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Author Topic: Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?  (Read 2236 times)

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Offline Cavalier

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Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?
« on: January 26, 2018, 02:35:20 PM »
Hey gang. So for years now I've relied on my Hornets for long ranged tank busting duties and sadly they just aren't getting the job done anymore. So I'm looking to add some tank busting power to my Alaitoc themed army with a Crimson Hunter or a Hemlock. I already have a Crimson Hunter which is ready to go, but I have a second unassembled which can either be a Hemlock or Crimson Hunter and I'm not sure which direction to go in.

The auto-hits and wounding on 3's of most heavy armor seems fantastic on the Hemlock but you are DANGER close with that sucker. I love the utility of the mindshock pod and horrify that'll give my anti-infantry efforts, but I'm not sure if I'm putting my life in my hands at that close range.

On the other hand I think having 2 Alaitoc Crimson Hunters at -2 to hit roaming my backfield with all that pulse laser/bright lance goodness would really give me some great anti-tank...

But I just can't decide! What do you guys think I'd be fascinated to know. I'm really in a bind I'm battling IG players left right and center and I need some help busting those Leman Russ. They will be supported by a big unit of Reapers and most likely Wraithguard... so any opinions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 02:36:26 PM by Cavalier »
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2018, 02:50:39 PM »
I think the Crimson Hunter (and especially the Crimson Hunter Exarch, whose ability Marksman's Eye increases his damage output) is a great tank hunter. A Hemlock Wraithfighter costs about 30% more than a CH, but assuming you can position it so its Smite hits the enemy, it does about 30% more damage. But a CH Exarch is more cost-efficient than a CH, and slightly outperforms the Hemlock, point over point, when fighting tanks.


Factors in the Hemlock's favor:

1. It's more flexible. The D-scythes are a more versatile weapon, it has the mindshock pod, and it can cast a spell instead of smiting, meaning it can do a broader variety of things.

2. It's better against T8 and T6. The high Str of the Hemlock's weapons mean it outperforms CHs for the cost against T8 and T6 since it wounds those enemies more easily than the CH's weapons.

3. Enemies being hard to hit doesn't matter. Hemlock auto-hits.

4. Mobility. Hemlock can (and probably should) Advance with no penalty every turn.

5. Reliabilty. Hemlock performance does not degrade as it gets wounded.

Areas in which the CH is superior:

1. Fighting T7 tanks. CH Exarch outperforms Hemlock for the price against T7, normal CH matches it.

2. No reliance on spellcasting. Under the beta rules, multiple smites are unreliable. Also, you can Deny The Witch a Smite, but you can't Deny The Witch a Pulse Laser shot.

3. Positional concerns. CHs can hang back, they don't need to come within melta range to shoot normally. Also, a particularly canny player might wall out your Hemlocks with really good screening (though this would be hard).

4. Durability. CHs give you more wounds per point. The Spirit Stones on the Hemlock partially make up for this.

5. Command Point Expenditure. In a crucial moment, you can re-roll a damage roll of 1 for a Bright Lance on a CH. An amazing choice! But on a Hemlock re-rolling a crucial to-wound roll isn't as big of a swing.

6. Working with Asurmen. CHs are Aspect Warriors and benefit from Asurmen's invulnerable save, hilariously enough.
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2018, 03:03:32 PM »
Brilliant breakdown Blazinghand... Yeah my issue is particularly with Imperial Guard. I'm just having a hell of a time taking down their tanks. So specifically its those T8 heavy tanks they have. So hmmm the Hemlock with Smite + and its Scythes is doing significantly more damage and its unquestionably mroe reliable its hits. That is big...

How do you factor the added defense of an Alaitoc Crimson Hunter? That seems so nice... but maybe I should focus more on delivering that killing strike early on, then hanging around in the middle turns.

Like I said I'll be rocking a Crimson Hunter regardless... so that with the Reapers rocking in at -2 to hit at most times is a pretty solid backfield fire base... so maybe the more direct punch against those T8 Heavy tanks which have been giving me such fits is the way to go.

