's got me reconsidering my DS8 turret in the Tau list - though that has the huge advantage that it doesn't have any base cost so you just pay for the weapon, which is cheaper than any other Tau model. My instinct is that the SMS is the way to go because ignoring LOS seems very good in Kill Team, but the firepower output is only about the same as a drone (though at longer range).

It's not that the AML is bad at all. Assuming you roll a decent number of plasma shots its quite good. The issue is the total cost. I have better success with more bodies. Such is the way of things anyway.

Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2018, 06:16:29 PM »
My issue is a single melee model is worthless when everyone else wants to shoot. Keep in mind also, that even at long and short range he still gets to shoot several shots while he manuvers. Even if at -1 or -2. That's a lot more than the one sided melee spec.

Just played my first games of Kill Team and I certainly missed not having melee (I was Tau). Boards are so small it seems pretty hard to avoid melee, and I was beaten by an IG team precisely because he got into combat with his couple of melee specialists out of a ranged army. It seems that simply getting the extra attack potential, on top of pistol shots, is a good place to be.

Offline Partninja

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2018, 10:57:44 PM »
Outside of certain models, like Harlies, and a smart opponent it still took a few turns to get into a combat in my games. The Exarch being able to shoot the first and second turn saw more damage than him trying to run across the table getting shot at. Even then, a lot of times models that got into charge range by turn one usually ended up failing the charge as the enemy model would just retreat and then the player didn't roll a far enough charge.

I'm not saying melee is bad. I'm saying a single Exarch equipped for melee is in my experience.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2018, 04:29:42 PM »
I've played with Orks and Harlies and both are fine melee armies, and I find myself in agreement. Melee is fine, but the Eldar KT isn't well suited for it.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2018, 05:36:05 PM »
I don't get why some armies like Admech get access to their melee specalists but CWE doesn't, seems like it leave a bit of a hole in the team dynamics.


Offline Partninja

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2018, 06:41:18 PM »
By and large all Killteams consist of only plastic models. Admech infiltrators fit the theme and are plastic kits. While rangers are indeed resin, I guess they didn't want to stretch too far with the amount of resin models.

I am sad that Scorpions aren't an option.

Offline Rhyleth

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Re: Kill team...really?!
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2018, 09:32:15 PM »
By and large all Killteams consist of only plastic models. Admech infiltrators fit the theme and are plastic kits. While rangers are indeed resin, I guess they didn't want to stretch too far with the amount of resin models.

I am sad that Scorpions aren't an option.

I hadn't thought of it in those terms. I was puzzled that the Eldar didn't get any of their Elites, unlike practically every other faction, but that would explain it.

I suppose it's too much to hope that the Eldar Kill-Team box, when it comes, will contain a new plastic Ranger set, or even a Guardian kit with a new conversion sprue for Rangers and/or Storm Guardians.

I have to think a Kroot Kill-Team will be on the way, since Kroot aren't in the Tau team options, but aside from Carnivores all those models are resin. So I wonder how they'll handle that when the time comes - I do think they're missing an opportunity to use Kill-Team as a venue to release new plastic kits for ranges they aren't supporting with a major series of releases but which still have several resin kits.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 09:47:34 PM by Rhyleth »

 


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