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Author Topic: The subject of Dire Avenger.  (Read 2041 times)

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Offline Grizzlykin

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The subject of Dire Avenger.
« on: April 19, 2018, 04:02:19 PM »
Good evening everyone, yes it's evening here.

The dire avengers... Defenetly one if not the most iconic unit of the eldars. In they glorious days, they used to be at forefront of any descent eldar army. We probably all miss the bladestorm rule a little bit, and I mean the actual bladestorm rule, not the rending rule that it is today. But I'm getting side tracked. I come today with a question. Actually it's multiple ones but since you the subject is dire avengers all the same, let's say it's only one question :D

What do the math hammer guy's, the great players and the odities of this forum think about them. Are there value good? Do you use them? Do you think about using them? How are you using them.
Simply put, dire avengers in 8th or not?

Let me begin with my own experience then. My gaming experience in 8th is not all that big. A few games right and left but that's hardly ever been either finish or I rarely thought about what I did put in my army. Yet, for some odd reason, dire avengers seems to have find there way in every single one of my games. For background purposes, I didn't like Da at first, but since I have gotten a few I have been trying to get them to work, with more or less success actually. The moment they worked best was against an ork player, sadly for him, he was on foot. The avenger could stay away from his charging range and blast him like no tomorrow for 3 turns before et Waaagh and came at me with a rush. But they were kinda efficient. Yet I can't help but feel they are underwhelming. Comparing them to our other troops choice it's a difficult choice to take them. They are neither as practical nor as resilient as ranger in cover, but they are more mobile. They have more range than guardians but what is the difference between 12 and 18 inch today honestly? With all the other armys at 24 most of the time. Are they good at counter charging? With improve overwatch they do fare better than other, but what so you think about this benefit compared to a heavy weapon platform? It's a rather simple trade sadly, guardian will do the job most of the time.

But fluff wise it's saddening to see Khaine's most represented aspect be less and less included in our lists.

I do not ask of you how should DA be buffed if they were to need one, but how would you use them as they are, assuming you are taking them. I want them to do good. But I feel that since the DA shrine Era, they have been relegated as second, at best, troup choice.

They will probably grace every list I play as long as it's a friendly game but for now and it might be because I'm bad at it I can't find a place for them in a competitive list.

Go ahead if you have any idea, teach me, and every one, how you use them and how to use them! If there is even such a thing.
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Offline magenb

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2018, 05:25:10 PM »
Since the codex dropped, I run them in just about every list.

12 vs 18 in 8th doesn't sound like a big deal. For me I generally will get a round of shooting in before a foot slogging melee unit comes at them. The extra 6" also makes move, advance and shooting just that much better. That extra range is also useful with the 7" fall back strat.

Guardians are very difficult to keep alive, the sheer volume of fire means they just get melted off the table and in numbers that will cause them to flee, especially once the grav platform is taken out. DA's can still get wiped out, but being in cover they tend to hold out longer. So to keep GD's alive you are spending points on a warlock, so they become very expensive and/or spending CP. On that, either Kabalite warriors are too cheap or guardians are over priced.

Rangers, are hit and miss unless taken on mass, but that's a lot of point to generate Mortal wounds on characters, so then you are hurting your army due to the lack of shots it can put out against everything else. I tend not to take them anymore, too many armies have something that ignores cover or they simply get charged, so yeah, people know of to remove them now.



Basically I use DA's to play cat and mouse games with, they are not there to blow something away, but to whittle things down or finish something off. They are quick enough so they generally don't need transports to make it to objectives.

One thing to mention, no one in our group plays Tau. Since they can now rapid fire insane ranges, so GD's and DA's are going to have a hard time against firewarriors.

Offline Partninja

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2018, 06:11:03 PM »
It depends on the types of lists you run.

From a pure damage output perspective, assuming you'll only get one turn of putting the hurt on, guardians would generally be better as you can take more of them for less points.

Now when you break down the Craftworld trait you'll use, your delivery method (mechanized, deep strike, foot slogging) they both have pros and cons.

