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Author Topic: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000  (Read 1751 times)

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Offline Akaitsuki

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Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« on: July 3, 2017, 12:42:38 PM »
Battalion Detachment - 3cp
HQ 2-3

1 Company Commander - 40/3
Laspistol
Power Fist

1 Company Commander - 40/3
Laspistol
Power Fist

Troops 3-6
10 Guardsman - 60/3
Lasgun x9
Lascannon x1

10 Guardsman - 60/3
Lasgun x9
Lascannon x1

10 Guardsman - 60/3
Lasgun x9
Lascannon x1

10 Guardsman - 60/3
Lasgun x9
Lascannon x1

10 Guardsman - 60/3
Lasgun x9
Lascannon x1

10 Guardsman - 60/3
Lasgun x9
Lascannon x1

Fast Attack 0-3
1 Hellhound - 101/5
Inferno Cannon
Heavy Bolter

1 Hellhound - 101/5
Inferno Cannon
Heavy Bolter

Spearhead Detachment - 1cp
HQ 1-2

1 Knight Commander Pask - 225
Demolisher Command Tank
Heavy Bolter

Heavy Support 3-6
1 Leman Russ - 176/12
Punisher Gatling Cannon
Heavy Bolter
Heavy Bolter Sponsoons 

1 Leman Russ - 176/12
Punisher Gatling Cannon
Heavy Bolter
Heavy Bolter Sponsoons 

001 Basilisk - 108/6
Earthshaker cannon
Heavy Bolter

001 Manticore - 133/7
Storm Eagle Rockets
Heavy Bolter

Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment
Lord of War 1

1 Knight Crusader - 540
Avenger Gatling Cannon
Heavy Flamer
Heavy Stubber
Rapid Fire Battlecannon

Total Roster = 2000
Power Level = 112


Offline Lt_PliskinAJ

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #1 on: July 5, 2017, 05:49:02 PM »
I'm not 100% on how good Russes are going to be now. I know they arn't the best now for horde duty, that roll went back to the trusty lasgun. A infantry team can now pump out near 40 shots with a order while a Punisher fully kitted is 32.

I would seriously consider taking out your lascannons and putting them in dedicated squads. Right now you need to use up all your orders to get 2/3 of your lascannons orders. You can give 2 orders to both teams and still have 2 others for the rest of your army if they are in dedicated squads, also with this rule set you can pick your targets so you don't have to fire all 3 into one target.


Right now the new edition is really too new to know what will work best and this is a completely new game of 40k. I'm suspecting Russes will move more towards big game hunters and be able to tar pit allowing the hordes of lasguns to do their jobs.

For the next couple of weeks I'm going to be playing a nearly the same mech list I have done for nearly 10 years to see how it does but I'm suspecting I'm going to move to almost all infantry and orders.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #2 on: July 5, 2017, 08:24:30 PM »
Most Leman Russ aren't great, true, but Punishers are still just as good as they ever were. You'll get a lot more anti-infantry mileage out of then than out of lasguns.

Offline Akaitsuki

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #3 on: July 5, 2017, 08:45:50 PM »
Thanks for the input guys.

I do think Punishers and Demolishers are worth their salt in 8th from the research i've done on them that seems to be the case.

I do see what you mean in suggesting the lascannons be made into heavy weapons teams, i'd have to scrap for points though as i am currently at 2000 on the dot. But your suggestion is a good one will see about using it.

Offline Killersquid

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #4 on: July 5, 2017, 09:56:34 PM »
Only thing I'd suggest, is to try and find room for a Commissar somewhere, to help stop guys from fleeing. Otherwise, looks like a nasty list.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #5 on: July 6, 2017, 06:03:38 AM »
Thanks for the input guys.

I do think Punishers and Demolishers are worth their salt in 8th from the research i've done on them that seems to be the case.

Demolishers? With Guard BS? Do elaborate--how are they worth it?

