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Offline Wyddr

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Fielding a Brigade...
« on: June 26, 2017, 09:56:51 AM »
Given how cheap everything in the Astra Militarum is these days, it seems eminently plausible, if not advisable, to field a full Brigade. You can do this pretty easily in 1500 points, and certainly easily in higher point levels.

By way of example:

HQ
Company Commander (Warlord)
Company Commander
Commissar
These two accompany all the infantry to kick out orders/keep them in line

Company Commander w/Powerfist
Rides in the Valkyrie with the Command Squads to try to keep them from melting their faces. Incidentally: holy crap are powerfists cheap these days!

Tank Commander in Executioner, Plasma Sponsons, Heavy Bolter
It's a real shame that the commander can't issue tank orders to himself. Honestly, this tank is probably overpriced for what it does, but I own one and I'll be damned if it's just going to sit on a shelf.

Troops
Infantry Squad w/Flamer
Infantry Squad w/Flamer
Infantry Squad w/Flamer
Infantry Squad w/Flamer
Infantry Squad w/Flamer
Infantry Squad w/Flamer
That's sixty dudes for short money. Throw around enough FR/SR orders and things will die. Or they'll die and you won't care--win/win!

Elites
5 Ratlings
Not sold on these little guys, but they're cheap and have some handy little abilities, so they're worth a shot. I might be better off with more heavy weapons, though.

3 Bullgryns w/Mauls, Slabshields
Countercharge unit. Their save with the shields is great and the mauls can put a big dent in a lot of units.

Command Squad w/4x Plasma Guns
Command Squad w/4x Plasma Guns
If I told you how much each of these squads cost, you might cry. Yes, they will be overcharging their plasma guns. With the commander nearby giving them orders, I expect they can get off a volley before their untimely demise. The only thing that matters is if they kill something worth more than they are. Given their cost (even with the commander), that shouldn't be hard.

Fast Attack
Scout Sentinel w/Missile Launcher
Scout Sentinel w/Missile Launcher
Scout Sentinel w/Missile Launcher
Cheap and versatile, can be used to block off sections of the board from those sneaky units that show up with a 9" bubble. Indeed, the entire army has such a large footprint, most armies will really struggle to put something in your backfield if you don't want it there.

Heavy Support
Leman Russ Punisher w/3x Heavy Bolters
My current vote for most cost-effective tank. Any support it receives from the Tank Commander makes it even better.

Lascannon Squad
Autocannon Squad
Heavy Weapon teams are crazy cheap, guys. Crazy, crazy cheap.

Flyers
Valkyrie w/Multilaser, Multirocket Pods, Door Hvy Bolters
Shuttles the Command Squads about, shoots things.

Totals
This comes to about 50 points over 1500, so I can see cutting the Ratlings and/or maybe the Commissar (if you need somebody to stick, you have 12 CP to do it with)

12 Command Points
22-drop Deployment

So, you will pretty much *always* be going second, but the number of guns you put on the board might counteract that liability.

The question sort of becomes "do you need 12 CP." I haven't really played or tested out enough 8th Edition to say as of yet, but it seems as though it might be really handy. The only problem comes from Matched Play, where you can only use each command ability once per turn (I feel like the command re-rolls should be immune to that rule, but whatever).

Thoughts? 
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 11:32:26 AM by Wyddr »

Offline Lt_PliskinAJ

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Re: Fielding a Brigade...
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2017, 09:07:13 PM »
I have only played 1 game of 8th so far and my list was far from optimized. I tried a few things out just to see how they work.

1. Valks under impressed me. Sure you can shoot all your guns but they are all heavy so unless your hovering your at a +1 to hit. I was getting an impressive amount of shots 10-12 but maybe 2 wounds I also got assaulted by "jump" FLY infantry. It took a few wounds and I had to hover to have any chance of hitting anything.

1a. Instead of dropping a valk and 2 command squads/hq to murder something. I opted to have 2 scion squads and a prime. With the new deepstrike they just show up 9" away and let out 4 plasma guns and 3 plasma pistols along with some hellgun shots. If you want the mass you can change to a Scion Command for only 3 points more per model and save some points on dropping the valk.

2. Wyverns were amazing, allowing to re roll wounds paid off and they did a decent job also I could use there heavy bolters on another target.

3. Sentinels did well to have area denial. I ran a squad of 3 with my old 2 m-laser and 1 flamer.

4. Commissar is Elite, Lord Commissar is HQ.

5. Bullgryns as a counter charge unit. Probably be good, I used 2 units of roughriders and I used them wrong but the lance isn't a 1 and done anymore. Just disengage and then charge again later, they scared my opponent and he focused them down. I haven't used them ... well forever. I have had 2 units of DKOK riders and used them in my first game in 2 years.

6. Yes the 12 is awesome. I ran through all 6 of mine very fast, the fact I had them I took a bit more risks like first turn charges and such. I can see where 12 will be great. Just count on always re-rolling stealing initiative on turn 1.