Guardians can be taken in big squads with platforms that can tank wounds like a Terminator in cover. 40+ shuriken shots can kill lots of things. Taken as Iyanden, Biel-tan or Ulthwe can make them more hearty or do more damage. Smaller squads in Serpents are still great for drive-bys at a cheaper cost to Avengers. Putting a big squad or two in the warp is also very strong.

Avengers are great for foot slogging with their added range and better base save. Shimmer shield can make them fairly hardy. Putting two 6-man squads in Serpents is also quite good albeit a higher price. You'll get more shots as well as two troop units per serpent (for FOC padding etc).

TL:DR - They're both good. Use both. They're just good (and bad) in different ways.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2018, 06:32:13 PM »
I like to run 2x5 DAs with a 2-cat exarch each, together in one Wave Serpent. Good damage output, though not as good as Guardians, they can be delivered pretty reliably and put me most of the way to a Battalion on troops
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2018, 03:27:24 PM »
Yeah, I always run 2x5 DAs (along with 5 rangers to fill a battalion detachment) with dual-wielding exarchs. I think DAs are in a really good place right now. I'm thinking of dropping the rangers for another 5-man strong DA unit. Rangers just don't perform well offensively if you just take one small unit. However, I use them to sit on an objective in my deployment zone and fire on characters with the long range.  My DAs usually just run along the rest of the army. They are really good for finishing off a unit that only has a few models remaining, or to whittle something down over the course of a few turns.
A 5-man DA unit isn't big enough of a threat to be prioritized, meaning they tend to survive a bit longer. And if they do get picked off first, it means something stronger in the army lives. Either way, it just works.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2018, 07:12:46 PM »
Dire Avengers are actually quite good in 8th ed, their better armor than guardians does matter again. The min size unit is good because you get the Exarch for free and fills out the troop slots.

With the 8th ed transport rules, I like taking 5 Dire avengers along with some other small aspect unit in the same serpent, I might even be able to cram in a character or 2 too.
5 Fire Dragons
5 Howling Banshees
2x3 Dark Reapers
are all good choices.

For example unloading Dragons to destroy a transport, then shoot it's cargo with the Avengers. Similarly the Banshees can drop out with the Avengers letting the Avengers soften up a target, then charge in with the banshees making sure the Avengers are safe from return fire (usually).
Reapers can hide in the serpent against Alpha strikes.
In all these scenarios if the Serpent explodes the Avengers are cheap enough to take the casualties, even if you could cram in 3 Reapers with 8 Stormies to make that even less costly losses.

On foot the avengers can still often draw first blood in a shootout even against 24" gun armies due to battle focus and their above average Movement stat. They are not bad as a sacrificial unit either because their improved overwatch let's them retreat from combat to enforce new charges, creating more overwatch fire.

Rather than taking a Shimmershield, Asurmen is not a bad choice especially if you play Biel-Tan style with lots of aspect warriors, not that I find invulnerable saves that important in 8th ed.
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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2018, 05:25:16 AM »
So I have just been using them wrong all along! OK so dire avengers are a really agressive unit then.

Basically the tactic would be advancing them on the board being in serpent or on foot and do clean up duty for what other unit are left alive after an initial assault. Interesting. Then I should set up a strike force of avenger, banshee and dragon? Supported by a warlock and a farseer maybe? Or simply an autarch for the reroll to hit bubble.

What would in your opinion, be the best support unit to go along avengers? A shame warlock have been nerfed so much ><.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2018, 06:34:53 AM »
I like to run a unit like this sometimes:

5 Fire Dragons, 1 is Exarch with DB Flamer
5 Dire Avengers, 1 is Exarch with 2 Catapults
Wave Serpent with 3 Shuriken Cannons, Vectored Engines
Total cost: 328 pts

This unit has the tools needed to deal with most threats, and can get into the right location to bring its firepower to bear.
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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2018, 06:37:28 AM »
Hey Grizz. Reece from Frontline Gaming is a massive fan of Dire Avengers and runs them against hardcore tourney lists all the time. He actually takes 6 units of 5 led by Asurmen on foot with the Biel-Tan Craftworld trait. Sometimes he even runs them with Asurmen and the Avatar! Reece of course is a phenomenally good player, but regardless Avengersare nasty good, but you gotta run them aggressive. Just run and gun with them, stick to cover when you can.

