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Offline Erik_Bloodfang

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Astartes DNA
« on: November 27, 2017, 07:29:48 PM »
I have a question and I don't know where to post it exactly so if it should be somewhere else I'm sorry.

Basically I am writing fluff for my own space wolf chapter. I have plenty of back story to explain how they are a viable space wolf successor chapter so that whole debate aside.

I want to know if it is possible to use space wolfs to breed humans with the goal of creating a strong gene line for aspirants. Weather it's through artificial insemination, inserting space marine DNA into embryos or something like that is it possible to pass on space marine genetics to human offspring?

The reason I ask is because my wolves are trapped in the warp for nearly 200 years and early on realize they could be stuck there for a long time so begin planning for reinforcing themselves with fallen warriors gene seed and crew members children as aspirants. Being that only Fenrisians live and work on space wolf ships I'm not worried about the gene seed not working I'm just curious about ensuring strong genetic lines.

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2017, 07:53:39 PM »
Space Marines are entirely artificial, so nothing that makes them 'space marine', would come out of their DNA, which is basically just human. Tons more hormones, but that's about it.

Insertion of the space marine organs though does have an effect on applicants, as the geneseed of the organs will change them, but it's something which only comes from the applicant going through the transformation progress.

For your case, the Space Wolves could turn their crew into space marines. Doesn't really matter where the crew came from, as once they are space marines, the space wolf geneseed will effect them, it's not that they are from Fenris that this is the case.

Keep in mind, that the application progress is extreamly difficult, and only applications of extreame physical and mental strength will have a chance to survive.

Basically, as long as they are using Space Wolf geneseed to make their space marine organs and such, they are a space wolf successor, so you're good to go.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2017, 10:13:47 PM »
You're going to run into a matter of logistics. There's only so much gene seed to go around and only so many adequate warm bodies to put the material into. 200 years really isn't a long time to investigate blood lines, especially if all those years are bottled in a ship. Aspirants being trained solely on a vessel wouldn't have any where near the exposure to proper battlefield conditions to adequately qualify as Marines.
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Offline Erik_Bloodfang

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2017, 12:57:52 AM »
Space Marines are entirely artificial, so nothing that makes them 'space marine', would come out of their DNA, which is basically just human. Tons more hormones, but that's about it.

Insertion of the space marine organs though does have an effect on applicants, as the geneseed of the organs will change them, but it's something which only comes from the applicant going through the transformation progress.

For your case, the Space Wolves could turn their crew into space marines. Doesn't really matter where the crew came from, as once they are space marines, the space wolf geneseed will effect them, it's not that they are from Fenris that this is the case.

Keep in mind, that the application progress is extreamly difficult, and only applications of extreame physical and mental strength will have a chance to survive.

Basically, as long as they are using Space Wolf geneseed to make their space marine organs and such, they are a space wolf successor, so you're good to go.


I know how the process works and I know that gene seeds make space marines. I also know that genetically speaking someone with strong genes makes for a more naturally strong person. I'm not trying to breed space marines I'm just trying to make the best stock given the circumstances to produce viable aspirants. so the question still remains. Is there a way to pass on the genes (not gene seed) of a human that became a space marine?  Also for space wolves it's believed that only fenrisians can handle the canis helix which is why the "wolf brothers" failed. Your not wrong in that the gene seed would effect any one you put it in but I'm not trying to make slavering beasts of degraded mutants like what happened to the wolf brothers.

Post Merge: November 28, 2017, 01:02:02 AM
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You're going to run into a matter of logistics. There's only so much gene seed to go around and only so many adequate warm bodies to put the material into. 200 years really isn't a long time to investigate blood lines, especially if all those years are bottled in a ship. Aspirants being trained solely on a vessel wouldn't have any where near the exposure to proper battlefield conditions to adequately qualify as Marines.

200 years of near constant battle in the warp would make for very battle hardened aspirants I would think. It would also make for short life span for human crew thus 200 years could easily be 4 or generations so it would make sense to invest in the recruitment stock if the space marines want to keep strong warriors.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 09:29:26 AM by Erik_Bloodfang »

Offline Alienscar

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2017, 12:59:21 PM »
I'm not trying to breed space marines I'm just trying to make the best stock given the circumstances to produce viable aspirants. so the question still remains. Is there a way to pass on the genes (not gene seed) of a human that became a space marine?

What makes for a good Space Marine aspirant? Intelligence, willpower, mental fortitude, physical strength? None of these are hereditary traits.

