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Author Topic: Eldar Lore and List Building  (Read 985 times)

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Offline Socialtrader

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Eldar Lore and List Building
« on: June 28, 2018, 01:10:00 AM »
Hello Elder experts...

I'm attending an event later this year and need to settle on a list so that I can make the necessary purchases and get painting. This event is hobby-focused (which I think is a positive) but as I am very new to the whole 40k universe I'm at a bit of a loss when it comes to lore and theme and what would be considered 'power gaming'. I would love some feedback on the following three lists - basically I'm looking for which one you consider fluffiest according to the criteria...and why.

First, the criteria:

"The idea for FOB is to play cool games on great tables with fair armies. I don't want people being tabled Turn 2 by the latest internet beatstick so I am trying to incentivise/encourage more balanced armies than the current tournament norm.

My aim is to have people turn up and have six tightly contested games....

The two key criteria here are Theme and Balance and they go hand in hand. The armies that score well at FOB will be "in Theme" and they will be balanced. Some things that will score you well:

Single Book selection - dragging things from multiple books generally is done for efficiency rather than theme e.g. a CP battery to power a beatstick.

Selection reflects theme. Read your codex e.g. if you are Ulthwe then I want to see Guardians, Warlock Conclave, not Reapers and Spears. Same with Alaiaoc - Rangers, Autarch, War Walkers not just Eldar with +1 to Hit. This works for every codex....Hivefleet is not just a trait etc

Leadership options - I'm going to give anything overly invested in HQs a second glance. I don't think Mortarion comes out to solve a dispute over lunch money.
Combined arms...Not just Characters, Troop Tax and Heavy Support for example. If you have a variety of Force Org slots then great.

Lack of Cliches - same relics, choosing a Army Trait so you can access a certain stratagem - Vect has stopped taking recruits for Kabal of the Black Heart
The limit on Detachments will help this somewhat. The players are the additional step.

You will be incentivised for following the above. And conversely, you don't have to but then don't moan if your score is at the lower end. I calculated that the difference between top and bottom of range is just over a "win". It is a risky strategy in a field of 64. So are you feeling "lucky"?


My ideas so far:

Ulthwe Battalion
Warlord Eldrad Ulthran
Spirit Seer
Warlock
20 x Guardians + 2 weapons platforms
10 x Guardians + 1 weapons platform
10 x Guardians + 1 weapons platform
Wave Serpent
6 x Wraithguard
Ulthwe Spearhead
Autarch (on foot)
5 x Dark Reapers
5 x Dark Reapers
3 x War Walkers

Alaitoc Battalion
Warlord Autarch (on foot)
Illic Nightspear
5 x Rangers
5 x Rangers
5 x Rangers
14 x Guardians + weapons platform
5 x Swooping Hawk
5 x Swooping Hawk
Wave Serpent
Alaitoc Spearhead
Farseer
Warlock
6 x Dark Reapers
2 x Fire Prism
3 x War Walker

Ulthwe Battalion
Warlord Eldrad Ulthran
Farseer
Warlock Conclave (2 Warlocks)
20 x Guardians + 2 weapons platforms
11 x Guardians + 1 weapons platform
5 x Rangers
5 x Swooping Hawks
Wave Serpent
Ulthwe Spearhead
Autarch (on foot)
4 x Dark Reapers
2 x Fire Prism
3 x War Walkers

Thanks for your help!

Offline Irisado

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2018, 04:18:31 AM »
Welcome to the forum :).

You may find this article helpful to a certain extent.  It was written quite a long time ago now, but some of the ideas underpinning it will be relevant to the question that you have posed.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2018, 06:58:23 PM »

Leadership options - I'm going to give anything overly invested in HQs a second glance. I don't think Mortarion comes out to solve a dispute over lunch money.
Combined arms...Not just Characters, Troop Tax and Heavy Support for example. If you have a variety of Force Org slots then great.


