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Author Topic: Thousand sons next ish  (Read 2116 times)

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Online Killersquid

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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2018, 09:02:45 AM »
Collectors edition codices are too expensive for what they are in my opinion, and this one is no exception.  Besides, I prefer the artwork of the standard Thousand Sons codex.  I'll order mine once it has actually been released.

That's sort of the point.

They are expensive, not for any practical reason, but because you want to show off. I love going to events with my fancy codex, while the plebs have their standard ones  ;D

But to each their own. Both covers look balling.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2018, 09:05:03 AM by Killersquid »
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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2018, 11:51:50 AM »
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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2018, 01:18:40 PM »
That's a much more useful article.  The psychic powers being highlighted look quite handy and there are some tactical ideas, particularly the section on shenanigans which look like fun.  The elephant in the room remains the cost though, which the author implies is going to remain high, so it very much depends on how high this actually turns out to be.
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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2018, 01:25:18 PM »
I'm going to guess the price will probably not change too much from the chaos marine codex. Hopefully,the flamer drops in points though.
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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #24 on: February 1, 2018, 11:49:42 AM »
Hey, Tzaangor again as who can get enough of these guys.
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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #25 on: February 1, 2018, 01:26:20 PM »
The final paragraph sums up my concerns better than I could myself.  I fear that, for Thousand Sons to be effective, it's going to be necessary to field Tzaangors, otherwise the army is likely to suffer from similar problems to those which have afflicted it over the course of previous recent editions.  This is disappointing, but unsurprising.  I will stick to my plan of building a pure Thousand Sons army though.
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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #26 on: February 1, 2018, 09:42:06 PM »
Yup. Thousand Sons aren't going to work on their own.

Then again, they never did anyway, so that's not new.

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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #27 on: February 1, 2018, 11:30:04 PM »
Thousand sons have always been a small elite army, and those sorts of forces can be hard to play. I do appreciate the addition of tzaangors to fill some gaps in the list. If you don't like those, you can easily take a daemons detachment, or summon deamons to get other units to fill the same role.

Screens, tarpits and cheap scoring units.

I think the scarab terminators could be very scary, and deepstriking rubrics with flamers combined with a sorcerer casting wartime can be deadly.

I wonder if they'll get access to predators. Two or three autocannon/lascannons predators and a big unit of tzaangors or horrors would be a very effective support element to a rubric focused force. Some screens and ranged anti-tank. I could see that working well. 
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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #28 on: February 2, 2018, 04:51:11 AM »
While I agree that small elite armies are supposed to be challenging to play well, if you look at other armies which would fit that description, notably the three other most specialised Chaos Legions (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and Death Guard), they, to the best of my knowledge, do not have to be propped up by a Beastmen equivalent to work properly.  This is my gripe.

I do agree that taking Tzeentch Daemons is an alternative way of dealing with this and is one which I am much more attracted to.  Again though, this is still indicative of it being overly difficult to field Thousand Sons as a stand alone army, which continues to suggest a fundamental problem with the design of the army.
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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #29 on: February 2, 2018, 07:26:01 AM »
Out of the armies you mentioned, no one plays world eaters or Emperors children. Khorne beserkers are taken as part of alpha legion, as they can get turn 1 charges. Otherwise, chaos armies are built mostly with cultists. I've not seen basic chaos marines on tables, or noise marines.

Death guard armies are just plauge zombies and warmachines. Again, no one takes anything in power armour besides heros.

It's just the fact that power armour models are not resilient enough for their cost, and die too easily.

Primaris marines are more along the lines of how marines sound be stat-wise, but they lack affordable transports.

The other big reason for screens, is that so many armies can deepstrike and charge turn 1, and you need a buffer from them charging and wipeing out your valuable units, and to also fill space to limit where deep-striking units can go.

It's hard to build a list without units to either 1) block turn 1 charges, or ,2) fill space to push back the 9" deployment for deep-striking units. Units which fulfil this role need to be expendible, and fairly cheap.

Now, I do see a lot of potential in rubric thousand sons being very competitive on the table. You just need to take support for the thousand sons. It's also 100% in character for chaos warlords to bring expendible chaff to soak bullets for them :-), and some ranged support from some sort of battle tank.

All you'd need is one squad of something just to keep your opponents honest, and it'd help keep you away from 'gotcha' moments. I know you hate the tzaangors (for whatever reason), but there are other options. Cultists, horrors come to mind. Even chaos spawn can work in a pinch.



