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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #1 on: May 1, 2018, 01:07:08 PM »
It has begun:
Codex: Deathwatch Preview ? Focused. Adaptable. Deadly. - Warhammer Community

That looks cool. I do hope they wind up being powerful enough to be viable. I love the idea of hyper-elite armies, but with the exception of Custodes, elites just aren't elite enough.

Offline Killersquid

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #2 on: May 1, 2018, 01:27:36 PM »
I just won a 10 man squad at the last event I went too. Might need to start up a force. Kinda excited about this.
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Offline magenb

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #3 on: May 1, 2018, 09:21:28 PM »
That looks cool. I do hope they wind up being powerful enough to be viable. I love the idea of hyper-elite armies, but with the exception of Custodes, elites just aren't elite enough.

Yeah, elite armies just get wasted by volume of fire, which is super easy to get now. I kind of wanted the special ammo to go on all bolter based weapons, as it would make them hit really hard for the point cost at least.. assault bolters with special ammo would have been awesome.

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #4 on: May 2, 2018, 11:20:59 AM »
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #5 on: May 2, 2018, 01:02:42 PM »
The big question is, ultimately, "can Primaris Marines ride in Transports (besides the Repulsor)?"

If the answer is still "no," then they can GTFO.

Offline Killersquid

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #6 on: May 2, 2018, 02:03:09 PM »
The big question is, ultimately, "can Primaris Marines ride in Transports (besides the Repulsor)?"

If the answer is still "no," then they can GTFO.

It's 100% going to be exactly the same as in the space marine,blood Angels and dark Angels codex. No.

But, primaris marines don't need transports to do well. They are a great footslogging force. I played in a team tournament last weekend, and our Primaris player lost only 1/5 games. His only non-primaris models, was a captain with jump pack, and Pedro Kantor. He tabled most of his opponents.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #7 on: May 3, 2018, 11:11:13 AM »
Quote from: @TracyAuGoGO
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Offline Killersquid

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #8 on: May 3, 2018, 01:05:56 PM »
Stratagem time
Deathwatch: A Stratagem For Every Enemy - Warhammer Community


They are cool abilities. Not crazy strong, but a nice boost against certain armies. The doctrines are going to be the most useful ones for sure.

Still, it all comes down to how expensive the models are. Marines are too fragile, and cost per model was the death of Grey Knights. Doesn't matter how good their weapons are, they Just get blasted off the table by far more cost effective units.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #9 on: May 3, 2018, 03:15:10 PM »
Yeah, durability is still the major issue. This can be mitigated somewhat by liberal use of Primaris marines (and, honestly, I'm mulling a small Deathwatch force of pure Primaris for just this reason), but the cost per model still is a killer.

Also: 6 kill teams and 4HQs for a Double Battalion? That's a lot of points. I guess everybody's playing 2000 these days, but nobody around here as ever played much more than 1850. 

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #10 on: May 3, 2018, 03:46:18 PM »
6 five man squads isn't too expensive. Especially if you keep them cheap. It'd be quite realistic to run two stripped down battalions in 1500pts. I've made a few 2000pt primaris Brigade army's, so two battalions would be cheaper.

I think too that folks just play 2000pts. It's the only size of game I play, either at the lfgs or events. 

Primaris marines are quite good, so I can see primaris deathwatch being strong. It's the non-primaris marines I'm worried about. One wound marines are just not good.
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Offline magenb

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2018, 05:59:18 PM »
Normal marines for deathwatch went down, which is nice, but still more expensive than smurfs. Looks like primaris marines might be better value point wise over standard kill team.

Offline laucian_meliamne

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2018, 12:27:30 AM »
The DW "normal" marines are Veterans, and cost the same as Sternguard before adding wargear.

To me it feels like to make the most out of the new DW you really want both standard Veterans and Primaris kill teams.  The Primaris marines, with their extra wounds, make up for the fact that the standard veterans are really squishy.  But Primaris lose out on the sheer versatility of the standard kill team.

Primaris kill teams feel like they're best as either a long-range fire-support team loaded up with heavy weapons and and Aggressor that camps in the back-field, ideally on an objective you care about; or as a close-range run-and-gun unit with an Inceptor, Aggressor, probably a Reiver, and lots of assault weapons.  In either case, they're not going to do much in close-combat, and aside from the powerfists of the Aggressor, and 2-3 Hellblasters, there isn't much ability to damage enemy vehicles.  (Monstrous creatures are easy with bolt weapons and special-issue ammunition however.)

