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Author Topic: What makes Conscripts so good?  (Read 723 times)

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Offline Battle Master Lomandalis

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What makes Conscripts so good?
« on: September 24, 2017, 03:44:49 PM »
With the news that the Guard is the next codex being released, the guys at my LGW have gotten into a debate about what makes Conscripts so good in their current state, and what the best way to go about changing them is.

What we've come up with is that there are two potential reasons why Conscripts are the hot amphetamine parrot right now.

1)  Orders:  Their argument is that it is orders like Fix Bayonets and First Rank / Second Rank that makes the Conscripts so hot.  For some reason they have it in their heads that 50 Conscripts pumping out that many dice can be game changers.  But I ran the numbers.  50 Conscripts will, on average, cause 3.5 failed MEQ saves with FRFSRF at 13"+, with the numbers effectively doubling in Rapid Fire range of the entire unit.  Against a TEQ unit, they are causing 3.7 failed saves.  To me, that isn't very impressive.

2)  Bubblewrap:  My view is that Conscripts are currently so popular because of how well they are able to insulate key units and prevent deep striking reserve units from getting close when used in combination with Commissar.  A 50 man unit of Conscripts can provide a large buffer to push alpha strike units arriving from deep strike back to a point of ineffectiveness.

So where do you guys stand on this matter?  What is it that makes Conscripts so good when you use them / face them across the table?
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: What makes Conscripts so good?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2017, 03:49:47 PM »
Their offensive potential is mediocre--no more dangerous than a comparable points value of Ork Shoota Boyz, honestly. I mean, it's nothing to sneeze at, but low BS lasguns just aren't the end of the world.

Their primary problem is the fact that one Commissar negates their huge morale problem and they become this super-cheap immovable block. Now, they still die like Eldar Guardians, but when we combine their iron morale with the fact that there are very, very few effective horde-killing weapons anymore, and we've got trouble.

The reason units like this are in is simply because Blast and Template weapons--the age-old horde equalizers--are now pretty damned terrible at their job. Time was a couple pie plates would put such a hole in a unit of conscripts that you basically broke its back. A big unit like that couldn't effectively space out and still be a viable unit, so they always were a bit tightly packed, and the old scatter mechanics made it almost impossible to miss (which makes sense).

Now we've got stupid Basilisks or Demolishers killing, what, 3 guys? No wonder people love hordes. They have no paper to their rock anymore.

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Re: What makes Conscripts so good?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2017, 04:23:06 PM »
The issue isn't playing against just 50 Conscripts. Its about playing against upwards of 200 of them. In my 8+ games against Guard almost every list has been against upwards of 200 Conscripts. With overlapping auras they are almost always immune to morale, or hitting + running and then firing at full BS, or battle-focusing, or rapid firing hundreds of shots etc. etc. etc.

Stack Guilliman and Celestine on top of them and its just a tidal wave of dice with all manner of re-rolls that is just miserable to play against. Its the one thing in 8th edition I've hated. Looking forward to seeing what adjustments GW has made

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Offline Aurics Pride

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Re: What makes Conscripts so good?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2017, 05:55:39 PM »
Their offensive potential is mediocre--no more dangerous than a comparable points value of Ork Shoota Boyz, honestly. I mean, it's nothing to sneeze at, but low BS lasguns just aren't the end of the world.

Their primary problem is the fact that one Commissar negates their huge morale problem and they become this super-cheap immovable block. Now, they still die like Eldar Guardians, but when we combine their iron morale with the fact that there are very, very few effective horde-killing weapons anymore, and we've got trouble.

The reason units like this are in is simply because Blast and Template weapons--the age-old horde equalizers--are now pretty damned terrible at their job. Time was a couple pie plates would put such a hole in a unit of conscripts that you basically broke its back. A big unit like that couldn't effectively space out and still be a viable unit, so they always were a bit tightly packed, and the old scatter mechanics made it almost impossible to miss (which makes sense).

Now we've got stupid Basilisks or Demolishers killing, what, 3 guys? No wonder people love hordes. They have no paper to their rock anymore.

This is my big issue at the moment, even small blasts with enough of them were good at getting rid of horde units. In 8th you are lucky to do 3 or 4 hits with a large blast let alone a small one. I used to get a lot of mileage out of flamers with my Raven Guard for thinning down Guardsmen/Guardian/Gaunt blobs, now they are so unreliable that you just can't rely on them to do this at all.
Add this to the fact that the imperial guard can make them so resilient to morale casualties which were what GW brought in to balance the fact that the anti-horde weapons now suck.
I'm not worried of the damage output of Conscript blobs (Ork ones are a different kettle of fish) but you get two or three blobs and it's so hard to move them, just makes for a very unenjoyable game.
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Offline Killersquid

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Re: What makes Conscripts so good?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2017, 06:43:42 PM »
It's really the bubble wrap. Conscripts don't do anything, but they clog the table and prevent folks from getting to the weapons which 'actually' do damage. Doesn't help that guard artillery is undercosted for what it does.
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Offline Calamity

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Re: What makes Conscripts so good?
« Reply #5 on: October 9, 2017, 08:23:52 AM »
The nerfs GW put on them don't really seem to address their main issue, which is them being a big cheap unbreakable camper unit that guard the artillery and hold objectives so well.

Now me, I would have gotten rid of them.  For fluff reasons as well as game mechanics.  But that's probably an unpopular move.

You know what might have worked?  Their raw recruits rule meaning that they always have to take a battleshock test even if they suffered no casualties in addition to the order nerf. 

But it's probably commissars who are the real problem.  You know what I would have done?  Turned summary execution into a stratagem.  Because it's such a powerful ability you should probably pay for it.

Offline Killersquid

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Re: What makes Conscripts so good?
« Reply #6 on: October 9, 2017, 10:01:54 AM »
They should have increased their cost to 4pts, or restrict them to be 0-1 for each infantry squad you take. As it is, Conscripts have not been nerfed at all, only made better. Still going to see multiple 20 man squads in most imperial lists.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: What makes Conscripts so good?
« Reply #7 on: October 9, 2017, 10:37:02 AM »
Yeah, this is a drag. GW still doesn't seem to understand how it's own game works.  :-\

I'm still not taking them, though. Not unless I'm going to a tourney or something, and probably not even then.

 


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