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Author Topic: Help vs Eldar!  (Read 986 times)

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Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Help vs Eldar!
« on: November 12, 2017, 04:52:59 AM »
Hello!

I'm here to ask for help on behalf of my SMurf playing buddy. Lately he's been having real trouble beating my Eldar, and I was hoping you could give a few pointers that I could relay to the poor guy.

We play with Tactical Objectives, and in our most recent game I tabled him in my fifth turn (I got the first turn). Would have won through victory points anyway, but it was actually fairly even in that department until I got a couple of really juicy ones that allowed me to score like 4 and 6 victory points per objective (the RNG is real).

My question is simple: how would you beat the following 2000p list as a Space Marine player?

Battalion detachment:
HQ:

Autarch Skyrunner (means he's on a jetbike) with a Laser lance. Warlord.
Farseer with Guide and Doom

Troops:
2x5 Dire Avengers
6 Rangers

Vanguard detachment:
HQ:
Warlock with Enhance

Elites:
10 Howling Banshees in a Wave Serpent transport
5 Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent transport
6 Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent transport
6 Shadow Spectres (Forgeworld unit - their impact in this game was minimal)

Spearhead Detachment:
HQ:

Warlock with Quicken

Heavy Support:
2x5 Dark Reapers
2 Fire Prisms
1 War Walker with Starcannons


I suppose my friend's biggest problem with my army is that I just destroy him with shooting every game. The last two games he's brought in 2 of the Stormraven flyers and each one has fire power to rival a 1000p army and they transport valuable troops to boot. He still gets destroyed.
Is there some trick to beating shooty Eldar that we just don't know about? Because I prefer shooty Eldar lists. I usually only bring one CC unit to a fight (in this case Banshees, and their impact was minimal).

I realize the Eldar codex is really strong, but I beat him soundly 4/5 times back when I had to use the Index and he had his codex. This most recent game was the first time I played against him with the new Eldar codex.

There must be something you can do to stomp me?

Appreciate it!
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Help vs Eldar!
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2017, 06:39:36 AM »
I'd probably have to see his list to have a good idea of what he could do to improve. It also matters what Craftworld you are. It's possible your friend has a fine list and is mismanaging it. It's possible his list needs tweaks, or is utterly unsuited to dealing with yours.

How exactly he fails also matters here. Is his difficulty in destroying your Wave Serpents? Dealing with your Dark Reapers and Fire Prisms? Taking objectives? Reaching your fast units with his assaulters? Keeping away from your assaulters with his fast units?

If his issue is dealing with Wave Serpents, I'd recommend he look into weapons like Lascannons that deal 1d6 damage, rather than weapons that deal a flat 2 or 3 damage. "1d6 minus 1, minimum 1" averages to 2.5 damage. An Autocannon will only typically deal 1 damage per hit against a Serpent, and a Stormstrike missile deals 2. If his issue is dealing with your infantry, I'd recommend he look into weapons like Heavy Bolter and Assault Cannon, which specialize in dealing with light infantry, or Plasma guns which are strong against infantry with better saves like Dark Reapers or Fire Dragons.If his issue is dealing with your tanks in the back, Lascannons are a classic choice. Militarum Tempestus allies would also help. For example, he could take a Battalion of Astra Militarum with stormtroopers toting all kinds of specialized guns to crack open tanks and transports.

All of this depends on how the game actually goes. The new Craftworld Eldar are strong, but just posting a list and being like "how does my friend, whose list and difficulties I have not described, adjust his list to do better" doesn't actually paint enough of picture to allow me to give useful advice. I'd recommend your friend post here himself with his list and his own ideas of how his games went to get advice.

EDIT: Some other things to consider. If he has a buffing unit like Captain or Lieutenant, is he making sure it's in range to give rerolls to his units? If he has screening units, are they in the right spot to physically prevent the Fire Dragons from getting into range of the tanks? If he has vehicles or infantry with heavy weapons, are they deployed in a spot where they can shoot all game without moving? If he has vehicles like Rhinos, is he using them appropriately to block line of sight? Is he making use of the right stratagems and powers? Is he deploying with decent range and LoS to things he needs to get at or shoot? Does he move his units in a way that accomplishes a goal every turn? Do his units that spend points to be very good at a particular task (say, a Dreadnought with a DCCW) get a chance to perform that task, or are those points wasted? Does he check ranges and LoS during deployment? Does he analyze which of your units represent threats and focus fire on them first? Does he understand what his list does and can do, and what your list can do? Does he have a plan to win, and does he update that plan as things change? Does he make good use of cover and unit positioning? Does he make sure he charges his units in the right order, so that his tough Rhino soaks up overwatch before his less-tough close combat unit charges? Does he shoot in the right order, starting with units that have few or no choices of what to shoot at, then making his decisions with his long range units when he has more information?

