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Offline bca11

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FAQ and Dark Reapers
« on: March 7, 2018, 09:14:47 PM »
Does anyone have any theories as to how badly GW plans to nerf dark reapers? What kind of limitations would you guys think are reasonable while still leaving them as a viable unit? I very much enjoy my reapers, and while I don't mind not being able to spam them, as I already don't, I'd hate to see them go from such a highly effective unit to one that has no place in a competitive army.

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #1 on: March 7, 2018, 09:30:33 PM »
Well, the Big FAQening is due this month so you shouldn't have to wait too long.
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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #2 on: March 7, 2018, 09:47:36 PM »
Ynnari is what makes then broken in my experience. Being able to shoot them twice a turn as well as being able to use CWE stratagems in a Ynnari list. The latter is easily fixed by having them lose the access to CWE strats in a Ynnari force. They need to create a bunch of Ynnari stratagems they can use instead as well.

Double anything is just strong.

I hope they don't see a points increase but would not be surprised.

Offline bca11

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #3 on: March 7, 2018, 10:02:36 PM »
Ynnari is what makes then broken in my experience. Being able to shoot them twice a turn...

This is my view as well. I run pure craftworlds with a 10 man unit of reapers. I do well with such a list, but I don't consider it broken by any means, and certainly don't win all my games with minimal effort. My hope is that they nerf the application of soulburst to Ynnari reapers and leave the craftworld reapers intact.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #4 on: March 8, 2018, 01:16:10 AM »
I think the quick-and-dirty Ynnari nerf (which may not even be needed if GW cares more about book missions than ITC--note that it's not Ynnari who placed well in Heat 3 GT) is probably something like "ASURYANI, DRUKHARI, CORSAIRS, and HARLEQUINS in YNNARI Detachments may not be the target of stratagems specific to those factions" which would clean up the big issues with Warriors of the Raging Wind and Lighting-Fast Reactions being used on Ynnari Asuryani units.

Pure Asuryani has not actually done well in the way Ynnari has. Simply spamming Dark Reapers and Shining Spears doesn't actually win tournaments, it's being able to shoot twice with a 9-elf Dark Reaper unit and fight twice with a 9-elf Shining Spear unit while using all the stratagems on them that is strong.
« Last Edit: March 8, 2018, 01:17:12 AM by Blazinghand »
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Offline Alexxk

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #5 on: March 8, 2018, 05:42:35 AM »
Like Blazinghand wrote, Ynnari Stratagem abuse will be shut down for sure in my opinnion. Also beeing able to put ynnari craftworlders in a wave serpent from another detachment will not work anymore I guess! But we are on the same point as when Ynnari came out: soulburst is nefed a lot by now and the double moves are still considered OP. I am looking forward to the time when plastic sisters come with a codex and wreck all the faces with double actions.

The thing that reapers have what makes them imbalanced at their pointcost is that they allways hit on 3s. I think it would be fine to change it that they only get that bonus if they stand still. If they do this, their pointcost is actually fine imho, maybe put them up to 30-32points per model and they will still be a strong choice.

On the other hand, I read a post on reddit where someone compared the "new" tau riptide with dark reapers. He does about more damage pero point if hes not hurt. Has more wounds, better save everything. SO maybe the balance goes into the IMBA directions and everything gets stronger.


Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #6 on: March 8, 2018, 12:28:55 PM »
I think we should all abandon hope.
If GW has decided to nerf the reapers because they are overpowered in some way - rest assured that they won't address the actual problem. Instead, they will just make them so expensive to field that they become obsolete. That's the easy, cheap way, so that's how they'll do it. Personally, I think Inescapable Accuracy is the problem (the rule being too strong), but it wouldn't surprise me that they leave it unchanged. Instead, I think they'll just up the point cost with 50% or something ridiculous like that.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #7 on: March 8, 2018, 01:17:34 PM »
I think we should all abandon hope.
If GW has decided to nerf the reapers because they are overpowered in some way - rest assured that they won't address the actual problem. Instead, they will just make them so expensive to field that they become obsolete. That's the easy, cheap way, so that's how they'll do it. Personally, I think Inescapable Accuracy is the problem (the rule being too strong), but it wouldn't surprise me that they leave it unchanged. Instead, I think they'll just up the point cost with 50% or something ridiculous like that.

An easy fix to Inescapable Accuracy would be to make it something like "Dark Reapers never hit worse than on a 4+" so that it still shows off the cool targeting computers they have built-in, but allows for some mitigation of their accuracy. However, I don't think Inescapable Accuracy is the problem. Dark Reapers have not seemed to be a problem outside of Ynnari lists.
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #8 on: March 8, 2018, 02:14:39 PM »
Have to agree with the majority here: Ynnari are the problem.

I think the quick-and-dirty Ynnari nerf (which may not even be needed if GW cares more about book missions than ITC--note that it's not Ynnari who placed well in Heat 3 GT) is probably something like "ASURYANI, DRUKHARI, CORSAIRS, and HARLEQUINS in YNNARI Detachments may not be the target of stratagems specific to those factions" which would clean up the big issues with Warriors of the Raging Wind and Lighting-Fast Reactions being used on Ynnari Asuryani units.