I read this as basically no named characters, so I would clarify it with them first.

Also what's the PL or point matches are they looking to play?

I would also consider the value of a single command point from the extra detachment.

I would considering adjusting your list to something like:

Ulthwe Battalion
Farseer or Eldrad (Doom and Guide)
SpiritSeer (conceal)- Seer of the shifting vector is an interesting option here if you don't take Eldrad :)
Warlock or SpiritSeer to run with Banshee's (Empower)
20 x Guardians + 2 weapons platforms - Shuriken Cannons - guessing this is a webway bomb.
10 x Guardians + 1 weapons platform - Shuriken Cannon
10 x Guardians + 1 weapons platform - AT weapon like a BL or AML, I would use this unit to prevent Melee units from walking up to your reapers and area control to mitigate some DSing.

10 Banshees including Exarch.
Wave Serpent
Hemlock
10 x Dark Reapers
3 x War Walkers - Scatter lasers - I would use these for area control help stop enemy DSing near your reapers and to help thin out hordes.


Offline Socialtrader

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2018, 10:00:03 PM »
Thanks for the welcome Irisado, and for the link (which I found very useful). I've enjoyed reading though many of the articles on this site since joining the 40k community at the beginning of the year. They informed my purchases and helped me get the most out of my first tournament despite limited experience.

Magenb: it is a 1750 event with sixty competitors playing six games each. You make a good point about named characters so I'm going to head back to the list building stage with that in mind along with some of what I gleamed from the article Irisado recommended. Shame though, as Illic looked like fun!

Offline magenb

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2018, 07:19:15 AM »
Magenb: it is a 1750 event with sixty competitors playing six games each. You make a good point about named characters so I'm going to head back to the list building stage with that in mind along with some of what I gleamed from the article Irisado recommended. Shame though, as Illic looked like fun!

Double check with organiser as it isn't 100% clear, they may just be stopping big point cost named characters.


Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2018, 08:53:31 AM »
Hi and welcome!
I agree with magenb - you should double-check with tournament organisers first. There's nothing more thematic than fielding Ulthwe force led by Eldrad.

Magenb's list also looks awesome imho. I'd stick to shucannons on War Walkers though - being forced to hit on 4+ after moving is bad, trust me :)
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Offline Socialtrader

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2018, 09:23:48 PM »
Okay, I've had a think about things over the weekend. I'm not sure about contacting the organiser as I've already asked some questions and I don't want to spam the poor guy. Eldrad is powerful so I'm going to assume he is out - Illic, however, is sub-optimal so I think he will be fine.

I liked the Ulthwe list suggested by Magenb, but I won't be buying any Hemlocks at the moment. My gaming friends (who have much more experience with 40k than me) consider them overpowered for their cost and having been run over by a pair of them and a Crimson Hunter Exarch myself at my first tournament I'd put them squarely in the 'highly competitive' box that the organiser is encouraging us to avoid. I'm also not intending to spend on Banshees, but I do have some Striking Scorpions from the large metal job-lot I've started out with.

With that in mind, does this list strike a balance between somewhat competitive and in theme? I've added the Scorpions after taking Irisado's suggested article into mind. It is basically a gunline with character sniping potential for fun. I've left in the Spearhead to get the extra two characters rather than for the command point. Is it too much?

Alaitoc Battalion
Warlord Autarch with Reaper Launcher + Incomparable Hunter
Illic Nightspear
Warlock (Conceal/Reveal)
5 x Rangers
5 x Rangers
5 x Rangers
4 x Striking Scorpions + Exarch
4 x Swooping Hawk + Exarch
4 x Swooping Hawk + Exarch
Wave Serpent with Shuriken Cannons
Alaitoc Spearhead
Farseer (Guide, Doom)
Warlock (Protect/Jinx)
6 x Dark Reaper + Exarch Tempest Launcher
2 x Fire Prism (I'm intending to proxy Warp Hunters as I love the model and dislike the Prism)
3 x War Walker (2 Brightlance, 2 Starcannon, 2 Shuriken Cannon)
1749 points

Offline Partninja

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #7 on: July 1, 2018, 12:50:11 AM »
Hemlocks are quite suboptimal for their points. Not OP at all. Big points lists that run 3+ flyers is what makes them seem OP.

