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Author Topic: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?  (Read 443 times)

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Offline Gildaheir

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Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« on: July 22, 2018, 01:57:12 PM »
So, I've been playing a ton of fun, relatively non-serious narrative games lately. I've been trying to mine the codex for some interesting choices that I don't typically field just to try stuff out. There are three entries that stand out to me as units that I can't really see a purpose for, and I'm curious if anyone finds these particularly useful.

1. Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries - I love the models, and I love the concept. I'm a fan of trying to make Ulthwe guardian builds, but this unit seems so objectively bad that I can't figure out how the heck I'd even attempt to field them.

2. Swooping Hawks - They seem to specialize in killing... conscripts? I'm not sure what these winged warriors want to accomplish in a list. Maybe late game objective grabbers?

3. Warp Spiders - my how the mighty have fallen. These seem less "bad" than the first two. They've got the -1 to hit, can go crazy distances, and their guns don't seem awful... but, they're kind like Striking Scorpions in that they seem to be outshined. Do you find them doing one thing really well that makes them the better include than other models in our army?

I'd love to hear if you have head-scratcher units that you've always struggled with as well.

Offline Partninja

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2018, 08:23:11 PM »
Warp Spiders are quite excellent. They key to them doing well is running a full squad. Anything less you're better off with Windriders. They can kill 10-man infantry squads with ease as well as melting lighter vehicles up T6. They're a trouble shooting unit. Use them to quickly move to an area that requires extra support if things aren't going to plan. Also, being able to deep strike makes them quite handy for this same reason. You're basically paying for the better armor save and ability to deep strike without needed to spend CP.

Swooping Hawks are first a foremost and anti-imperial guard equivalent unit due to the lower strength of their last blasters. They can move faster than most other jump infantry units and put out A LOT of shots. Their speed and ability to yoyo makes them very easy to reposition and get to where they're needed. They're good at killing smaller squads of marines but this hasn't faired well for me (specially if you use the correct amount of terrain with ruins and such. Not just LOS blocking). If you face a lot of T3 units they're mint. The special grenade packs I just use if I'm able to but will never go out of my way. With the decent range of the las blasters you want to keep at maximum range. Used in an Alaitoc list and stick to cover they can last quite a while and grab objectives as they go.

The support batteries are very niche and hard to use. Other options are more efficient. The inoy thing they have going for them is being fairly durable sitting in terrain. A unit of them in an Alaitoc list, hiding on an objective in your back lines can be pretty survivable. The weavers being the easier to use option.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 08:25:38 PM by Partninja »

Offline magenb

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2018, 11:20:08 PM »
Swooping Hawks do are about as killy as a dire avenger unit of the same size, assuming balanced dice on both sides of that equation. The benefit with Hawks, is you can keep them out of rapid fire range without fire and fade.

Warp spiders are in a weird place. Warp jump is an average of 12-14 inches, giving them an average threat range of 24-26. If they just move, run and fire, then it's 22-23 inches. DA have a threat range of 28-29 inches. Warp spiders are slightly better at killing units, slightly harder to kill. The big difference though is Warp spiders get stuck not only in rapid fire range, but charge range, so for me they feel like a clean up crew, finishing off that little unit rather than something you can play aggressively with. I don't think they are an optimal option, but still something useful.

Support weapons.. They are very situational, so might OK in Narrative games where you have some idea what's going on in the match. D-cannons are over priced, you are better off taking those points in reapers. Vibro is OK, but you need LOS, so other things can pick you off. This makes Shadow Weaver the best option, but it can totally wif out. Put them behind LOS blocking terrain with a screening unit to stop DS guns/assaults. If you don't Have LOS blocking terrain, then you really want something else to attract fire.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2018, 02:25:59 AM »
I think for Vaul's Wrath batteries there are two main uses:

1) Shadow Weaver - this makes for a very cheap heavy support unit that puts out semi respectable AT fire. It'll be about as effective as a few guardians at shooting at marines, with the advantage of being easy to hide. I think having a couple of these guys to round out a brigade and give you some backliners that can hide entirely out of LoS while camping objectives or seizing ground can be a reasonable choice. They won't earn their points back, but they'll do something at least.