Yeah I'd recommend an Autarch at the least to lead them, but I actually would go with Asurmen if you really want to get the most out of them. While Reece likes them MSU on foot (thats his style) I'd actually like them 2x10 in Wave Serpents with (x3 shuriken cannons) Asurmen and a Farseer. Doom being the most important power to use in conjunction with them. With that much firepower even big boys like Mortarion need to look out.

Glad to see you trying different things Grizz. IMO Avengers are fantastic. Go for it!
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Offline Fenris

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2018, 07:29:22 AM »
I would say Autarch is the best character to go along in a serpent with MSU aspects, unless you are running Biel-Tan because you already get the Autarchs aura on all your shuriken weapons anyway.

For Biel-Tan I'd say Asurmen, if you have an Ulthwé detachment as well, you can take Eldrad, that Ulthwé detachment is still a good way to get free spirit stones on the wave serpents.

I've been running:
2x5 Dire Avengers, 2x catapults
6 Fire Dragons, Fire pike
5 Howling Banshees
in 2 Wave serpents with 3x Shuriken cannons.

Autarch with Faolchu's wing & banshee mask would work great in the Dragon/Avenger serpent with this, so would 3x Smite Eldrad (in either serpent) (or WoA + 2x Smite) with the serpent shields and to [overload] them, is also great, should you need to rack up some mortal wounds.
Having [doom] and [guide] at your disposal from Eldrad is not hurting either, remember they are still ON when firing overwatch with the Avengers.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2018, 09:56:35 PM »
I would say Autarch is the best character to go along in a serpent with MSU aspects, unless you are running Biel-Tan because you already get the Autarchs aura on all your shuriken weapons anyway.

For Biel-Tan I'd say Asurmen, if you have an Ulthwé detachment as well, you can take Eldrad, that Ulthwé detachment is still a good way to get free spirit stones on the wave serpents.

I've been running:
2x5 Dire Avengers, 2x catapults
6 Fire Dragons, Fire pike
5 Howling Banshees
in 2 Wave serpents with 3x Shuriken cannons.

Autarch with Faolchu's wing & banshee mask would work great in the Dragon/Avenger serpent with this, so would 3x Smite Eldrad (in either serpent) (or WoA + 2x Smite) with the serpent shields and to [overload] them, is also great, should you need to rack up some mortal wounds.
Having [doom] and [guide] at your disposal from Eldrad is not hurting either, remember they are still ON when firing overwatch with the Avengers.


"3x Smite Eldrad" is not a thing. If you look at the rules for the psychic phase, it very clearly says that a psyker can't try to cast the same spell more than once in a turn, and Smite is no exception. This restriction applies generally, not just in matched play. Take a look under 2. Psychic Phase > 2. Make a Psychic Test: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Primer-English.pdf
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Offline Fenris

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2018, 04:01:25 AM »

@Blazinghand: Nope, the psychic focus specifically gives permission to cast Smite several times with the same psyker in matched play.

"With the exception of Smite, each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn, rather than once per psyker per turn"

in matched play:
"With the exception of Smite, each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn"

in narrative & open play:
"each psychic power can be attempted only once per psyker per turn"

The thing with Eldrad is as long as he's successful he neutralizes the penalty for casting multiple Smite.

If GW indended to only give other powers than smite just a little bit more freedom, they should have worded it differently, not starting the sentence with "With the exception of... "

They would have written something like:
"Each Psychic power can only be cast once per turn regardless of how many psykers has the same power."

But this is a discussion for the rules thread.

Either way Eldrad is a good choice for Dire Avengers, here's an example list that could work well with Dire Avengers:

Biel-Tan battalion

Asurmen 175p
Autarch 87p
-Reaper launcher, Faolchu's wing, banshee mask.

