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Author Topic: Let's Discuss Superheavies...  (Read 2359 times)

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Offline Wyddr

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Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« on: January 2, 2016, 01:40:45 PM »
I'm thinking I want to buy a Baneblade variant. I've run some tests and I think I'm likely to be very fond of the Hellhammer, but I'm interested in hearing everybody else's thoughts on these tanks.

Caveat: Not especially interested in the "don't take Baneblades" discussion (yes, yes--they're overpriced, I get it). If you were to take one, which one would you take, how would you use it, and what kind of army would you use to supplement it?

I've been goofing around with a Hellhammer supported by some infantry backed up by an Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company. It works serviceably well, but those are only tests and not real games.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #1 on: January 2, 2016, 02:11:17 PM »
I would get one of the variants that can transport infantry.  The Stormlord or the Doomhammer.  With their huge numbers of Fire Points you can almost bring the full firepower of an infantry platoon to bare from within the safety of a Super Heavy.  With out riding escorts you could drive right into the heart of the enemy.
« Last Edit: January 2, 2016, 02:21:06 PM by Skitarii Santa »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #2 on: January 2, 2016, 02:36:18 PM »
I did think those looked cool, but the tank itself loses a lot of firepower and you couldn't load heavy weapons and move, so that's just plasma, pretty much. The Stormlord is *still* tempting, but having to fill it with infantry and special weapons and such does add to the cost by a lot and the main guns on those tanks are good, but not great.

Incidentally, where *are* the firepoints on those variants? From the pictures, it looks as though they couldn't fire *straight ahead*, which would be a big problem, given the main gun can't shoot any other direction.   

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #3 on: January 3, 2016, 10:07:16 AM »
The Stormlord has rules that allow the embarked passengers to shoot from anywhere on the model.

Hellhammer is the stand-out option, to me. Ig-Co is awesomeness, and on a bigger-than-standard blast? Good times.

For the price of a tooled-up HH, you could almost take two Knights. I'm just sayin', that D-Class melee and stomps both ignore cover. ;)

I would want to support a HH the same way I'd support a squadron of Russes. Bubblewrap with infantry. Maintain some faster elements to capture objectives. I'd want to leverage the firepower with a Kurov's Aquila. Using one while embarked upon a Transport Variant would allow you to basically leverage your whole army, if you were so inclined.

Outflanking Armoured Sentinels, from the Mont'Ka book, would be helpful in a big way.

The trouble, of course, is that you use up 40% of your points in one model, if you're playing 1500 points. If you spend a couple hundred more points on infantry to protect the HH, you've spent over half your points. I think running a HH, or any variant, is a handicap, but to each their own.
« Last Edit: January 3, 2016, 10:08:44 AM by Spectral Arbor »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #4 on: January 4, 2016, 12:29:07 PM »
At what point level would you consider them less of a handicap? I mean, sure, Knights are better, but that's because Baneblades are *overpriced* and Knights are *underpriced.* All of these things should cost about 450.

I'd probably only be able to fit one into a 1750 or 1850 game. The firepower and (ironically) mobility it affords isn't to be underestimated. The Baneblade or Hellhammer has better fire output than their equivalent points in Leman Russ tanks and are more durable to boot. I feel like if you were planning on taking 3 Russes *anyway,* spending the extra 70 points to get a Hellhammer isn't such a bad plan. 

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #5 on: January 4, 2016, 08:10:08 PM »
I'm not a fan of squadron'd Russ, either. :)

What points level would I personally consider them "practical"? Close to 2000 points. 1850, at the least.

Reason being, that in my mind, I've got a big gun platform, that needs 200 to 300 points of infantry to wrap around it and keep it reasonably safe. If I'm doing that, I want to protect more than just one unit, so I'd probably spend a further 300 points on Chimera Vets, or something along those lines. Maybe CCS in Chimera. If I did that, I could probably skimp a bit on the bubble wrap, as the Vets could be a last line of defence.