Almost all of these are things that factor a lot into your success as a player without a change in list. The Space Marines codex is weaker than the CWE Codex, but it's not THAT much weaker. It's possible your friend has a bad list, but it's also possible that he's mismanaging it or you're just much better at using your stuff than he is. These are things to take into account. I run pretty competent lists of Craftworld Eldar that look a lot like yours (Dark Reapers, tanks, Fire Dragons in Wave Serpents) against a Space Marines playing friend of mine and I have lost probably more than 2/3rds of my games against him. It's not because of the list, it's because he's a very tenacious and capable player.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 07:16:32 AM by Blazinghand »
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Offline faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)

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Re: Help vs Eldar!
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 08:50:44 AM »
My main opponent is Salamanders, and he tends to do fairly well against me. Two under-rated units that are particularly good for Space marines to use against Eldar - Thunderfire Cannon and Interceptor.

Thunderfire Cannon can wreck any exposed infantry untis (looking at you reapers), does not need line of sight, and with Tremor shells can really impact the movement game. Several times I have lost the game to Tremor shells... Plus there is a cheap techmarine you get with it... more on that in a moment.

The Interceptor gets nice bonus for shooting things that can fly, which is all your vehicles sans war walker, and your Auturarch. Hitting all those on 2+ with some pretty heft weapons, its a decent threat for punching open units.

Finally, he takes a Ven dread with Twin Las. This guy hang out near the aforementioned tech marine. While not amazing, it still packs a decent punch in CC so it's a nice determent there, and the tech marine can heal damage that gets to him while still shooting the thunderfire. The Ven dread is one of his most consistently performing units, especially with Salamanders.

What Chapter does he play, and what is the core of his list?
So, what your saying is it's not your fault you look stupid by using words you don't get?
Flawless logic.

Offline Iluvhir Strafermeyer

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Re: Help vs Eldar!
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2017, 10:10:26 AM »
I'd probably have to see his list to have a good idea of what he could do to improve.

posting a list and being like "how does my friend, whose list and difficulties I have not described, adjust his list to do better"

I asked how YOU would beat my list, not how my opponent should do it. :)
So for the sake of this argument, assume that my opponent doesn't factor into the discussion at all.
I just want to know how YOU would beat it, theoretically.
I mentioned I like to be shooty, so my lists tend to be heavy with firepower tailored to killing MEQ infantry and vehicles. I believe CC is in a weak spot right now, so I only bring one CC unit along for the ride, strictly for the fun of it. It's purely for fun - I've literally NO NEED for it, since my opponent doesn't like CC either (though again, I ask that you assume it's you and not him fighting against my Eldar list).

The reason I only provided details on the Eldar army is because you don't need to know how my opponent plays in order to describe how YOU would beat my list. :)

Quote from: faitherun
My main opponent is Salamanders, and he tends to do fairly well against me. Two under-rated units that are particularly good for Space marines to use against Eldar - Thunderfire Cannon and Interceptor.

Thanks for your input. My opponent (who also prefers Salamanders btw) has beaten me with Thunderfire cannons in past editions. I'll ask him to try them again. I've never played against Interceptors, though. They could be worth looking into as well.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 10:27:24 AM by Iluvhir Strafermeyer »
"Consider the battlefield: it is essentially a dawn in grim guise. It is a scenario in which darkness meets light and is annihilated by it.
Imagine that the enemy are the shadows lurking in the night - The arrival of our warhost is like the sun's light breaking the horizon. Let the Bladestorm expel the darkness."

Beaujl'blef Philosophy

Offline magenb

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Re: Help vs Eldar!
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2017, 04:27:31 PM »
Depends on terrain and deployment, but Raven guard patrol with, fliers with long range weapons focusing on the fireprisms or reapers, snipers to pick on your characters.

Then black Templars DS assault force focusing on your reapers to stop them shooting the fliers, even if I can't kill them out right. Then most likely drop pods with some Intercessors to go after your shadow spectres. Could do it with a Tac squad but, you might deploy in a way to negate rapid fire. Basically just get right up in your face asap.

 


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