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Author Topic: Deathwatch Expansions  (Read 1712 times)

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Offline magenb

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Deathwatch Expansions
« on: June 25, 2017, 07:49:14 PM »
So I have some Deathwatch from the Death Masque box set and I'm considering expanding these, but there are a bunch of units they simply can not take like primaris marines.

Is anyone running a full Deathwatch force or are you running them as a seperate detatchment alongside another flavour? Just trying to work out what a 1500 point army might look like with these guys.

err looks like Terminies that are part of the troop kill team get special ammo, but he elite termies that are still deathwatch don't...

How are these guys dealing with mid to high Toughness? Just unload lots of S5 shots?

OK after crunching the numbers, Deathwatch is being point priced off the table. The special ammo is super nice and that Frag Cannon just makes you drool. I cant just make a very, very similar army under standard marines for considerably less points.
 
Double post merged in accordance with forum rule 4g - Iris.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 09:11:54 AM by Irisado »

Offline laucian_meliamne

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Re: Deathwatch Expansions
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2017, 02:39:12 PM »
Bit late to the party, but this thread isn't that old yet.

I'm currently working on a pure-Deathwatch army list. I haven't played any games with it yet (nor indeed any games of 8th edition so far), but I have a few thoughts...

1- Reading other sites (Bolter & Chainsword, DakkaDakkaDakka, assorted FB posts) it seems a lot of people are running DW alongside another army. Deathwatch's biggest weakness is that the units are all fairly expensive, so it lacks in volume of firepower and bodies. Running a cheap-ish detachment of Imperial Guard or Inquisitorial Acolytes to help bulk up the model count isn't unreasonable. I'm considering adding an inquisitor, an assassin, and a unit of acolytes to my army eventually.

2- Terminators can't benefit from Special Issue Ammunition; the rule specifically states that it applies to bolters, combi-bolters, bolt pistols, and guardian spears. Storm bolters can't make use of the special ammunition, unfortunately.

3- High toughness, non-vehicles aren't an issue. The special ammunition that wounds on a 2+ makes high-T targets relatively easy to deal with. For vehicles you're in more of a bind, and I'm still trying to figure that out. At close range the Frag Cannon is a good bet, as are meltaguns (combi- or otherwise). Missile launchers may also be worthwhile to add some long-range anti-vehicle utility.

Offline magenb

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Re: Deathwatch Expansions
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2017, 06:12:33 PM »
We did a few play tests with them. Stalker Pattern Boltguns are not bad, load them up with kraken rounds and you have some very nice range with AP, when they get a little closer vengeance rounds are fantastic, it doesn't cost too many points either.

S4 will Wound most tanks on a 5+ so combined with the AP value you can strip Wound off them, but the frag cannon still puts out a good number of shots and two in a squad can be devastating to anything that gets close and again has decent range and strength, you really don't need to force the half range to kill stuff with them. I found that if you are that close any way, you use the alternate fire mode :)

I think batttlescribe has a quirk, it will let you equip them with a boltgun and SPBoltgun. If this is legit, then it actually makes up for the high point cost given the new rules.

Missile launchers in Deathwatch are too high a point cost and do too little damage, sure they can put out a tone of shots but its AP 0, so most of them end up doing nothing. Unless you are playing against Horde armies with low armour values, then they are awesome, but you are better off just adding a friending Smurf Dev squad point wise.


Cheap units do not offer much protection, 2 fragcannons in a squad is amazing in overwatch, it means you only get charged in desperation/ignorance. I've found running them with a fire soaking unit, is more effective, the Corvus Blackstar works well as it can put out a serious amount of shots, so it a high enough threat to take up some of the fire. At 1500 points you can fit in a knight, but it becomes the biggest threat on the table and gets shot by everything.

Still tinkering, but some of the wargear restrictions feels very weird considering these are meant to be the elite space marines.

Offline laucian_meliamne

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Re: Deathwatch Expansions
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2017, 01:16:35 PM »
With the release of the new codex, apparently Deathwatch now have access to Primaris units (ref: New Pre-orders for the Space Marines – Warhammer Community, direct link to PDF: https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/ENG_Primaris_Marines_Release_04_July_29th.pdf).

Currently Primaris units don't get access to the special issue ammunition, but the ability to take a Primaris Apothecary to help keep your units alive seems pretty useful. And the ability to take some Rievers to prevent enemy overwatch shooting seems like it'd be super-useful when combined with a hard-hitting CC-equipped kill team.

Also, the DW shoulder pads do fit on both the Reiver and Aggressor models.  You need to shave down the right shoulder to get the chapter shoulder pad to fit on the Reivers, but it's doable




Offline magenb

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Re: Deathwatch Expansions
« Reply #4 on: August 1, 2017, 08:33:48 PM »
Yeah nice to see no additional points being added just because they are Deathwatch like all the other marines...

Intercessor squad is rather weird for DW, if you want to lock down a unit their fire type then it just 1 point extra for an extra wound per model, but we can already do their range and AP with a normal boltgun and better at closer range.

Hellblaster Squads are a nice fit though, it give DW some cheaper options over the Fragcannon (at range). 

Aggressor squad is a bit odd, they are slow, but would smash tanks in CC, while their shooting weapons are anti light infantry.

Reivers, don't actually need to get into CC, just need to use their shock grenades.