I wouldn't suggest heavy weapons on the walkers. Moving and shooting them will make for poor results. I would go all Shuriken Cannons or use something else entirely. If I was going to have them stand still in the back lines, and you really wanted to use them, go with missile launchers. With proper deployment they should be able to reach just about whatever they want without needing to move and gives you two useful fire modes. Moving and firing 6D6 wouldn't be terrible with a lower BS if you had to. At this point I would just take more Reapers for the points...

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #8 on: July 1, 2018, 03:25:06 AM »
The War Walkers are there for the lore as much as anything. In my first (only) event they seldom moved and typically had plenty to shoot at each turn. If they moved I usually used Guide on them. I see them as jack-of-all-trades depending on the opposition; backline shooter, counter to deep strikes, Turn 2 hit from reserves using scout rules. The selection of weapons also suits how I used them. Opponents vehicles dead? Bright Lances die first. Playing Marines? Shuriken Cannons are bullet catchers. Not optimal, but not bad either. 

Hemlocks...certainl y don't seem suboptimal, but then again I am a beginner! :)

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #9 on: July 1, 2018, 03:27:04 AM »
Welcome! From a mainly Saim Hann player I will just point out that your list, while very fluffy, is also gonna be vulnerable. The small units of 5 at our low toughness will die rather quickly which can make an opponents life easier. I understand the no power house armies, I'm a big advocate of that myself. However if you have objectives, it can make holding them for points really difficult as well as needing something that can speed over to contest or take them. Warp spiders, hawks, jetbikes have that ability but you'll need more bodies to help with staying power. Your tanks and walkers can be an asset but with nothing left to protect become mute.

Also about the hemlock, it really isn't OP. Flyers can help balance out a game.

In the end having fun is the objective of gaming but losing all the time can make it not so much. A good competitive game is more satisifing then just letting everyone walk all over you, trust me, that's what I used to do. That can take the fun away and make it harder to want to play.

Hope this helps and again welcome.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #10 on: July 1, 2018, 11:00:17 AM »
Hemlocks seem great until you only roll for 2 or 3 shots each turn and your 200+ point model doesn't kill much. That's my experience anyway.


Offline magenb

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #11 on: July 1, 2018, 05:25:44 PM »
Dread is right, most CWE infantry units do best around 6-7 models per unit when min sizing. Our Elite close combat units do better as max sized units or running multiple small units. I suspect your list is a bit too heavily invested in Heavy support, but that will depend a bit on what is being played in your local area.


The load out on the war walkers is fine, as it looks like you are planning on the shuriken cannon one to abosrb some fire to keep the heavy weapons going longer. With that said I'm not a fan of war walkers in this edition, I still play games of 5th ed where they are my go to unit :) So I would consider dropping them entirely, maxing out the dark reaper squad and beefing up the scorpions and hawks with a couple more bodies, maybe something like:

Alaitoc Battalion
Farseer (Guide, Doom)
Illic Nightspear

5 x Rangers
5 x Rangers
5 x Rangers

7 x Striking Scorpions + Exarch with Biting Blade (8 models)

5 x Swooping Hawk + Exarch with Hawk's Talon (total of 6 models)
5 x Swooping Hawk + Exarch with Hawk's Talon (total of 6 models)

Wave Serpent with 3 Shuriken Cannons

Crimson Hunter

Alaitoc Spearhead
Spiritseer (conceal/reveal) - I would consider making this one the warload and take the seer of the shiufting vector to make it more reliable.
Warlock (empower - use it on scorpions :))

9 Dark Reapers With exarch (10 models)
1 Fire Prism
1 Fire Prism

1739 points.