Veteran kill teams on the other hand have access to more special rules from the inclusion of terminators, bikes, and vanguard veterans, and can be kitted out in a wider variety of roles thanks to the larger weapon/equipment lists, and enjoy greater mobility thanks to their transport options.

The big down-side is that Veteran kill teams are a squad of expensive, single-wound models that is VERY easy to take down with focused fire.  This can be mitigated by taking some cheap sacrificial models (boltgun + chainsword is about as cheap as you can make them) to pull off a casualties from the inevitable mortal wounds. On top of that you'll definitely want a terminator for the 2+ save vs poor-AP weapons, and a veteran with a stormshield for the 3+ invul against bigger things. That mitigates the squishiness a bit, but it means your "core" kill team is really only 6-7 models, with some sacrificial guys hanging around to die first.  Not necessarily the best points investment, but it might work out?

Because of DW's high-cost/low-model list, I'm wondering if it's worth keeping an apothecary around next to one of your kill teams. Obviously they can't ride in the Blackstar (stupid Primaris keyword.... also, why TF do DW have access to Primaris Apothecaries, but not the regular ones? Try as I might, I just can't come up with a good excuse for that), but if you've got a foot-slogging Veteran squad, or a Primaris run-and-gun squad that's likely going to be taking a lot of fire, he might be worth including just to keep that Aggressor or Hellblaster alive a little longer?

Offline magenb

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2018, 03:40:42 AM »
Yeah the primaris can sit back and just snipe/own the objective in your deployment zone, but I'm not really over the moon with the codex, so I'm not really read to shell out more money on them just yet, not with Eldar terrain coming out this month lol :)

I'll still give what I have a go. I'm thinking of loading up a unit in the corvus with storm bolters as they get access to special ammo now, one Vanguard and a fragcannon or two, hopefully get a storm shield in there. That should smack things rather well.




Offline laucian_meliamne

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2018, 05:00:38 AM »
I agree that overall it's nothing super exciting. I was hoping at the very least we'd get rules for a couple of the named characters from Kill Team Cassius (mainly the eponymous Chaplain Cassius and Librarian what's-his-name).  I know Cassius has rules in the SM codex, but having rules for the younger version of him would have been nice. Having a single named character in the whole book is kind of underwhelming.

On the one hand I'm glad that there's nothing radically new and that it feels about the same as it did in the index + in chapter approved. On the other hand, I feel like there were definitely some missed opportunities.  But there are some highlights to be sure.

The updated list of weapons that get special issue ammunition is really nice. Very happy storm bolters made that list finally. As one review pointed out, a biker sergeant with the twin boltguns + a storm bolter (because bikes get equipment finally!) can dish out 8 shots that wound on 2s at short-range.  That's not bad for a single model.  Plus putting a bare-bones power sword + storm bolter terminator in a squad feels like a much more solid option now.

I'm definitely going to have to put together some veterans with storm bolters now.  Storm bolter + chainsword feels like a nice way to kit out a "standard" marine without spending too many points.  I'll probably still keep a few minimal bolter + chainsword guys to absorb moral wounds for the rest of the squad, but storm bolters suddenly jumped to the top of my non-heavy weapon choices.

Another thing I just noticed was that DW have an expanded combi weapons list. I didn't think combi-grav was on the list before, was it?  Or am I misremembering?

Offline magenb

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2018, 06:03:30 PM »
Plus putting a bare-bones power sword + storm bolter terminator in a squad feels like a much more solid option now.

I don't know, a single terminator with stormbolter and power sword is almost the same cost as two vets with stormbolters. Same number of wounds, twice the shots and the 2+ save is going to kick in from the cover save any way. The invul is a nice option, but against you'll want to kit something out with a storm shield. Given a lot of  high AP shots tend to do multiple points of damage as well, seems like a termy isn't going to do that much.

Offline laucian_meliamne

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2018, 07:27:13 PM »
The terminator is primarily there for the special rules buff, not necessarily for the additional durability. Sure, the 2+ save and extra wound is nice, but for me that's not the primary draw of having a terminator in a kill team.

Offline magenb

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Re: New Deathwatch
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2018, 05:30:22 PM »
Had a couple of games with them now, the normal marines can put out a solid amount of fire power, they can really put the hurt on orks. Fragcannons are still amazing but their points costs hurts.

If you are playing with the old kit, I would look at trying to fit bikers into the troops squad, they seem to be the optimal point option for a gun line unit, as you basically get 2 vets worth of shooting and wounds at a higher T, but less attacks in close combat for a few less points. If you take the same number of Vets as bikers (or more bikers than vets), then you can use the Higher T against all incoming fire.



 


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