7. RUMOR has it that we will get a proper IG book in August. I'm making lists but not going to modify anything until after.

Offline Killersquid

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Re: Fielding a Brigade...
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2017, 09:11:10 PM »
Command points are pretty great, and having more of them is better. The counter-attack command trait has saved my bacon more then once.

The re-rolls are good too. If you can play a brigade without too much compromise, then go for it.

It's too early to tell what's really good or not yet composition wise, I think as long as your list is balanced you should be fine.

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Fielding a Brigade...
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2017, 09:10:40 AM »
1. Valks under impressed me. Sure you can shoot all your guns but they are all heavy so unless your hovering your at a +1 to hit. I was getting an impressive amount of shots 10-12 but maybe 2 wounds I also got assaulted by "jump" FLY infantry. It took a few wounds and I had to hover to have any chance of hitting anything.

Yeah, I get that--the to-hit penalty sucks. But as a vehicle it is *really* durable and something that has no trouble flying around in the enemy backfield, drawing fire. Not a lot in the Guard arsenal that can do the same.

Quote
1a. Instead of dropping a valk and 2 command squads/hq to murder something. I opted to have 2 scion squads and a prime. With the new deepstrike they just show up 9" away and let out 4 plasma guns and 3 plasma pistols along with some hellgun shots. If you want the mass you can change to a Scion Command for only 3 points more per model and save some points on dropping the valk.

My primary reason for going Command Squads over Scions is that they get double the firepower for fewer points (and I want the Valk/more vehicles on the board anyway). The Scion Command Squad is tempting, but I hate (loathe, despise) the plasma gunner pose on those models. It's just a bunch of dudes pointing in different directions. Granted, I could just take a few of my Vostroyans and say "these guys are Scions," but that's lame.

Besides, the Valk enables me to *avoid* having to worry about a 9" bubble if I disembark second turn, which can have some crucial uses.

I will think about it, though. Depends on what else I can get with the points I save from dropping the Valk (which, it must be said, I do not own yet anyway).

Quote
4. Commissar is Elite, Lord Commissar is HQ.

Ah--good catch. Thank you. 

The re-rolls are good too. If you can play a brigade without too much compromise, then go for it.

My only issue with the Command Re-roll is the Matched play "one per turn" restriction. In an army like the Guard, you aren't usually counting on any *one* particular roll to go well, so I'm at something of a loss as to what to spend it on in any given turn. I mean, I guess Plasma overheats on the Tank Commander would suck, but still...

Yeah, it very much looks like the Guard can field brigades very easily. Guard Infantry got a *lot* better and is super cheap and all sections of play are pretty useful (well, Fast Attack is a bit "meh" assuming you don't want to field horsies in the far future, but Scout Sentinels are okay).


Offline Killersquid

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Re: Fielding a Brigade...
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2017, 11:55:12 AM »
Well, Once per phase, which is still pretty good. Agreed, you can't burn them all in one turn, but that'd be pretty crazy.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Fielding a Brigade...
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2017, 12:29:50 PM »
I don't know that 12 rerolls in one turn (at the most) is *that* crazy, but the rule is the rule.

Notably it does not apply to power-level games, so we'll see how that pans out.

Offline Lt_PliskinAJ

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Re: Fielding a Brigade...
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2017, 12:56:31 PM »
True about the stratagems but just on re-rolls and a short game of 5 turns you can have 43 re-rolls if you include rolling for initiative. That is if you don't need to use another stratagems. The brigade is so cheap and almost needed for guard at 1500-2000 points its a giving try for me now.

math notes
1: Initiative re-roll
25: 5 turns of 5 phases (your phases)
5: 5 turns of deny the witch
5: 5 turns of armor saves in close shooting
5: 5 turns of enemy close combat
2: end the game rolls
43 total

Plenty of opportunity for our completely average rolling in a game.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Fielding a Brigade...
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2017, 02:40:55 PM »
Oh, it's per phase! I'd misread that as per turn.

That's much better, actually.  :)

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Fielding a Brigade...
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2017, 03:20:22 PM »
Oh, it's per phase! I'd misread that as per turn.

That's much better, actually.  :)
It's Psychic Powers that are per turn.  So that might have been where the confusion is coming from.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Fielding a Brigade...
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2017, 05:28:43 PM »
That is probably what I was conflating, yes. One of the fun things about a totally new edition is working out all these kinks.

Offline TheEldarGuy

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Re: Fielding a Brigade...
« Reply #10 on: July 3, 2017, 02:59:39 AM »
The way I read the new FAQ, Command Squads don't take up a force org slot for each company Commander (maybe Platoon Commander also, I forget).

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Fielding a Brigade...
« Reply #11 on: July 3, 2017, 07:22:08 AM »
That's not what the FAQ says. It places a limit on the number of command squads you can take based on the number of officers. It doesn't say they don't take up a slot.

 


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