Offline Lt_PliskinAJ

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #6 on: July 6, 2017, 12:24:53 PM »
Right now with Russes shooting with guard BS I am not a huge fan. Heck even the hellhound with its 16" range isn't all that great, it will either kill what its shooting at or be in CC the next turn.

If they do something in the new codex like having Russes blast weapons re-roll hits I could see the Russ coming back to horde action. Right now I see it as a big game hunter/tar pit. Problem is infantry can do either of those jobs better. Conscripts 50 wounds and lascannon/missile launcher teams for big game.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #7 on: July 6, 2017, 01:12:11 PM »
I think that russes do have some utility, in that they can be mobile, are very tough, and taking triple heavy flamers can make for a nasty, nasty unit for holding the line or clearing objectives.

Punishers, as mentioned, work just fine as horde control and for only slightly more than they used to cost. Even if you go straight apples-to-apples and compare their damage output with that of the same points worth of guardsmen w/lasguns (which is about 40 of them), the Punisher equals or exceeds them against a lot of targets and at better range. Plus let's not forget about board space. 40 guardsmen are great and all, but getting them all on the board and all shooting at the exact same target is frequently implausible.

Demolishers I don't see, since you get about the same damage output from the Battle Cannon for about half the cost most of the time.

Executioners can work if you've got them as a Tank Commander--the added BS and shooting on Overcharge can stack wounds on targets pretty quick. Tank will probably melt down, but then it always did, so no change there. 

Beyond that, there isn't much that a Russ can do that you can't do just as well with a Basilisk, lots of guardsmen, or a bunch of heavy weapon squads/Command Squads. 

Offline Akaitsuki

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #8 on: July 6, 2017, 03:08:47 PM »
Demolishers excel at targeting units with T7+ aka Monsters and Vehicles. They do this better than almost anything else in the Guard codex. If you are using Demolishers to hunt infantry either in this or any previous edition then you are doing it wrong. They are there to take care of the tougher targets (including elite infantry) which again they do better against than almost anything else. The FAQ even clarified that they get D6 against units of 5+ models which helps.

Here is a mathhammer chart to showcase the difference in power between guard weaponry.

Link to that blog removed as it breaches copyright rules, please see forum rule 1 for details - Iris.
« Last Edit: July 6, 2017, 07:19:40 PM by Irisado »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #9 on: July 6, 2017, 03:24:53 PM »
That math is misleading and not terribly useful for a number of reasons. Honestly, it doesn't take a genius to see that the Demolisher cannon would perform best against T5 targets.

However, what that table does not take into account is how much it costs to put one of those guns on the field. Assuming you take the thing *bare bones* (just a heavy bolter on the hull), you are paying the same cost as 7 Lascannon teams (well, actually about 12 points more, but let's just round up). If we want to talk comparisons, then, let's compare one Demolisher cannon against 7 lascannon shots.

A lascannon has double the effective range.
A lascannon has the same BS.
A lascannon has the same AP.
A lascannon does the exact same amount of damage.
The lascannons will get a consistent 7 shots every time they fire and they don't care how many models are in the target unit.
The Demolisher will wound on a 2+ on T5, but the same on anything higher or lower than that (in that we've yet to see a T9 unit).

The thing that the Demolisher has going for it, basically, is that it's harder to kill. Of course, if you hide lascannons in squads all over the board (which drops the cost by about 30 points, buying you more lascannons overall) or use their range to keep them back from trouble, it becomes a lot harder to silence them entirely.

So no, demolisher cannons are not the best thing in the guard codex at targeting T7+, not even by that data. Not by a long shot, really, since you're pretty much never going to see T7+ units of 5 or more models, meaning you're using the less impressive stats.

Paying a premium of ~20 points over a battlecannon to get a .42 bonus to wound T7 at a third the range does not sound like a good buy to me. And I wouldn't even buy the battle cannon. You'd be better off, in both instances, by buying an Earthshaker cannon.     
 