So all in all, I've got a "Big Tank", 2x Chimera-special-weapon-units, and then a pile of meat shields. That's going to eat up over 1100 points, 1200 if you add the sponsons. It all has to stick close together for the first few turns, until casualties make it unworkable, or the need to split up and rapidly redeploy to capture objectives takes priority. That leaves you with whatever's left [650 to 800 points] to make a working list at that size. So if your opponent doesn't want to give you much in way of targets, then you don't get to do much other than crawl forwards towards the centre, which becomes painfully predictable as a strategy after the first game or two.

Then what would you add? I'd want either Artillery or Mobility units. Mobility units would probably win out. So something along the lines of the Sentinel Formation, [300 points] and then try to squeeze some Valk-Vets, or maybe some Pod Vets [BA Allies: Lv 1 Divination Librarian, 5x Scouts, 3x Pods - approx. 225 points] and then Vets and a CCS [Use the Cadian Battle Group CCS for 3 orders] and then land with the ability to give an order to each squad. [CCS + 2x Vets + 150 points of upgrades = 320 points]

[Total 845 points-ish]

Possibly take the BA Death Company Dread [Troop Version] and ditch the Scouts. Gives you a mild Melee deterrant to pod in with the Vets. The points would need to be juggled, but I think you could pull it off at 2000.


And while you expressed a desire to not boil down to don't take Baneblades... Knights don't really need meat shields. It's not a terrible idea, to tie up something you don't want to melee, but they're not necessary so instead of 800 points of Hellhammer + Meat Shields, you could take a pair of Knights instead. From a strictly competitive view point, that's what keeps me from buying a Big-Tank.

PS: A Knight Paladin [Rapid Fire Battle Cannon] plus a Stormspear Rocket Launcher [Triple Krak Missile] costs 425 points... which is a touch underpriced. Compared to a Wraithknight with a pair of Scatter Lasers for 325 *grumble-gripe-whine-grumble*
« Last Edit: January 4, 2016, 08:14:03 PM by Spectral Arbor »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #6 on: January 5, 2016, 10:43:48 AM »
How much bubble wrapping is strictly necessary, though? Given the Superheavy's rear armor, Krak grenades aren't much of a threat (certainly not enough to worry about one or two assaults). Unless you're dealing with assault threats that throw a lot of Str 8 or are packed with meltabombs (and those are *relatively* rare), you probably only need a unit or two as a speedbump.

Certainly the prospect of Wraithguard, Fire Dragons, or similar short-range vehicle eaters is there, but these tanks do pack a LOT of firepower and have good range--to large extent they can take care of themselves.


Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #7 on: January 5, 2016, 12:53:47 PM »
Well, we have noted in the past that we have different Meta's. I run into Scythe wielding Necron Lords, Knights of the Imperial and Wraith Varieties, Wraith-Scythes, Chapter Masters on Bikes, Assault Termies, Melta bomb Sergeants galore, Tyranid MC...

Assault is alive and well in my neck of the woods. The infantry would be a necessary evil, for me. They would not last long, unprotected, in my area.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #8 on: January 5, 2016, 02:11:37 PM »
Of those, I would say that the Necrons units (by "Scythe Wraiths" I assume you mean Destroyer Lord + Warscythe among Wraiths, yes?) seem the most troublesome. Wraithknights and Imperial Knights can be shot down quickly enough (assuming instead of bubble wrap you buy more guns), the occasional Meltabomb just isn't a big deal to a superheavy with that many HP.

Tyranid MCs? Assault Termies? I haven't seen much of either of those since 6th. I do feel they both fall into the category of "can probably kill it before it gets close/can weather a round of assault or two before being taken out."

And of course there are Superheavies that could be kitted specifically to cope with some of those threats. A Stormlord packed with heavy/special weapon kitted troops would be an awkward assault target against a lot of those things.

