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Author Topic: 75 PL Ynnari Harlequin Mechdar for List-Building Competition  (Read 1783 times)

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Offline Blazinghand

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Okay everyone, this is pretty straightforward:

1x Battalion Detachment of Ynnari Aeldari
PL Total: 75
Points Total: ~1600

++HQ++ 18 PL
Yvraine
Shadowseer with Neuro Disrupter
Troupe Master with Fusion Pistol, Harlequin’s Caress
++TROOPS++ 28 PL
Troupe: 5 Players: 5x Fusion Pistol, 3x Harlequin's Caress, 2x Harlequin's Embrace
Troupe: 5 Players: 5x Fusion Pistol, 3x Harlequin's Caress, 2x Harlequin's Embrace
Troupe: 5 Players: 5x Fusion Pistol, 3x Harlequin's Caress, 2x Harlequin's Embrace
Troupe: 5 Players: 5x Fusion Pistol, 3x Harlequin's Caress, 2x Harlequin's Embrace
++FLYERS++ 9 PL
Crimson Hunter
++DEDICATED TRANSPORTS++ 20 PL
Starweaver
Starweaver
Starweaver
Starweaver

--

Basics: So, this is very standard mounted Harlequins, except now we can bring along a flyer and Yvraine to spice things up. Also, everyone is Ynnari. Yvraine, the Shadowseer, and the Troupe Master each start in a Starweaver with a 5-Player Troupe (and the last Troupe is also in a Starweaver). Deploys in 5 drops, few enough to have a very solid chance of going first.

Wargear choices: It's typical to give Players Harlequin's Embrace instead of Harlequin's Caress since the Caress is much more expensive and only slightly better in some circumstances. However, since this is PL, we give them mostly Caress and some Embrace. Same with Fusion Pistols: typically one only puts 2 or maybe 3 in each Troupe. Since this is PL, everyone has a Fusion Pistol.  The Troupe Master and Shadowseer similarly get good equipment. As a result of these various upgrades, this 75 PL list has just about 1600 points in it.

On the board: The Starweavers will race across the map, and even (limited) turn 1 assaults are perfectly possible thanks to the powers of Shadowseer and Yvraine making Players. Players are absolutely devestating in assault, and can take down just about anything with their weapons, including vehicles. They will be operating at close distances to the enemy and near to each other, making Soulburst very strong. Expect everything to be in assault by Turn 2 at the latest, and for Fusion Pistols to be firing every turn starting Turn 2 as well. It might be spammy and tournament-ey, but it is nonetheless effective, and with a 10% points value advantage I expect it would be very good.

The Crimson Hunter helps add on some anti-flyer antitank, but overall the ability to win assaults and close shooting with soulburst spam and powers should help this list table the enemy even if their fliers aren't all dead.
« Last Edit: August 5, 2017, 04:58:49 AM by Blazinghand »
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Offline Tweedz

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Re: 75 PL Ynnari Harlequin Mechdar for List-Building Competition
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2017, 06:13:02 PM »
That is a scary looking list (love all that fusion).

About your wargear notes:

Embrace is actually better in most situations compared to Caress. The way the damage chart works these days, the extra strength is not as good as the loss in AP. In fact, all things being equal, Caress only preforms better against very specific toughness (t5, t8, and t9) and embrace is better everywhere else. When saves are so low that the extra AP does not matter, there are still only a few situations when a caress does more than an embrace and all other times they are equal. All this to say that embrace is a better weapon overall unless you know what your opponent will be bringing and that it hits one of the places where a caress is consistently better.

Given how many players you have, you could do a mix of both if you wanted to cover all your bases.


Lastly, if you are worried about fliers, you could drop one player from the 6-man group and replace the ravager with a crimson hunter. CHs are exceptional flyer-killers and have good AV output for ground targets as well.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 06:18:16 PM by Tweedz »

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: 75 PL Ynnari Harlequin Mechdar for List-Building Competition
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2017, 06:47:05 PM »
Against a MEQ, for each weapon hit:

Embrace: 1/2 * 5/6 = 5/12 -> .42
Caress: 2/3 * 2/3 = 4/9 -> .44

Against GEQ:

Embrace: 2/3 * 1 = 2/3 -> .67
Caress: 2/3 * 1 = 2/3 -> .67

Against TEQ:
Embrace: 1/2 * 2/3 = 1/3 -> .33
Caress: 2/3 * 1/2 = 1/2 -> .33

Against OBEQ:
Embrace: 1/2 * 1 = 1/2 -> .5
Caress: 2/3 * 1 = 2/3 -> .67

So we have Caress slightly slightly better against MEQs., the same against GEQs and TEQs and better against OBEQs.

Why is this? Well, let's imagine a weapon (which doesn't exist), called the Harliequin's Weak Weapon. This Weapon is S4 AP -2. If you could choose to either boost the S to 5 or the AP to -3, which would you pick? The answer, is of course, to boost the S. Boosting the AP is rarely a better choice. The reason for this is, the extra AP from the Embrace is not actually that great. Consisder an enemy with a 3+ save. An enemy going from saving on 5+ (you get through 4 out of 6 times) to saving on a 6+ (you get through 5 out of 6 times) is only a 20% boost in damage! On the other hand, compare to wounding 33% more often, it seems like it's better to take that boost to damage instead.