« Last Edit: July 6, 2017, 03:52:11 PM by Wyddr »

Offline Lt_PliskinAJ

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #10 on: July 6, 2017, 04:51:40 PM »
Demolishes cannon stats
2 shots on average
1 shot hits on average

At that point its a lascannon with +1 STR. On its best day its 3 lascannons against things it should be shooting at.

With the rules now its a better bet to go with a Leman Russ Annihilator and set it with a hull lascannon and some sponsons for defense, even then you pay a premium for it on a Russ.

My main problem with most armies is people put 1 of something in its a die rolling random game. 1-2 of something allows for some big statistical anomalies, sure a lot of people say its fun. I have always been a fan of so many of something it almost always averages out.

The 7 lascannons example has a high probability of doing exactly what you want it to while 1 Russ of any type now doesn't, before with blast templates you can pick targets that would mitigate the randomness. You could pick targets that would still hit others if scattered. I'm not saying no blasts are bad, I bet my opponents like it much more now, just we have to adjust our play styles.


Offline Wyddr

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #11 on: July 6, 2017, 06:05:14 PM »
They screwed large blasts over pretty hardcore, honestly. The upside is small blasts got better in many cases (frag grenades/missiles, mortars, etc).

So, yeah--Punishers and *maaaybe* Executioners, but in both cases mostly because they're hard to kill and will draw fire. Overall our tanks got worse. The only exception is the Taurox, which got way better.

Offline Akaitsuki

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #12 on: July 6, 2017, 09:05:23 PM »
I did say better than 'almost' anything. I didn't say absolutely better than everything.

For example the Manticore blows everything out of the water. I'd dare say it could even outperform that 7 lascannon example.

This doesn't mean the Demolisher isn't still a solid choice for a russ which is the main comparison here and in the chart, comparing the tanks to eachother and their potential damage output.

The deathstrike missile launcher for example will on average do about 5-6 guaranteed wounds just once per battle. This may seem like a terrible idea since it's once per battle but the fact that you can pretty much guarantee that many wounds on ANY target should be enough to at least consider it.

The Earthshaker which you mentioned is GOOD but the Storm Eagle Missiles are shown to be nearly twice as effective so should we then say 'never ever take a basilisk' ? point for point the Manticore is surely surperior no?

Anyway I think for the most part each tank has it's place, I own a demolisher and i intend to use it along with the punisher and once in a while the executioner which really isn't as good unless overcharging and killing itself.

Hopefully the codex will rebalance and give russes a break Large Blasts did indeed get the short end of the stick. But even worst are anything that had a Massive or Apocalyptic Blast...my Ork Kill Tank's bursta cannon is absolute trash now after winning me many games in 7th.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #13 on: July 7, 2017, 09:46:48 AM »
Before I start here, I just want to make clear that you can field whatever you think is cool--this game is supposed to be fun, after all. However, if we're going to have a discussion about what is effective, that discussion is frequently going to tell you things you'd rather not hear.

I did say better than 'almost' anything. I didn't say absolutely better than everything.

I would contend that they do worse than most things, especially when taking into account what it costs to field.

Quote
For example the Manticore blows everything out of the water. I'd dare say it could even outperform that 7 lascannon example.

For the cost of a Manticore you could get 5 lascannons, almost 6 (or a solid 6.5 of them if you don't use heavy weapons squads). Just eyeballing the probabilities there, you're looking at a comparable damage output, overall. It is worth noting, however, that the Manticore can only shoot 4 times.   

Quote
This doesn't mean the Demolisher isn't still a solid choice for a russ which is the main comparison here and in the chart, comparing the tanks to eachother and their potential damage output.

Even against other Russ chassis, I'd rate the Demolisher about middle of the pack. The Punisher is obviously the most useful, followed by the Executioner and then the Standard Russ. Then the Demolisher, Exterminator, Eradicator, and then the Vanquisher (which is cartoonishly awful). Overall I'd consider those last three to be so bad as to be essentially a waste of points. The Demolisher just clears that hurdle into "if you really want one" territory.   

