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Author Topic: Shadow Spectres after points increase  (Read 175 times)

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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Shadow Spectres after points increase
« on: December 7, 2017, 12:53:40 PM »
Well, the title is almost self-explanatory: what do you think about the fact that they received a hefty points increase in Chapter Approved?

I've been trying out a unit of 6 Spectres for a few games now (versus marines) and from my own experience I don't understand why they needed such a big increase. My unit of 6 has yet to out-perform other units from the codex. I understand the increase is in part due to the fact that they can become completely invulnerable by stacking up to four -1 To Hit modifiers on a single unit.

What are your thoughts in general about this? Will they still be a solid choice in an army, or have they been doomed to remain on the shelf from now on?
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Offline SeekingOne

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Re: Shadow Spectres after points increase
« Reply #1 on: December 7, 2017, 01:19:57 PM »
In brief - they were bad, and became worse. Nothing in recent FW point cost changes looks like it is actually dictated by performance of each specific unit - FW models simply seem to have been purposefully priced out of Matched play.
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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: Shadow Spectres after points increase
« Reply #2 on: December 7, 2017, 01:38:44 PM »
FW models simply seem to have been purposefully priced out of Matched play.

This appears to be the case as far as I can tell, as well.
However, from what a mate told me, people were upset about the possibility of stacking all those minus to hit modifiers, which I mentioned earlier.
I'm curious if more people know about this, if it's even a thing in tournaments?
That's a lot of resources pooled into making a unit of Spectres so hard to kill.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Shadow Spectres after points increase
« Reply #3 on: December 7, 2017, 02:32:56 PM »
FW models simply seem to have been purposefully priced out of Matched play.

This appears to be the case as far as I can tell, as well.
However, from what a mate told me, people were upset about the possibility of stacking all those minus to hit modifiers, which I mentioned earlier.
I'm curious if more people know about this, if it's even a thing in tournaments?
That's a lot of resources pooled into making a unit of Spectres so hard to kill.

A lot of sources minus to hit mods, like Conceal, Lighting-Fast Reflexes, Hard to Hit, etc, actually get STRONGER if you already have a source of hit malus.

Example: Let's say someone with 3+ to hit decides to shoot at a unit and you activate an ability to make it harder to be hit. This means that this person now hits with a 4+, reducing his damage output by 25%. Nice. Now, let's say that unit was ALREADY at -1 to be hit. That means he goes from 4+ to 5+, which means the ability you activated reduced his damage output by 33% instead. Since he was already having his accuracy reduced, further accuracy reduction hurts him harder.

A better way of putting this might be, -1 to be hit is not that strong against someone who normally hits on a 2+. But it is absolutely devastating against someone who hits on a 6+. This means, the more you can stack -1 to be hit, the more effective each subsequent stacking of it becomes.

Eldar have a lot of strengths, but a lot of super competitive tournaments rely on shooty gunlines that pour out incredible amounts of firepower. On top of that tournaments often have poor terrain coverage, making the gunline even stronger. Against that, something like -2 to be hit is very very good.

Example. Guilliman buffing some razorback spam will have those razorbacks hitting with 88% of their shots. However, against an Alaitoc Hemlock Wraithfighter, they will hit 44% of their shots instead (due to the way re-rolls interact with hit modifiers). This means their damage output is way lower. Normally, they would hit a Wave Serpent with 88% of shots, but a Vectored Engine Advancing Alaitoc Wave Serpent will only get hit with 44% of shots. Normally, they would hit your 10-Elf Dire Avenger squad with 88% of shots, but instead those Dark Reapers have Alaitoc, Conceal, and you burn some CP on Lighting-Fast Reflexes, so Guilliman's Gunline will only hit with 22% of shots!

Now, do I do this in games I play with my friends? Nah. I don't even play Alaitoc. But this stuff is potentially quite strong at tournaments, and when Craftworld Eldar players place at a major tournament, I expect (barring something new and surprising happening), them to use to-hit modifiers to protect themselves.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Shadow Spectres after points increase
« Reply #4 on: December 7, 2017, 03:53:19 PM »
They were previously point costed about right, as they were basically just fast moving heavy flamers. If you were looking at them for normal shooting, then reapers were a better option.

They can fix the to hit stacking without changing points and just straight up rule change, fixing it to a max -1/2 to hit.

It looks like most armies are getting a -1 to hit at more than 12" away option, It would be a good to get that rule change in before the DE/Harlie codexes drop.


Offline The Mattler

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Re: Shadow Spectres after points increase
« Reply #5 on: December 8, 2017, 08:15:09 PM »
In brief - they were bad, and became worse. Nothing in recent FW point cost changes looks like it is actually dictated by performance of each specific unit - FW models simply seem to have been purposefully priced out of Matched play.
Heh, I was starting to think that I was the only person unimpressed by the pre-nerf Shadow Spectres.

Regarding the FW models, Wasp Assault Walkers bucked the trend and are no longer insanely overpriced.  The Corsairs went down a bit too, but they're in an odd place because equipping them with Lasblasters makes them terrible Swooping Hawks, but it would be funny to have "jump Guardians" by giving the Skyreavers some Shuriken Catapults.
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Shadow Spectres after points increase
« Reply #6 on: December 8, 2017, 08:19:13 PM »
In brief - they were bad, and became worse. Nothing in recent FW point cost changes looks like it is actually dictated by performance of each specific unit - FW models simply seem to have been purposefully priced out of Matched play.
Heh, I was starting to think that I was the only person unimpressed by the pre-nerf Shadow Spectres.

Regarding the FW models, Wasp Assault Walkers bucked the trend and are no longer insanely overpriced.  The Corsairs went down a bit too, but they're in an odd place because equipping them with Lasblasters makes them terrible Swooping Hawks, but it would be funny to have "jump Guardians" by giving the Skyreavers some Shuriken Catapults.

Pre-nerf, they were favorably comparable to Warp Spiders in terms of abilities and role, less the deep strike but with better guns. Many people took them in Alaitoc detachments to make them more durable. Post-nerf, I doubt they will be played in competitive lists, but we shall see.

I'm glad that Wasp Assault Walkers got their price reduced. Their previous price was based off the Index price of the War Walker, but was ALSO based on the fact that Wasp Assault's special deployment was MUCH stronger than the War Walker's scout-move. Now, the base War Walker price is cheaper, and also, the base War Walker special deployment is comparable to what Wasp Assault Walkers get. They're better than War Walkers, but not that much better, so a price reduction was in order.

I think Skyreavers are probably best equipped with shardcarbines, especially since they lack Battle Focus. Certainly you should replace the Lasblasters they have though, which are also strictly worse than Codex Lasblasters (unless maybe you can use Codex Lasblaster profile?)
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