So, the Caress is actually better or as good against all the common statlines. The only one left out is the "Aspect Warrior" statline:

Against DAEQ:
Embrace: 2/3 * 1 = 2/3 -> .67
Caress: 2/3 * 5/6 = 5/9 -> .55

As we can see, the Embrace actually is better specifically against Dire Avenger like statlines, where its AP value has a chance to shine over the Caress, and where the extra S from the Caress is meaningless. Against all other statlines, Caress is as good or better (by small amounts).

Given that most enemies are marines, orkz, or guardsmen, and very few are like Sisters of Battle, Guard Veterans, or Eldar Aspect Warriors with good armor AND bad toughness, we prefer the Embrace.

And of course the Embrace outperforms against bikers and tough tanks, though in the latter scenario we're mostly leaning on fusion pistols.

The reason the Embrace isn't used more often is that it is waayyyyyy too expensive for a marginal boost. Of course, with PLs, this doesn't matter. It could be worth having a Caress or two in each group anyway of course, specifically to deal with high armor low toughness units.

--

I'll consider the CH. It might be the answer I'm looking for.
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Offline Tweedz

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Re: 75 PL Ynnari Harlequin Mechdar for List-Building Competition
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 07:47:48 PM »
Ah yes, I messed up my calculation on T4 and had it as slightly in favor embrace but your calculations are accurate!

Given the prevalence of MEQ you are likely right on the caress. While I will concede the point to you and say that yes, caresses are the better generalist weapon for PL, I would point out that there are an increasing number of armies that don't run masses of MEQ or TEQ. Things like scions and demon princes are very common (at least where I am) and both are things where the embrace preforms better (though, like tanks, you may lean on the fusion pistols to vaporize the princes). Given, especially on the tournament circuit, you also have a lot of Tau commanders and conscript spam where caresses again do better.

My point in the rambling is to say; you have the option why not have some embraces and cover all the bases? (ha, unintentional rhyme!). Given that caresses are going to be better over all, you could just do one unit with embraces and not lose much. That being said, you know your local meta and there may not be enough opponents with the required units to justify embraces at all so it is up to you.


Whatever you decide about the weapon load out on your troupes I really like this list (and have already copy/pasted it for my own possible use when i get some harlequins  ;) ).

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: 75 PL Ynnari Harlequin Mechdar for List-Building Competition
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2017, 08:03:10 PM »
Hmm, maybe 3 Caress, 2 Embrace is the way to go if there will be many T6 and T7 Tau suits to deal with (against which an Embrace is better).


OK: modified them to have 3 Caress, 2 Embrace, and swapped out the Ravager for a Crimson Hunter. How's it look now?
« Last Edit: August 1, 2017, 03:56:29 PM by Blazinghand »
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Offline Tweedz

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Re: 75 PL Ynnari Harlequin Mechdar for List-Building Competition
« Reply #5 on: August 1, 2017, 05:19:46 PM »
I like it! It is a scary setup, especially since you have a decent shot of going first.

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: 75 PL Ynnari Harlequin Mechdar for List-Building Competition
« Reply #6 on: August 1, 2017, 05:23:58 PM »
If there was a way to squeeze in another PL for a Hemlock, I probably would. I don't think it's possible though without dropping something valuable, since all Troupes are now at minimum strength.
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Offline Tweedz

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Re: 75 PL Ynnari Harlequin Mechdar for List-Building Competition
« Reply #7 on: August 1, 2017, 05:42:02 PM »
If there was a way to squeeze in another PL for a Hemlock, I probably would. I don't think it's possible though without dropping something valuable, since all Troupes are now at minimum strength.

The only thing I can see to do would be to drop the shadowseer, replace it with another troupe master, add one player back to one squad, and then put in the hemlock. This would leave you at 74 PL, but I am just not sure if it is really worth losing the abilities of the shadowseer.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2017, 05:56:30 PM by Tweedz »

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: 75 PL Ynnari Harlequin Mechdar for List-Building Competition
« Reply #8 on: August 1, 2017, 05:54:16 PM »
If there was a way to squeeze in another PL for a Hemlock, I probably would. I don't think it's possible though without dropping something valuable, since all Troupes are now at minimum strength.

The only thing I can see to do would be to drop the shadowseer, replace it with another troupe master, add one player back to one squad, and then put in the hemlock. This would leave you at 74 PL, but I am just sure if it is really worth losing the abilities of the shadowseer.

Hmm, yeah, I think I want to keep the Shadowseer. A second Troupe Master isn't as valuable as the first one, and the Shadowseer adds a lot of value. I guess Hemlock just won't fit in. :(
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Offline Tweedz

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Re: 75 PL Ynnari Harlequin Mechdar for List-Building Competition
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2017, 04:03:33 PM »
I was playing around with Harlequins for my new lists (finally got my hands on a few). And I just realized why I initially thought that the Embrace was better than the Caress at killing MEQ: Choreographer of War.

The effect of rerolling wounds smooths the chance of wounding, makes the extra AP more valuable, and put the embrace ahead of the caress against more things. Given you only have one Troupe Master, but anything within his range is going to be better served with an embrace should you face MEQ, TEQ, DAEQ, or GEQ (caress still wins OBEQ).

Numbers (based on 10 attacks from a troupe):

MEQ:
Caress: 3.95 damage
Embrace: 4.17 damage

TEQ:
Caress: 2.96 damage
Embrace: 3.33 damage

GEQ:
Caress: 5.93 damage
Embrace: 6.67 damage

DAEQ:
Caress: 4.94 damage
Embrace: 6.67 damage

OBEQ:
Caress: 5.93 damage
Embrace: 5.00 damage

 


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