Quote
The deathstrike missile launcher for example will on average do about 5-6 guaranteed wounds just once per battle. This may seem like a terrible idea since it's once per battle but the fact that you can pretty much guarantee that many wounds on ANY target should be enough to at least consider it.

The Deathstrike missile launcher is, and always has been, a terrible idea. If you could shoot it whenever you wanted, then fine. Since you cannot do this and have to pay 40 points (!) more for it than you do for a Manticore, I cannot imagine why anybody would field it besides just for fun. 5-6 wounds is a laughably small damage output for *an entire game* from one unit. Just about every single other unit in the codex can reasonably expect to top this number (point for point) across 5-6 turns of play. Even the Demolisher is vastly superior.   

Quote
The Earthshaker which you mentioned is GOOD but the Storm Eagle Missiles are shown to be nearly twice as effective so should we then say 'never ever take a basilisk' ? point for point the Manticore is surely surperior no?

You are correct. It should be noted that I did not say the Basilisk is good, but only that it is *better* than the Demolisher or standard Leman Russ (which gives you an idea of how bad *they* are). It's only distinction is that it is relatively cheap and, unlike the Manticore, can fire all game. Even still you're probably better off with Manticores, Heavy Weapon Squads, and massed infantry.   

Quote
Anyway I think for the most part each tank has it's place, I own a demolisher and i intend to use it along with the punisher and once in a while the executioner which really isn't as good unless overcharging and killing itself.

Look, if you really like the Demolisher, by all means field it. But if you're asking whether it's any good or not, unfortunately the answer is "not really." I'm with you--I think the Demolisher is cool--but it got kicked in the teeth pretty damned hard this edition.

As for the Executioner, it has several things going for it over a Demolisher. First, it can take plasma cannon sponsons and still cost only 7-8 points more than a Demolisher without sponsons. Second, it has better range and the strength on its guns (especially overcharged) are basically just as good as the demolisher against any target with T7 or less.

The overheat thing is a problem, but a problem that can be at least partially mitigated by either tank orders or the expenditure of Command Points. I believe the payoff outweighs the risks in many instances, but I would say that the Executioner isn't all that great unless you make it a Tank Commander for the boosted BS (but then it can't get the benefit of its own orders, which is too bad). 

Quote
Hopefully the codex will rebalance and give russes a break Large Blasts did indeed get the short end of the stick. But even worst are anything that had a Massive or Apocalyptic Blast...my Ork Kill Tank's bursta cannon is absolute trash now after winning me many games in 7th.

I think the blast thing can be easily settled by just giving large blasts 2d6 shots (or even just a set number of shots). Of course, everybody who plays against guard would howl about this, but in the end it would work out to the weapons doing *about* as much damage as they did in 7th edition and earlier.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #14 on: July 7, 2017, 01:30:18 PM »
@ Lt_PliskinAJ

I've only got one game of new 40k under my belt so, unfortunately I can't really tell you what's good to take.  I would love to hear how this list goes though, for intel.  :)

As for blast weapons, I think they should just give them their maximum D6 result as their attack value.  So 3-6 most of the time, with the occasional twelve.  The random factor is the model still needing to roll to hit after all.

Offline Killersquid

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #15 on: July 7, 2017, 01:44:20 PM »
One thing to keep in mind, is a lot of the points in 8th is based on endurance, more than damage output. 7 lascannon teams have more damage than a Russ, but less staying power.

I was playing against a buddy whoes necrons run a couple of doomsday arcs (same sort of weapon profile as a Demolisher), and they were super hard to deal with and did a lot of damage. More so a virtue of higher toughness and wounds.

Just saying, give the Russes a shot and see how it goes. Bad rolls for shots can also be mitigated by command points, and guard can get a lot of them pretty easily.