2) D-Cannon - the D-Cannon is almost reasonably priced. Basically, you get a gun that's like 2 Wraithguards stapled together, with twice the range. the downside is that the effective range is only slightly longer than the wraithguard range, because the D-cannon wants to stand still. However, if you're willing to take a penalty, it has more reach. It can also shoot through buildings and such, ignoring LoS. Compared to 2 Wraithguard, it's far less durable, worse in assault, vulnerable to anti-vehicle weapons, and so on. if you want this thing to outperform wraithguard, the wide radius of its threat area or the LoS-breaking ability has to matter

3) Vibrocannon - quite bad, don't take. one of the few things in the codex that I think is just not useful.



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Swooping Hawks - I actually think these guys are great, particularly with Doom support, but also in general. you can drop them in, cause trouble for the enemy, zip around, nab objectives, and force him to redirect units and resources towards them. Some anti-infantry firepower has decent range (kastelan robots, assault cannons, Heavy Bolters) but a lot of it is short range (hurricane bolters, etc) or multipurpose (LRBT shooting). A lot of times, their lack of objsec isn't even a huge problem because they'll be dropping into something the enemy doesn't have. These guys are really great in Maelstrom or ITC (if you play that).



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Warp Spiders - kinda fill a similar role to swooping hawks, but less firepower (basically) in return for far more durability. I find that these guys are nice as Alaitoc, because the enemy has -2 to hit them, and they have good armor saves. The trick is to drop down within 12" of a particular enemy you want to kill, but far from most of the enemy army and in cover. That way, you can blast down one enemy unit, but now you're 24" away from all the enemies, they're hitting you only on 5s (or maybe even 6s!) and you're making a sweet sweet 2+ save against anything that gets through. In this regard, they're extremely annoying.

I've found powerblades a little underwhelming, but since these guys get assaulted sometimes it's not so bad. A small squad kitted out for dakka is good.
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Offline Gildaheir

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2018, 10:35:54 AM »
The responses are much appreciated. The warp spider advice is some good stuff. I hadn't really thought of Fire and Fade and probably undervalued stacking -1s on them. Shame the models are so dated/bland. Love the Russian attercops ones, but that price tag is beyond my budget.

My biggest frustration with the support batteries is that they don't function as a single unit once deployed, so guide goes out the window. I'd be far more inclined to take a d-cannon battery if I could guide the three of them to guarantee a better return on my lofty investment, but the d3 shots without means of buffing makes them inefficient for the price tag. That's why I loved my warwalkers even though they're a sometimes maligned unit. I can at least drop guide on them and get a ton of rerollable starcannon/shuriken cannon shots. I love the models and will probably try shadow weavers as you guys suggested. They're cheap enough that I'm less bothered by the d6.

I think my swooping hawks issue is more a meta problem. I exclusively play against MEQ opponents at the moment (we have some Tau and Orks joining soon, though). And we play with some fairly dense sector mechanicus terrain, so my buddies' Death Guard, Ultramarines, and Ironhands so lasblaster fire is more an annoying tickle than anything. The mortal wounds are nice, though. Maybe I should plan on yo-yoing them all game for the 'nade pack to see if I can get results that way.

I'm curious what units you all find as a challenging unit to get mileage from. I love our codex because it seems everything at least has a purpose. Some of it is far better at achieving its goals than others, but I don't see any "what the hell were they thinking?!" type units.

Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2018, 12:05:15 PM »
@magenb
Not sure you're correct about the threat range of Spiders...
When they warp-jump, they move and jump, but can't advance or charge. This makes it 7"+4d6, averaging at 21". With range of 12" this makes an average threat range of 33", which is pretty far. What ruins their performance is the combination of damage output, which is rather low for their cost, and short range of their weapons, which makes them practically a one-use-only suicide unit. In fact, point for point they are probably not much worse than Dire Avengers, but they aren't Troops, which limits their usability dramatically.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2018, 06:04:27 PM »
@magenb
Not sure you're correct about the threat range of Spiders...
When they warp-jump, they move and jump, but can't advance or charge. This makes it 7"+4d6, averaging at 21".
 
My bad I read that wrong, it actually says the move is increased by 4D6.