We don't even need a rule with a wording that complex. In fact, all that is needed is to explicitly state that units in an Ynnari detachment gain YNNARI keyword but lose the ASURYANI/DRUKHARI/HARLEQUINS and <Craftworld> keywords. This would automatically make all stratagems not applicable to Ynnari, as well as solve the problem of transports shared across detachments.

That said, I also do feel that the Alaitoc attribute is kind of OP by itself. Statistically, having your whole 2000 pts force at -1 to hit equals to playing with roughly +300 pts worth of extra models. For comparison, Ulthwe bonus amounts to having roughly +190 pts worth of extra models, and the value of the other three is far less than even that.


Speaking specifically of Dark Reapers, they are indeed a bit underpriced.
In the Index a unit of 5 came at 180 pts - and even then they felt like a decent value for points. Granted, that was in comparison with other Craftworlds Index units and other Index armies, which were mostly weaker than their newer codex equivalents - so I don't think Reapers really deserve to cost that much now. But the cost of about 150 pts for a unit of 5 would probably feel more appropriate than their current cost.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #9 on: March 8, 2018, 02:46:12 PM »
Have to agree with the majority here: Ynnari are the problem.

I think the quick-and-dirty Ynnari nerf (which may not even be needed if GW cares more about book missions than ITC--note that it's not Ynnari who placed well in Heat 3 GT) is probably something like "ASURYANI, DRUKHARI, CORSAIRS, and HARLEQUINS in YNNARI Detachments may not be the target of stratagems specific to those factions" which would clean up the big issues with Warriors of the Raging Wind and Lighting-Fast Reactions being used on Ynnari Asuryani units.

We don't even need a rule with a wording that complex. In fact, all that is needed is to explicitly state that units in an Ynnari detachment gain YNNARI keyword but lose the ASURYANI/DRUKHARI/HARLEQUINS and <Craftworld> keywords. This would automatically make all stratagems not applicable to Ynnari, as well as solve the problem of transports shared across detachments.

The downside to this is that a Ynnari Dire Avengers unit would not be able to go inside a Ynnari Wave Serpent, since the Wave Serpent only accepts <CRAFTWORLD> units. You could do something like what GSC does with IG, forcing the Blood Brothers Regiment which has no special rules, which might solve the transport problem, or you could give Yvraine's transport-jacking ability to all Craftworld Eldar trying to get inside Craftworld vehicles, but then things get silly.
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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #10 on: March 8, 2018, 04:04:18 PM »
If they did significantly increase the points on Reapers, I hope they would also adjust the points for other units to bring viable alternatives to the table. Fire Prisms have a similar utility role, but do it worse in my experience. Shining Spears have a similar role for me as well, but doing it at closer range (though we might see changes to them as well). These can all threaten vehicles and infantry alike. Would be nice is Vypers and Walkers (or their armament) were a little less expensive so that they could be better used for anti-tank or anti-infantry roles. Would be nice if the Falcon was usable at all. Other units just need to be more competitive in my view. 

150/300 for units of 5/10 would still be pretty fair and wouldn't completely ruin any of my lists that use them (in that I don't have to adjust too much to make the points up). For me the boon of the Reapers is the consistent damage output (flat damage, no D3 or D6 rolls that can go bad) and obviously the consistent accuracy compared to other options. This is even outside Ynnari (which I don't play) or Alaitoc forces (since they're good in just about any list due to the two factors above).

The Alaitoc, and similar army bonuses should be contingent upon being in cover to help balance it. This makes sense to me as they are hiding better with their surroundings as apposed to being really dodgy like a flyer. You could also remove the 12" rule in this case since it now requires stricter positioning requirements. It would also facilitate using other types of terrain other than pure LOS blocking stuff I see all over.

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #11 on: March 8, 2018, 06:02:37 PM »
Fire dragons and shining spears are such obvious choices to take, something does need to happen, as those units are both absolutely fantastic. Preventing Ynnari units from taking a craft world keyword, would be a good step.

But, there are other things that need to be changed too. Hive tyrants need to be addressed, as well as the dead men walking deathbed strategem. That strategem is the most broken thing in the game right now.
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Offline magenb

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2018, 04:26:52 PM »
On its own -1 hit army wide is a solid options but other armies get access to it as well, so I'm not that fussed.

Yes, Dark reapers are brutal in Ynnari armies, honestly they should be paying the index cost for them. That coupled with having to take a named HQ and the nerf to soul burst, they should calm down at least until their codex drops.

I wouldn't make any changes to CWE Dark Reapers until after all the codexes have dropped, their is alot of firepower comming with Tau and if you've seen the Necron leak, then you know there is a lot more to come.