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #16 on: July 7, 2017, 01:48:36 PM »
I agree that it seems durability is the key cost factor in 8th. I'm not convinced (yet) that armor is better than guns, though. We'll see, but right now it still looks like the best defense is a good offense, just as has always been the case.

Offline Akaitsuki

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Re: Imperium - Astra Militarum - 2000
« Reply #17 on: July 7, 2017, 10:56:39 PM »
I see what you are saying but I feel you've been right up to the part where you claim the Demolisher isn't in the creme of the crop when it comes to Russ tanks.

Admittedly I haven't tried guard yet in this edition but going off previous editions the executioner would always kill itself. It did a fair job at wiping 3+ saves off the table but had a strong tendency to kill itself.

Looking at it now I don't see much difference if we go by the mathhammer chart I offered the Demolisher is CLEARLY much more effective than the executioner cannon that's just a fact without taking into account the point costs and all that.

In order for the executioner to compete in any way it HAS to overcharge it's gun every turn, and that comes with some large drawbacks that we know of.

If anything i'd say it is the executioner that's a 'decent' variant barely clearing hurdle. The standard Battle Tank seems to provide more mileage than the executioner as it will do work on all targets while not killing itself, running out of ammo or costing you an arm and a leg.

I will concede when I compared my own tanks (of which i have like 18) I did not at any point even consider to compare them to infantry squads and the like, so from my point of view Manticore, Basilisk, Punisher, Demolisher, Executioner/Battle Tank. In that order were the only decent ones to use. The Exterminator, Vanquisher, Deathstrike, Eradicator etc etc all seemed god awful on their damage output. Though again I can make a strong case for the Deathstrike even though you seem to think it's a terrible terrible idea i think differently.

Deathstrike Missile launcher is FUN first of all. If you played starcraft specially setting up that sweet sweet nuke on an unsuspecting opponent was always EPIC and hilarious to watch. The time's I got caught by one and scrambled to 'kill the ghost' marking me led to some of the funniest fun matches ive had playing the game. But all that sweetness aside let's look at it realistically in the previous rules the deathstrike did a massive amount of damage in a very very wide area of effect i have in the past successfully murdered half an opponent's army when they were unawares of the potential damage of this vehicle.

In this edition the area of effect seriously sucks BUT it doesnt mean that it won't hit like a ton of bricks depending on who you shoot it against.

A battle cannon does 1 wound per turn more or less against T8 units. Over the course of the game this means that you can expect unsaved 4-5 wounds inflicted on such targets

A demolisher cannon against that same target can be expected to do 7-9 wounds over the course of 5 game turns.

An overcharged executioner comes in at 6-7 wounds. WITHOUT overcharing it barely can be expected to do 2 wounds.

a punisher on the other hand can be expected to cause 3-5 wounds.

A guarantees an AVERAGE of 5.25 wounds on ANY target even the hardest to kill units. Which if we look at this comparison over the course of a game regardless of it shooting only once, it is MUCH cheaper than all of these leman russ variants and will put a lot more wounds on lets say a Land Raider than most leman russ variants can over the course of an entire game.

The earthshaker and manticore are still superior choices overall. But just saying the Deathstrike isn't a terrible choice man, shoot it at the right target and you are definetly getting a bargain. Remember with a bit of luck you could one shot a bunch of stuff AND do damage to their surroundings which you could and should consider as additional damage inflicted. It's all a matter of getting the shot to go off.

Deathstrike outperforms an executioner in every single way against just about every single target per game unless the Executioner overcharges it's pretty much as bad as a Vanquisher the math is there.

My favorite Tank is the punisher for the record. I own 1 demolisher, 2 executioners (so yes I have a vested interest in executioners being awesome but they just been disappointing me since i got them by killing themselves as often as they kill the enemy). I don't have any special attachment to the demolisher, but i looked at the math and it seemed undeniable.

HWT def do more damage than most if not all of these tanks and are point for point def a better choice in damage output alone. However the resilience is not at all there for heavy weapons teams and they are very easy to pick off even in cover.

 


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