Offline The Reborn

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2018, 01:10:08 AM »
I agree with the general assessment on Hawks and batteries, but find Warp Spiders perhaps a little hard done by here.
Aspects are situational units....to get the best out of them you have to get them to where they are needed....spiders score well here.
You also need to use them against the right enemy units...mine excel at devestating tyranid gaunt units and shooting up enemy flyers. I find their best roles are support and back-field clearing up. They can be surprisingly survivable, just as they can be amazingly quick around the board if you roll well. Strength 6 is great for weakening or destroying all manner of targets, and that speed means they will often get there. So I like them and make good use of them...only in 10's though, it's not worth diluting that firepower.
The models are awful, and GW are criminally negligent to leave so many of our units lacking up to date plastic miniatures.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 04:41:26 AM by The Reborn »

Offline Gildaheir

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #8 on: August 5, 2018, 01:54:24 PM »
I was listening to Forge the Narrative, and they mentioned bringing D-Cannon Support Batteries in via the Webway Gate. That seems somewhat intriguing. How does that work in terms of the whole "purchased as a unit but deployed as separate ones?"

Offline Partninja

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #9 on: August 5, 2018, 05:26:03 PM »
Whatever they were talking about you can't do. The support weapon batteries lack the appropriate keyword(s) to be able to use the webway strike or cloudstrike stratagems.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #10 on: August 5, 2018, 09:07:36 PM »
Partninja is correct. Unfortunately, they must be started on the board. A D-Cannon Platform costs about as much as 2 Wraithguard and has the same damage output as 2 Wraithguard while having 7" more threat range (24" range vs 12+5=17" threat range), better performance around LoS blockers, and being far more vulnerable. I've used em once or twice and they're fun, but not actually good.
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Offline Gildaheir

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #11 on: August 5, 2018, 11:03:48 PM »
Whatever they were talking about you can't do. The support weapon batteries lack the appropriate keyword(s) to be able to use the webway strike or cloudstrike stratagems.

They were talking about the Webway Gate model. The new one that released with the Harlequin Codex. I believe they can be deployed through it.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #12 on: August 6, 2018, 02:04:30 AM »
Whatever they were talking about you can't do. The support weapon batteries lack the appropriate keyword(s) to be able to use the webway strike or cloudstrike stratagems.

They were talking about the Webway Gate model. The new one that released with the Harlequin Codex. I believe they can be deployed through it.

This can be done. The way this works if you have 1 unit of 3 D-Cannon Platforms is that they all arrive on the field as a single unit following the deployment restrictions on distance, and from then on act independently as said on their datacard.

I would observe, in this case, that you're spending over 100 points for the privilege of doing this. While the Webway Gate is a fun model, it's very cost-ineffective. This would in fact get your D-Cannons in position, though. Bear in mind that under the new Reserves rules, they wouldn't be able to come in until Turn 2 - potentially after your enemy has 2 turns to destroy the Webway gate, or move away from it. And, of course, units that arrive as reinforcements count as moving, which makes the D-Cannon shots somewhat worse on the first turn.

If your goal is deep-striking units with D-cannon like weaponry, instead of getting 3 D-cannon plats, I recommend picking up a unit of Wraithguard and spending cp for Webway Strike. This is less good now that you can't Quicken them out of Webway Strike though. You could also get 5 Wraithguard in a Wave Serpent for the price of the Webway Gate + 3 D-Cannons Plats, and you'd have a far tougher, more reliable, more adaptable unit - and the unit that positions it is better too.

The Webway Gate D-Cannon thing isn't completely unusable, but it's not very good. And if it really comes down to it and you want a bunch of high-strength shots, you could always just take 2 Crimson Hunters for the cost of 3 D-Cannon plats and a Webway gate.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Uses for Fringe Eldar Units?
« Reply #13 on: August 6, 2018, 10:34:09 AM »
Whatever they were talking about you can't do. The support weapon batteries lack the appropriate keyword(s) to be able to use the webway strike or cloudstrike stratagems.

They were talking about the Webway Gate model. The new one that released with the Harlequin Codex. I believe they can be deployed through it.

Totally my mistake. I read that completely wrong lol.

 


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