5x Dire Avengers 64p
-Exarch, 2x catapults.
5x Dire Avengers 64p
-Exarch, 2x catapults.
5x Dire Avengers 64p
-Exarch, 2x catapults.

5x Fire Dragons 123p
-Exarch, Fire pike.
5x Howling Banshees 68p
-Exarch with executioner.
5x Striking Scorpions 82p
-Exarch with claw.

3x Shining Spears 95p
-Exarch with starlance.
5x Swooping Hawks 72p
-Exarch, hawks talon, powersword.
5x Warp Spiders 102p
-Exarch, 2x spinners, powerblades.

996p

Ulthwé battalion

Eldrad Ulthran 150p
Autarch skyrunner (Warlord: Fate reader) 112p
-Banshee mask, laser lance, avenger shuriken catapult, twin shuriken catapults.

10x Guardians 97p
-Shuriken Cannon.
8x Storm Guardians 56p
5x Rangers 60p

2x War Walker 180p
-2x Brightlance.

3x Wave Serpent 402p
-3x Shuriken cannon.

997p
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2018, 06:20:46 AM »

@Blazinghand: Nope, the psychic focus specifically gives permission to cast Smite several times with the same psyker in matched play.

"With the exception of Smite, each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn, rather than once per psyker per turn"

in matched play:
"With the exception of Smite, each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn"

in narrative & open play:
"each psychic power can be attempted only once per psyker per turn"

The thing with Eldrad is as long as he's successful he neutralizes the penalty for casting multiple Smite.

If GW indended to only give other powers than smite just a little bit more freedom, they should have worded it differently, not starting the sentence with "With the exception of... "

They would have written something like:
"Each Psychic power can only be cast once per turn regardless of how many psykers has the same power."

But this is a discussion for the rules thread.


You're incorrect as all of your citations have to do with total casting of powers across the army. In matched play there is a restriction on all powers other than Smite that an army can only try to cast that power once. The restriction I am talking about is not only happening in matched play but always happens in all forms of playing Warhammer 40K and has to do with how many times a single unit can attempt to cast the power. The rule that limit each caster individually to only attempt each power once is not part of the rules that distinguish matched play from open play and is part of the core rules.

Even if you should so happen to disagree with me, I highly doubt that any tournament organizer or serious player of the game would agree with your interpretation given that it is clearly spelled out in the rules for the psychic phase how this works. I would never attempt to the cast Smite multiple times with the same caster in a tournament and I expect that any attempts to do so would result in the tournament organizer telling you you could not.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2018, 09:38:45 AM »

You're incorrect as all of your citations have to do with total casting of powers across the army. In matched play there is a restriction on all powers other than Smite that an army can only try to cast that power once. The restriction I am talking about is not only happening in matched play but always happens in all forms of playing Warhammer 40K and has to do with how many times a single unit can attempt to cast the power. The rule that limit each caster individually to only attempt each power once is not part of the rules that distinguish matched play from open play and is part of the core rules.

Even if you should so happen to disagree with me, I highly doubt that any tournament organizer or serious player of the game would agree with your interpretation given that it is clearly spelled out in the rules for the psychic phase how this works. I would never attempt to the cast Smite multiple times with the same caster in a tournament and I expect that any attempts to do so would result in the tournament organizer telling you you could not.

Well, not that my local TO's are that serious, which is a known flaw, they still got this one right.
I think the restriction you are looking at is:
"A psyker (singular) cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once in a turn."
The emphasis on singular is my doing.

You then accept matched play is more restricted than open play or narrative. Agreed?
In those two kind of games(open play and narrative), 2 farseers are clearly allowed to both attempt to cast doom, both only once each.
In matched play only one of those farseers would be allowed to attempt to cast doom, hence more restricted.
However smite is exempt from both restrictions in matched play in order to allow them to at least cast smite, when there are too many psykers on the table.