It's nice to have options, but I'm going to wait for the codex at this point.

Offline laucian_meliamne

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Re: Deathwatch Expansions
« Reply #5 on: August 4, 2017, 01:16:18 PM »
More good news (and new toys)! Forge World has updated the FAQ for Imperial Armour, and Deathwatch are now eligible to use the FW datasheets.  v1.1 here

I don't own a copy of this book (yet), but I'm definitely tempted by the idea of some Deathstorm Drop Pods and the Lucius Dreadnought Drop Pod.  (I've always had a soft-spot for Deathstorm 'Pods, to be honest -- I love the idea of dropping gun emplacements from orbit.)

Offline magenb

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Re: Deathwatch Expansions
« Reply #6 on: August 6, 2017, 05:49:37 PM »
Thanks Laucian

Offline laucian_meliamne

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Re: Deathwatch Expansions
« Reply #7 on: August 7, 2017, 06:25:09 PM »
No problem. There was a thread on FB when Forgeworld released the first FAQ for the IA Indices where people were very disappointed that DW couldn't use any of the resin goodies. I was surprised to see the change in the updated FAQs.

As for the Primaris units, I agree with the assessment that the Reivers don't actually need to charge to be effective. But given the range on the shock grenades it may be worthwhile charging anyway.  Definitely combining a unit of Reivers with an assault-oriented Kill Team could result in a pretty powerful combination.

The Aggressors' base movement is slow, but they are armed with assault weapons and can advance and fire without penalty, which makes up for the lower movement speed.  And the combination of anti-light-infantry guns and tank-smashing CC isn't that different from standard Terminators.  If anything, they have even better shooting since -- let's be honest here -- storm bolters are pretty pathetic as far as guns go.

Intercessors I'd definitely take a pass on. If they had access to special issue ammunition I'd definitely consider them. But as-is they're pretty bland.

The Hellblasters on the other hand could be useful.  Plasma in general seems way more viable now that there's the low-power option to avoid melting your own guys.  Each Hellblaster model is about the same cost as a DW veteran with a combi-plasma, so it's a trade-off between the additional wound + longer range vs the versatility and more overall shots with the combi weapon.  I think I'd rather have the kill team with the additional utility of the terminator and vanguard special rules, but I could see the counter-argument in favour of Hellblasters.

Offline magenb

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Re: Deathwatch Expansions
« Reply #8 on: August 8, 2017, 03:19:04 AM »
Yeah I'm in a conundrum at the moment, did a bunch of OT so I actually have a chance to buy some brand new kit, but really until that codex drops, its all too airy fairy..

I really hope they fix the point cost for DW, right now its a huge up hill battle in point games. Which is where Reivers paired with an assault unit is just better with Ultramine versions (8PL vs 10PL or 90 vs 105 points base). I have found that PL using kill teams games they tend to work out OK, higher PL still, but it just seems to even out some how.

Offline laucian_meliamne

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Re: Deathwatch Expansions
« Reply #9 on: August 9, 2017, 06:12:14 PM »
I'm limiting my new-stuff purchases to a handful of kits I just like the look of; I really like the look of the Reivers (and wanted an extra skull helmet or two for some Chaplain conversions).  Might pick up the new Primaris Chaplain and/or Apothecary models just because they're nice-looking too. Probably won't bother getting the new grav tank though.

I'm skeptical that the new DW codex will come out anytime before next year. They said 12 books by the end of the year, and we've already got 3 accounted for (SM, GK, and CSM).  Add another 1-2 Chaos-oriented books (Death Guard, something Daemon-specific), IG, DE, CWE, and Necrons and that brings us to 8-9 books.  If I had to guess as to the last three, I'd probably put Tyranids, Tau, and Orks on the list.

That said, I'm honestly surprised that GK are getting a book this early in the release cycle. So DW might come out earlier than I'm estimating. Their models are all still pretty new, so it'd be relatively cheap to just toss out the new book and do a quiet launch that doesn't include any shiny new toys. Maybe release some DW-specific Primaris boxes that include the upgrade sprue (since the shoulders fit almost everything right out of the box).

But thinking of points-cost adjustments I'd like to see, let's bring up the Infernus Heavy Bolter. That is a super over-priced piece of kit. It wasn't worth taking in 7E, and it's still just as bad in 8E. PL games you might as well take it instead of a heavy bolter, but as soon as points come in it's just not worth it as far as I can see.

Offline magenb

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Re: Deathwatch Expansions
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2017, 06:14:45 PM »
I'm skeptical that the new DW codex will come out anytime before next year. They said 12 books by the end of the year, and we've already got 3 accounted for (SM, GK, and CSM).  Add another 1-2 Chaos-oriented books (Death Guard, something Daemon-specific), IG, DE, CWE, and Necrons and that brings us to 8-9 books.  If I had to guess as to the last three, I'd probably put Tyranids, Tau, and Orks on the list.

I suspect the 10 codex before Christmas will mostly be Marine flavours, really there is not a lot of extra work to drop out a new marine book once you have the standard marine codex out. Combine that with GW pushing Marines/Chaos hard at the moment (global Campaign), with the Chapter approved book already staying Orks, DE and Necrons will not have a codex by Christmas. I'm betting another good side+bad side codex set, so Deathguard and which ever SM flavour is their next biggest seller, BA/DA/SW.

 


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