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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #30 on: February 3, 2018, 06:35:14 AM »
It's not possible to claim that nobody plays an army.  To make such a claim would require a sample size that none of us on this forum has access to.  I prefer an evidence-based approach to making claims about who plays what, so the argument that you're making is essentially that nobody who you know of plays World Eaters and Emperor's Children.

I would find the current state of the game that you've outlined to be very depressing were it to be widely replicated across gaming communities.  Khorne Berzerkers don't have any business teaming up with Alpha Legion in the lore, and Chaos armies relying so heavily on Cultists might be okay for certain types of Chaos army, but for this to be the case across the board is concerning.  Death Guard and Plague Zombies at least makes sense, but it should not be at the expense of the actual Plague Marines.

If turn one charges are the way in which the game is played now and cheaper screening units of expendable chaff are the only way small elite armies like Thousand Sons can survive such attacks, then there is a massive issue with the rules mechanics and overall game balance in my opinion.

As for hating Tzaangors, that's way too strong, I just don't like them in a Thousand Sons codex or context.  As I've explained previously, they don't fit the narrative of the Thousand Sons at all and no amount of shoehorning by GW is going to be able to gloss over this issue.  I absolutely take your point that other units can be used in place of Tzaangors to fulfil a similar role, and it would be Tzeentch Horrors for me, since at least this can be explained logically, but being essentially cajoled into going down that route because of the current way in which the game plays seems an unsatisfactory state of affairs to me.
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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #31 on: February 3, 2018, 02:13:42 PM »
Irisado, Killersquid is right from a competitive and strategic perspective. Very few people (better?) play Emperor's Children and Berzerkers because power armored troops are just not good enough for the cost. This is a side-effect of the move from all-or-nothing AP to armor modifiers.

He is also right that speed-bump units are basically essential in order to prevent nasty, nasty first turn strikes against key units. This is a side-effect of the deletion of the scatter die and the advent of guaranteed first turn reserves.

These comprise the major problems the edition is dealing with (plus one more: the neutering of blast weapons) that have made horde armies fantastic and elite armies really, really hard to play.

Tzaangors are an attempt by GW to make Ksons more playable (while *also* selling more models). Personally, I would prefer that they simply make elite armies *more elite* (like Custodes) without bumping their per-model cost by much. That strikes me as a delicate beast, however, so I won't hold my breath for them to get that balance right.

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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #32 on: February 3, 2018, 03:42:16 PM »
I'm sure that he is right from a competitive perspective, but as you will no doubt recall, I rarely look at the game from that perspective alone :).  That's why I made the points which I did.  Incidentally, very few is much better, yes ;).

Like you, I'd rather that the balance were sorted out to address issues such as this that small elite armies, such as Thousand Sons face, in lieu of the decision that has been taken to add horde units to the codex as cannon fodder.  I agree that achieving this balance has always been difficult, but the rules mechanics seem to have made things more difficult for the Thousands than they were before, at least based on the material that GW has posted thus far.  The evidence, as always, will have to wait for in game experience.

I'm just disappointed because even in the sort of non-competitive games that I play, I can't see a way around the deep strike first turn attacks without using some kind of screening cannon fodder.  This is not the way I was intending to play this army.
« Last Edit: February 3, 2018, 03:44:37 PM by Irisado »
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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #33 on: February 4, 2018, 08:59:10 AM »
There are other ways to mitigate the first turn charges by other means,than using hordes.

Just gotta play with how the deepstrike rules work. Units have to be deployed over 9" away from your units, so by using other units to create 9" no go zones can protect your army.

Three single chaos spawn,or a couple of rhinos will be able to do the same thing. Just place them within 18" of eachother and your army core, and no enemy models can deploy anywhere nearby. At the very worst, they'll kill a chaos spawn.

This helps against folks who want to drop and rapid-fire, as well as drop and charge. The reason hordes are preferable, is that they last longer, and can do the job with less units.

Doesn't help against folks who can just run across the table conventionally, but as long as you don't deploy too far forward, you'll just shoot amphetamine parrot dead.

Thousand Sons don't have wealth of firepower, but their shooting is potent, and are very durable to both high ap, and small arms fire. 

If you get in rapid fire range, those inferno bolts will tear things apart.


Also, I have a copy of the book, if you folks have any questions. The art is pretty great in it!
« Last Edit: February 4, 2018, 10:31:53 AM by Killersquid »
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Re: Thousand sons next ish
« Reply #34 on: February 5, 2018, 03:05:36 PM »
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