The other possible interpretation is that matched play is less restricted and by that allowing 2 farseers to both cast doom in matched play, because the once per psyker restriction is lifted. Here is where smite would instead be restricted to once per psyker, because it is exempt from having it's restriction lifted.

The reason I think the first interpretation is the correct one is because it's singular.

PS:
Actually the first interpretation is the correct one, and the old FAQ is why:

Q: If the Strength from Death ability is triggered, and
I choose to manifest a psychic power as if it were the
Psychic phase, can I attempt to manifest a power that
another psyker in my army has attempted to manifest
this turn?
A: Yes. Note, however, that if you are playing a matched
play game, then the Psychic Focus rule still applies,
in which case your psyker cannot attempt to manifest
a psychic power that has already been attempted
by another psyker in your army this turn (with the
exception of Smite).
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Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2018, 05:13:20 PM »
OK... All the smiting shenanigans are not really my style so let's get back to the DA.

FenrirAce the list you propose certainly is a cheeky agressive one but I'm gonna put out some reserve from a personal point. I do not play tourny yet, and prefer fluff oriented list (kinda within the realm of my models), therefore biel tan for every one. Second, I don't like mcu, it always felt wrong to me, especially for DA, as they are supposed to be the most numerous, ps I don't have azurmen either, so that's not helping ahaha.

Concider in I have 10 DA, 10 banshee, 6 fire dragons, 1 serpent, 3 warlocks, 1 farseer, one Autarch.

I was thinking about something like:

Foot DA with banshee running alongside them.
Dragon in serpent with 1 farseer and 2 warlock, probably the last few place in the serpent filled with Dark Reapers, to protect them turn one in case of no initiative. Maybe even 3 warlock inside the serpent.
Psychic power would be 1 jinx, 1 quicken, 1 conceal. The farseer probably doom and somethings else, guide maybe or fortune.

With biel-tan it could work well I think. I can buff the reaper concealment, buff the da wounding and everything else actually, use quicken to get everything in range for sure. Jinx the excessively annoying thing to kill, and guide or fortune for either extra damage insurance, or survivability depending on the choice before the game.

This could defenetly be a strong blitzkrieg type of combo. But that's quite a few point in the same place, I'm gonna have to make sure my opponent have things to shoot at somewhere else or nothing will happen out of this.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2018, 06:24:29 PM »
I think that Dire Avengers really do benefit a lot from a ride unless they have Asurmen buffing them. They have better armor save than guardians but are fairly expensive and rather fragile. A fun mixed biel-tan force might include a mixture of:

2x5 Dire Avengers in a Bright Lance Wave Serpent with CTM
5-8 Fire Dragons in a Shuriken Cannon Wave Serpent with Vectored Engines

as its components. The Wave Serpent for each aspect warrior unit is equipped to fight differently than the aspect warriors, so that each transport contains both a threat to infantry and a threat to vehicles
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Offline Partninja

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2018, 06:42:49 PM »
Are the models you listed all that you own? If so, I wouldn't worry about going min squads on your DA for while. It would make tactical sense for them to form smaller fire teams for many reasons. I really suggest picking up more DAs (look on eBay for good deals) and/or some guardians to fill out your battalion. Some Serpents would go a long way as well easily bringing you up to around 1500 points.

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2018, 07:29:46 PM »
So, been reading over this thread, and went to look at GW to see how much some more DA's would cost me as I think they could be good and fun.... and I can't seem to find them on the us site.... Am I missing something, or are they getting new sculpts or.... what?
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2018, 07:38:07 PM »
So, been reading over this thread, and went to look at GW to see how much some more DA's would cost me as I think they could be good and fun.... and I can't seem to find them on the us site.... Am I missing something, or are they getting new sculpts or.... what?

I don't see them on the GW website either. I've mostly bought mine at my local game store.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: The subject of Dire Avenger.
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2018, 10:25:04 PM »
Maybe they've taken them down temporarily while they rebox them? Maybe they've realized no one wants to pay the same price (actually more) for five models that we used to pay for a box of 10....

Luckily I got three full squads worth right before they changed to to the five man boxes.

 


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