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2017, 01:25:34 PM »
200 years of near constant battle in the warp would make for very battle hardened aspirants I would think. It would also make for short life span for human crew thus 200 years could easily be 4 or generations so it would make sense to invest in the recruitment stock if the space marines want to keep strong warriors.

Ship combat is only one facet. They're Space Wolves, they should encounter arctic, jungle, plains, underwater even. They'll be very good at one thing and completely inexperienced at everything else. They could do it but these warriors would be looked upon with suspicion by other tribes.

Say you have X number of new crew each generation. Females can't become Marines for argle bargle reasons so your potential crew size is now X/2. Not all of those have the potential to become Marines and of those that do not all are going to survive the process. If you're only focuses on a smaller subset of the crew, through forced partner selection the pool drastically decreases. This is before battle losses. Each gene seed lost during the process or unrecoverable in battle further complicates the matter.
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Offline Erik_Bloodfang

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2017, 07:34:12 PM »

What makes for a good Space Marine aspirant? Intelligence, willpower, mental fortitude, physical strength? None of these are hereditary traits.

Welcome to the site Erik_Bloodfang. I like  your user name, Wolf to the core.
[/quote]

Firstly thanks for the welcome and yeah I'm wolf through and through lol

I know intelligence and willpower and all that is not genetic but size general build and ability to put on muscle to a point are in part to genetics. Like look at different races and even people within a race if your a small scrawny guy and you have a kid chances are they wouldn't be built like a brick house. Now obviously you gotta take into account  the females genetics and life style yeah but I'm just saying good genes give a guy a head start right?

The GrimSqueaker I know back on fenris under normal conditions they would train in all aspects of war but given the situation they don't have much choice. They do end up on a demon planet or two which gives them some other experience but yeah for the most part ship combat is all recruits would get till they escape the warp. Not ideal but you work with what ya got. I also agree with your statement on number of viable recruits and limited usable gene seed. But honestly all the more reason to try and ensure the best possible options for new recruits right? I mean there is only half a company worth of wolves to start with so ever gene seed is extremely precious. Can't be wasting it on someone your not sure will survive.

Offline magenb

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2017, 09:43:19 PM »
Time passes differently in the warp, so 200 actual years in the warp or has 200 years passed in real space since it was last seen. The later would suffer from less problems. You could build up a story line like they entered the warp, had a few massive battles in x month within the warp eventually being spat out and crashing on some uncharted/forgotten planet. They can then spend the next 500 years rebuilding with a world full of resources. You just need to make sure some key personnel survive, like a bunch of navigators and builders.




Offline Erik_Bloodfang

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2017, 11:35:15 PM »
Time passes differently in the warp, so 200 actual years in the warp or has 200 years passed in real space since it was last seen. The later would suffer from less problems. You could build up a story line like they entered the warp, had a few massive battles in x month within the warp eventually being spat out and crashing on some uncharted/forgotten planet. They can then spend the next 500 years rebuilding with a world full of resources. You just need to make sure some key personnel survive, like a bunch of navigators and builders.


200 real space years so yeah depending on the currents time would be different for the ones in the warp but not always slower. Regardless I have story line already worked out for after they escape so building the chapter up isn't the goal here. Just simply survive long enough to get out and with less then 50 astartes to begin will and many mishaps and battles reinforcing themselves is needed to ensure survival.

We're off topic again. How are some ways to pass on genes of a father if he's already a space marine? Anyone know?

Offline Alienscar

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2017, 04:22:55 AM »
I know intelligence and willpower and all that is not genetic but size general build and ability to put on muscle to a point are in part to genetics.

It is not that simple I am afraid to say. The ability to put on muscle is only partially hereditary. The number of fast twitch muscle, which is an important factor in muscle gain, is not a hundred percent hereditary. It is the old nature versus nurture argument. It is the same with height. Height is only eighty percent hereditary and again a persons environment and/or nutrient intake can have an influence on the final result.

We're off topic again. How are some ways to pass on genes of a father if he's already a space marine? Anyone know?

Artificial insemination, cloning, sexual intercourse are all ways of passing on genetic material. None of these methods, even cloning, will guarantee that a father who is a Space Marine will produce an offspring that will become a Space Marine.

Here's a thought, I seem to remember that Space Marine aspirants can only undergo the gene-seed organ transplant process when they are young. With this in mind maybe you should be trying to find a way of increasing the amount of crew member children available rather than concentrating on genetics.
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Offline Erik_Bloodfang

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2017, 09:50:08 AM »
I know intelligence and willpower and all that is not genetic but size general build and ability to put on muscle to a point are in part to genetics.