I'm not saying the Superheavy requires no escort at all, but there is something to be said for a good offense being the best defense.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #9 on: January 5, 2016, 07:21:17 PM »
I meant Wraithguard with D-Scythes, but I can see what you were going with. We've seen a resurgence of dedicated assault units in my metagame. We're all pretty much taking at least one dedicated assault unit, in response to most "typical" units being terrible in CC. You no longer need to worry about a hidden fist in every tactical squad, so many CC units can be highly effective, due to lack of resistance. I have a group of 5 other guys, plus myself for 6, and we all pretty much agree that while armies that focus purely on assault fail horribly, an army that focusses entirely upon shooting will usually be outplayed by an 80 shooty /20 choppy army. Might just be our meta, but it's my honest experience.

I was rofl-stomped by a Tyranid "Mostly Choppy" list that Hallolet played... though I was playing Blood Angels at the time, so it was kind of like a cripple beating up... someone that's even more horribly crippled. I just joke, I don't think the Nid codex is that terrible. Just needs to be built to it's specific strengths and no flavour allowed.

Shooting down Knights "quickly enough". You play a different game, my friend. :) You should get someone you know to proxy a trio, at 2000 points. Or a pair of them, at 1500. If you can down them before they "Stomp" you, you're a better man than I. To be fair, I've never played with or faced a Big-Tank. Maybe they're more... effective... than I'd think.

THAT SAID!

I'll place you a wager, with a handful of conditions.

The wager: I believe that if you play a 2000 point game, using a Hellhammer supported by AM [only], and your opponent uses 2 Imperial Knights, supported by something decent, you'll lose by a 3:2 margin in points, and will have 3:2 points value of models destroyed in the process. In other words, I'd wager that you'd lose a game along the lines of 6 points to 4, while loosing 1500 points of your models to 1000 points of your opponent's models being lost.

The conditions: You must play against your most skilled opponent. They must use the Knights aggressively, attempting to use them like Melee-beasts that can shoot. A big nasty spear-tip, kept within 12" of each other as reasonably as possible. He [she?] can't use them as separate flanking elements. If your opponent doesn't play an Imperial Faction, the Knight can't be treated as "Desperate / Come The Appocalypse" during the game. Meaning they won't attack their own dudes, and can be set up within 12" of allied models.

You must document the game as a battle report. Because if you don't have pics, it didn't happen. And I happen to enjoy reading your battle reports.

My ante: If you do not lose by the expected margins, I will create and send to you by mail a Gold Star, about the size of a piece of standard 8.5 x 11 paper, that says something to the effect of, "Spectral Arbor is a blow hard that should keep his big mouth shut, and hereby acknowledges Wydrr's superior insight into the game of 40k." If you actually win the game, I'll have to make it poetic, or something.

If I'm correct, then my self righteousness is justified and I can wallow in my smugness, which will be reward enough. I do love a good wallow.

[I'm fishing for a battle report here, just do it! Plus, you can totally rig the game and get a free gold star! ;) ]



I can't remember if there's a 2-Knight battleforged detachment, so they might have to play 3 knights instead. Just make some cardboard cutouts, they're about 6" tall, put on a largish chariot-type base. Slightly bigger than a flyer base.
« Last Edit: January 5, 2016, 07:24:40 PM by Spectral Arbor »

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #10 on: January 5, 2016, 08:25:12 PM »
In order for that to work, I'm going to need to find somebody around here who plays more than 1 Imperial Knight!

That said, if the opportunity arises, I'll take that challenge. I've been messing around with the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company lately and HOLY CRAP does it blow up things fast.

Oh, and I have a tendency to make my Hellhammer Invisible. So there's that.  ;)

All in tests, mind you. Me playing to beat myself using my map-making program. Hardly the real thing, but a reasonable indication of what the weapons platform is capable of.

In any event, the idea is intriguing enough to try. Only at 1750 or higher, mind you.

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2016, 04:54:24 PM »
Just curious if you ever ended up trying to use this tank, and how it went if you did spring for it?

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Let's Discuss Superheavies...
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2016, 05:21:01 PM »
Not yet. My IG force is fairly small as of yet. I plan to, however. It may take some months.

 


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