Fantastic breakdown Blazinghand... thanks a lot. Any further thoughts you have on what I posted above would be immensely appreciated. Thanks!
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2018, 03:30:11 PM »
I think a Crimson Hunter is probably a pretty durable unit if you are Alaitoc against Guard. With the Alaitoc Fieldcraft and the Hard to Hit together, it's pretty tough for a guardsman-accuracy attack to actually hit it. I think a Crimson Hunter Exarch could reasonably live for most of a game against a Guardsman army. A Hemlock, on the other hand, doesn't work quite as well with Alaitoc, because it has to come so close to shoot. The enemy will be able to come within 12" and shoot at only -1. Especially vulnerable to Meltaguns and so on.
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2018, 03:49:15 PM »
Fascinating... yeah the Crimson Hunter is almost like 7th ed Hornet in terms of range, rate of fire and role but much, much harder to hit when Alaitoc. When I come to think of it... its that exact thing I'm missing in my army at present. A fast, backfield option that spits out high strength fire power capable of downing tanks.

A little Doom support could also make twin Crimson Hunters very, very reliable while hanging out at super comfortable distance... and I'm actually quite concerned with getting my Hemlock boxed out by tanks and infantry as they all sort of blob around each other...

Plus I have a habit of running into Pask in a Punisher like every game... which can make short work of that Hemlock even with just a little bit of support and good dice.

I think my decision is made... and it'll be a bit more thematic for my Y'nnari themed Corsairs then the more rare Hemlock. Nightshade Interceptors inbound! Thanks Blazinghand you really helped me. You are a champion!
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Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2018, 06:43:47 PM »
G'day, Cavalier/Blazinghand!
Have, also, two unassembled Eldar flyers and had the same decision to make. Have decided to build one of each.
 
1- Rules change and don't want to be left with two duds in 9th ed.
2- Can't speak for anyone else, but with my gaming circle, there is no such thing as a backfield.
   With the amount of teleporter/infiltrators/jump packs and so on.

Also was impressed by you break down, BH. Will use your tactics to there utmost... Pointy ears forever!! 

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2018, 06:46:30 PM »
I actually also have a flyer I am planning to assemble. Since the only difference is in the fins and guns, I'm considering magnetizing the model so it can act as either a Crimson Hunter, a Crimson Hunter Exarch, or a Hemlock Wraithfighter.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2018, 06:52:40 PM »
I don't have any stats to add that haven't already been mentioned but...Magnets fix everything.

Offline Cavalier

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Re: Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2018, 12:35:18 PM »
@Saim-Dann- Hey bud. Yeah I hear you. My thing is though, I dont mind picking up some new flyers in the future if I want to have some Hemlocks. Also I sort of buy stuff for specific lists, so I've got this specific need now I dont mind make the commitment. My primary opponents are all Guard at the moments so I'm not dealing with two many deepstrikers and also I've got my Farseer+Dark Reaper combo ready to drop that intercept stratagem for anything dropping down. Your advice is very sound, but I've got  super specific need, this totally fits it so I pulled the trigger. I actually already built the unassembled one and it went together so easy. Only took me an hour... can't wait to get it into the Project Logs... these things are gonna look nasty in all black. Thanks though bud  ;D ;D ;D

@Blazinghand- Yeah thats a good call, but like I said the magnetization process seems like a super pain after watching some videos. I can always get a Hemlock in the future and besdies... I think I'd rather have my Hemlock be Y'nnari rather than the Alaitoc themed Corsairs I'm running... so I think I'd want them in different colors so a more permenant build is OK for me, since I have 2 different Eldar armies essentially. One in all black, the other in red and gold.
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Offline Saim-Dann

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Re: Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2018, 01:01:48 PM »
G'day, Cavalier!
Glad you made the choice your comfortable with, mate. Your right! CH's look amazing in black. Another reason I'm having both flyers, that I forgot to mention before, is that it will give the Eldar more flexibility. Different choices for different opponents/lists.

Can see your side of the conversation though. Facing mostly IG would reduce your need for variety. Are they all armour heavy list, Cavalier? None of them are horde orientated? Looking forward to the project pics... Pointy ears forever!!   

Offline magenb

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Re: Tank Busting with Flyers: Hemlock or Crimson Hunter?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2018, 02:57:25 PM »
Since the codex dropped Hemlocks have lost a bit of luster, they don't really benefit that much from any of the craftworld attributes and some of their useful tricks have been nerfed thanks to changes to spells. It is still a good option, but I find you have to build a list with it in mind, where as crimson hunters can just be dropped into most lists.

A single crimson hunter I find can be shrugged off, sure it hurts, but its not enough to waste heavy weapon fire at it especially at -2. Taking two means you can apply a fair amount of pain that they have to do something about.

CHE with starcannons is an interesting option too, chances are you have reapers anyway and with the split fire rules, it is certainly worth tinkering with.



 


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