It is not that simple I am afraid to say. The ability to put on muscle is only partially hereditary. The number of fast twitch muscle, which is an important factor in muscle gain, is not a hundred percent hereditary. It is the old nature versus nurture argument. It is the same with height. Height is only eighty percent hereditary and again a persons environment and/or nutrient intake can have an influence on the final result.

We're off topic again. How are some ways to pass on genes of a father if he's already a space marine? Anyone know?

Artificial insemination, cloning, sexual intercourse are all ways of passing on genetic material. None of these methods, even cloning, will guarantee that a father who is a Space Marine will produce an offspring that will become a Space Marine.

Here's a thought, I seem to remember that Space Marine aspirants can only undergo the gene-seed organ transplant process when they are young. With this in mind maybe you should be trying to find a way of increasing the amount of crew member children available rather than concentrating on genetics.

But you do agree those traits are in some part hereditary. So adding DNA from someone who was the ideal candidate when they were chosen should in theory help on a purely physical level. Then you make them work out train and study constantly from the time they can sit up till they are early teens. I agree it's nature and nurture im not forgetting about that.

Yeah it won't guarantee they will become space marines and I'm not saying just use space marines to site children they would order all crew to reproduce to give them more options. I just think given the law of percentages and what we know about genetics kids derived from proven stock would do better most of the time. Plus given how mortals from Fenris view
Their space marine masters (something akin to a god) personally if I knew my father was one of the "sky warriors" I would bust my ass even harder to not only disappoint him but to eventually join him.

Offline kim

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2017, 10:55:56 AM »
I see no issues here. The Wolves got no SM as crew members, so a ship would be filled with chapter serfs and servitors. You could even add cloning equipment to make servitors (who could serve as hosts for growing marine implants, same way they all was, originally), and since common humans quickly could outnumber the new Wolves chapter's need for recruits, no issues.
The only issue is the Space Wolves got a tradition of choosing only the worthy from combat; but you make a new chapter, right? So you would need a new tradition, and either make a spaceship based Astartes (lost in space, on a slowly growing fleet?), or have them decide to found a chapter on a planet.

Offline Erik_Bloodfang

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Re: Astartes DNA
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2017, 02:45:37 PM »
I see no issues here. The Wolves got no SM as crew members, so a ship would be filled with chapter serfs and servitors. You could even add cloning equipment to make servitors (who could serve as hosts for growing marine implants, same way they all was, originally), and since common humans quickly could outnumber the new Wolves chapter's need for recruits, no issues.
The only issue is the Space Wolves got a tradition of choosing only the worthy from combat; but you make a new chapter, right? So you would need a new tradition, and either make a spaceship based Astartes (lost in space, on a slowly growing fleet?), or have them decide to found a chapter on a planet.

My chapter is going to try to stay as close to tradition as possible since they still are wolves and tradition in ingrained. In this particular instance they would just have to choose from those who excel at combat during the many ingagements with whatever decides to attack them. Instead of fighting rival tribes on fenris. Though I suppose they could be put into tribes and fight it out but that would be more detrimental then beneficial i think.

See the basic story is "Erik Bloodfang" my wolf lord was sent with half of Sven ironhands company  as well as a small naval fleet and a regiment of guard to answer a distress call. when he got there they came under attack by thousand sons who were laying a trap for wolves. They traitors launched a massive assault of all the ships at once targeting the warp drives. Once all the drives were destroyed The sorcerers opened a rip in space to the warp and sucked the imperial fleet through essentially trapping them. They spend the next 170 something years traveling the warp trying to find a way out and survive all the dangers within the warp. They finally escape and after lots of interrogation return to Fenris. He finds out his lord Sven ironhand renounced his oaths and went into exile. A new company had been formed. There was no place for him and his men anymore as he would not serve under another wolf lord as he had been leading his men for so long. And his men would not follow anyone else. So Erik and Logan traveled to terra to petition the high lords to create a new chapter of wolves. Eventually a deal is struck and the new chapter is formed "The wolves of vengeance". They are fleet based using a customized star fort as a home base. Erik made a deal with logan to be able to still recruit from fenris to keep the proud lineage of the wolves alive and to better ensure the chapter would not fail like the wolf brothers.

I have lots of back story for this lol

 


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