Offline SeekingOne

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2018, 03:38:17 PM »
A source that has provided me with some fairly correct rumours before, hints that the main target of the upcoming FAQ would be "soup" lists. As in, it is possible that only armies that have one and the same faction keyword(s) across all units will have access to any codex stratagems at all. So, in order to have access to stratagems we'll have to play mono-Alaitoc, mono-Ulthwe, etc.

I personally find it a bit hard to believe, but if it's true - it will probably solve the issue with Ynnari/Alaitoc soups once and for all and specific units might not even get nerfed at all.
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Offline bca11

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2018, 08:57:36 PM »
That seems a bit harsh. I could see preventing Ynnari from using CWE strategems by taking 3 warlocks in a supreme command detachment, but what's the harm in something like a Saim Hann jetbike force with Alaitoc ground troops? Surely them allying wouldn't make them forget the craftworld strategems they mutually know.

In any case I hope you're at least slightly off, and that it's the lesser nerf. There are some good fluffy lists that could be made with craftworld alliances that wouldn't be usable in competitive play under those restrictions.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2018, 08:59:59 PM by bca11 »

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2018, 09:32:41 PM »
A source that has provided me with some fairly correct rumours before, hints that the main target of the upcoming FAQ would be "soup" lists. As in, it is possible that only armies that have one and the same faction keyword(s) across all units will have access to any codex stratagems at all. So, in order to have access to stratagems we'll have to play mono-Alaitoc, mono-Ulthwe, etc.

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Offline Battle Master Lomandalis

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2018, 10:46:31 PM »
An all or nothing solution like that might be going too far.  Restricting so that units can only be be affected by stratagems that their detachment generates is a more reasonable solution.  Because aside from Eldar, the only faction that really comes to mind that can abuse the stratagems working for multiple codexes is Chaos.  The Imperium, the most numerous faction soup available, doesn't have that ability.  All of the stratagems to date (that I am aware of) specify regiment or chapter.

In all honesty, I don't see GW going to that extreme because of how restrictive it is.  They are still very much a company that is based around "I want to play with that cool thing," but that extreme fix would really put a damper on that.

Now, if they were to give a larger benefit to running a pure detachment...
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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2018, 10:16:32 AM »
Now, if they were to give a larger benefit to running a pure detachment...

I'm wondering if we might see either a Command Point penalty for mixing and matching detachments (-1 CP for different detachment) or a bonus for running pure.  Would be relatively easy to justify from the perspective of the ease of command when all forces share a common background rather than forces from all across different subfactions.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2018, 11:07:17 PM »
I think this edition has gotten enough patches already, but with a faulty core system, problems are bound to arise sooner rather than later.
Fixing the Dark Reapers or the Ynnari will solve nothing, just shift the unbalance.

I think GW will have to rethink their codex system, you simply can't just bolt-on rules on top of rules until they make no sense.
A suggestion would be to keep all points cost for all armies in a separate book, have the rules in one book, then have codexes with special scenarios with special characters, for a lot of fluff flavor.
Most special characters should then have a base generic character to build on, so the models could still be used, for example Eldrad could be used as a farseer.

Players can then of course make up their own special scenarios where special characters can be included, they are simply just not suited for competitive tournament play. Forge the narrative, imagination is the limit, or whatever.

This would force the fluff writers to write good enough fluff to get the codexes sold, it would be easy to update points, rather than calling it a new edition, by releasing a new point cost book. Even simpler if it's done digital, which goes on to a digital armybuilder application.

A lot of players in my local gaming club grows bored fast on the standard missions, so they'll still run and buy every new codex ASAP, simply for the new scenarios.

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Re: FAQ and Dark Reapers
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2018, 11:52:13 PM »
I think this edition has gotten enough patches already, but with a faulty core system, problems are bound to arise sooner rather than later.
The core system is probably one of the best core systems they have done for this game.  It's simple, straight forward, and easy to understand.

I think GW will have to rethink their codex system, you simply can't just bolt-on rules on top of rules until they make no sense.
A suggestion would be to keep all points cost for all armies in a separate book, have the rules in one book, then have codexes with special scenarios with special characters, for a lot of fluff flavor.
Considering GW is a business, I'm fairly certain that will never happen.  They want to sell codexes, and if they followed that then the sales would plummet.  I know that I would not buy a codex under those circumstances, and neither would the majority of the people in my gaming group.

Most special characters should then have a base generic character to build on, so the models could still be used, for example Eldrad could be used as a farseer.

Players can then of course make up their own special scenarios where special characters can be included, they are simply just not suited for competitive tournament play. Forge the narrative, imagination is the limit, or whatever.
You have literally described 40k for the past 20 years at least.  Special characters were, for the most part, just suped up versions of a model that already exists, and people have always been encouraged to create their own scenarios.

... it would be easy to update points, rather than calling it a new edition, by releasing a new point cost book. Even simpler if it's done digital, which goes on to a digital armybuilder application.
So... Chapter Approved.  Granted, they don't have their own army building program, but they've said one is in the works.  And I am not at all dubious about the quality of it, remembering the last one they released back in 4th.
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