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Re: Eldar Lore and List Building
« Reply #12 on: July 3, 2018, 04:00:27 AM »
Okay, I've had a think about things over the weekend. I'm not sure about contacting the organiser as I've already asked some questions and I don't want to spam the poor guy. Eldrad is powerful so I'm going to assume he is out - Illic, however, is sub-optimal so I think he will be fine.

I liked the Ulthwe list suggested by Magenb, but I won't be buying any Hemlocks at the moment. My gaming friends (who have much more experience with 40k than me) consider them overpowered for their cost and having been run over by a pair of them and a Crimson Hunter Exarch myself at my first tournament I'd put them squarely in the 'highly competitive' box that the organiser is encouraging us to avoid.
Sorry for being blunt, but I just can't help mentioning that this line of thinking is... well, a bit odd. 40k is a game where one person wins and the other one loses. And that's normal. But - by all means please correct me if I'm wrong - you sound like you want to be nice to everyone, and being nice = not winning too much (ideally not winning at all!). Well, if you feel highly concerned with being nice to everyone - it's probably better not to play Craftworld Eldar at all. You see, it just happens so that Eldar as an army tend to cause no end of frustration in other people - in fact, you probably should be prepared to see that whenever you win a game, your opponent will grumble that it's because your army is OP. And on like 50% of times when you lose a game, your victorious opponent will still grumble that your army is OP and needs a nerfbat. And only if you deliberately fill your list with the worst and most sub-optimal choices from the codex - only then, after totally trampling your army into dust, your opponent might grudgingly agree that this is the right and fair way to field Eldar.

Now, this all boils down to the general culture that exists in a specific community. I did happen to play in groups with very healthy attitude, where noone pays attention to how "OP" someone's list is - everyone just plays against whatever they happen to face and tries to do as best they can and have fun in the process. Most groups, however, are dominated by people who get more or less salty when they lose, and so are very quick to label all opponents they can't beat "WAAC" and their lists "OP" and "broken". And, frankly speaking, when I read the words of the TO that you quoted, they also strike me as words of a person who's overly concerned with penalising "OP" lists,  which means he's likely addressing a community of the latter type.

Sorry for this long speech :) what I'm trying to say is that if you happen to play in a community where people tend to be highly concerned with "OP-ness" of other people's lists, you should be prepared to have your army labelled "OP" just for being Eldar, almost regardless of what specific units you bring (and sometimes even regardless of how often you actually win for that matter). So, if I were you, I'd just go with what feels cool and good for theme and overall synergy :)


Quote
Alaitoc Battalion
Warlord Autarch with Reaper Launcher + Incomparable Hunter
Illic Nightspear
Warlock (Conceal/Reveal)
5 x Rangers
5 x Rangers
5 x Rangers
4 x Striking Scorpions + Exarch
4 x Swooping Hawk + Exarch
4 x Swooping Hawk + Exarch
Wave Serpent with Shuriken Cannons
Alaitoc Spearhead
Farseer (Guide, Doom)
Warlock (Protect/Jinx)
6 x Dark Reaper + Exarch Tempest Launcher
2 x Fire Prism (I'm intending to proxy Warp Hunters as I love the model and dislike the Prism)
3 x War Walker (2 Brightlance, 2 Starcannon, 2 Shuriken Cannon)
1749 points

This is a good and balanced list overall. One element that is 99% useless is the unit of Striking Scorpions: they are weak in close combat, and with beta deep-strike rules they are also very difficult to get anywhere. At the same time, your list overall distinctly lacks anti-tank; therefore I'd suggest to drop the scorps and use the points to equip all three War Walkers with lances.

Good luck!
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"If it's not for a tournament then play whatever it is that you like. Without the pressure of having to utterly destroy your opponent it opens up alot more opportunity to have fun." - Lazarus

 


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