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Author Topic: How to [maybe] Win with Imperial Guard - Part 29: What can Mont\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'Ka do for you?  (Read 2176 times)

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Offline Spectral Arbor

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HTWWIG – Part 29: What can Mont'Ka do for you?

Disclaimer: I haven't used any of these formations in a game, yet. This is just my taking a look at what's new, and trying to predict what will be successful and what won't, based on my experience. Feel free to reply with your thoughts! I hope to come back in a couple months, and revisit this with my in-game experiences.

The Short Version: The Decurion-style detachment is nearly impossible to achieve, with the Mont'Ka restrictions. The cheaper “Core” choice will typically be around 840 points. And that's for 5 Leman Russ tanks, and an Enginseer. Then you've got to buy some “Three-Of” auxiliaries. Have you noticed that, yet? Everything must be bought in threes! We command it!

The Heirlooms are fun, with the Cane and Pistol being auto-includes for me. Cheap, and awesome!

The Warlord traits have exactly one AMAZING warlord trait, and one trait that turns every single character in your army into a suicidal imbecile. I'd never roll on this table. If I could have a guaranteed “Dead-eye Shot”...


Battle Group Command: Why these are stupidly amazing.

Did you use Company Command Squads, before now? Well, how about doubling the range of orders, and getting another one for absolutely nothing. And when you issue those orders? They'll be easier to pass, if issued to another unit from this Detachment. No additional expense. Just more, longer range, easier to pass, free orders. Sadly, the Core choices that unlock Auxiliaries are gigantic.

10 / 10 – Free, awesome rules, and they're a unit I've always secretly wanted to spam the spamedy spam-spam out of. Now we can. See the Flyer formation below, and imagine an Elysian style list dropping without scatter... Vendettas full of Company Command Squads slinging orders [Ignores Cover, ftw!] to non-scattering Veteran squads that drop out of Valks with Plasma and Demo Charges. While a Psykana Division drops out beside them, and everything re-rolls misses.


Core Choice – Emperor's Shield Infantry Company: You aren't going to be playing with it.

We'll start with the ridiculous. You need to take a Command Squad, as your Battle Group Command, to unlock 1-3 core choices. May it never be said that GW doesn't have a sense of humour. Just wait for the math at the end. Let's say that we spend 76 points on that CCS from the BGC. Now The Emperor's Shield Infantry Company. At a MINIMUM this CORE FORMATION consists of...

1x Company Command Squad
3x Platoon Command Squad
15x Infantry Squad
3x [Armoured] Sentinel

For those of you playing at home... that's a MINIMUM of 170 infantry. Min-I-Mum. No Commissars, no Priests, no Psykers. Let's assume that we spend an average of 16 points on each squad, for upgrades. Let's further assume, that we spend an average of 5 points per Armoured Sentinel, on upgrades. That means we'd spend 76 [BGC Squad] + 1339 = 1415 points, to unlock our first Auxiliary choice. Let's be honest. We need some Priests and Commies to hold our amphetamine parrot together. So no Aux choices at 1500 points. Hoo-rah!

So what do we get?

Well, the Company Command Squad from the Core choice does not get the additional, long-range orders that the BGC does. So that's kind of amphetamine parrot. The orders are still easier to pass, though. With your fewer orders, you gain a unique order, that allows you to issue a massive, “Hey, everybody shoot that one unit over there” order. FRF, SRF on a massive scale. Which is funny, because you basically would be doing that anyway with large blobs, but I digress. This does leverage those fewer orders into larger numbers, although you have to wonder how many hundreds of shots that one Tactical squad is going to need. And then you remember that a given las-shot has a 1/18 chance to kill an MEQ target, so if you need to kill 10, you're looking at a solid 180 shots, or 90 duders with a long-range FRF, SRF order. Yes, some are going to re-roll some attacks, thanks to Sharp Shooter, but only the lasguns. Lame.

You do, however, get some infantry that are pretty mobile... for infantry. If you stay near the Sentinels, the infantry have an easier time moving through terrain, which is handy since you'll need that to stay alive. The PCS also have an order that makes taking Heavy Weapons, and potentially Salvo Weapons, better on moving infantry. More accurate, you might say.

That said, the mobile infantry is a benefit of a smaller “Emperor's Shield Platoon” Formation, that costs less than 1/3 of the “Core” choice.

So in the end, after taking 170 infantry, your benefit is that you can benefit from Sharpshooter [Whoopee!] and you can issue a massive FRF, SRF order... that you would only ever need if you had 7 different units that all wanted to shoot the same target. And if you issue an order to someone, they're more likely to pass. Otherwise, with other formations, you can take infantry in smaller doses, that still have the mobility benefits.

I wouldn't take this core formation. A PCS gets one order, so having that order be easier to pass is unimportant. You could be issuing better orders from the improved BGC, although at standard difficulty [without a core choice, the ordered units couldn't be part of the same detachment]. Nothing stops you from taking 5 BGC's. Nothing at all. That's what Voxes are for, my boy! Oh, and those other infantry aren't as accurate with their lasguns. Soooo sad. The benefits are crippled by the drawbacks, especially since the only benefit that “trickles down” after the improved orders is Sharpshooter, as the only Auxiliaries that benefit are more Emperor's Shield Platoons [YES! Let's play 2000 points of nothing but 230 infantry! My movement phase takes two hours per turn.] and the Emperor's Blade Assault Company. If they're relying on Lasguns for damage, you've beslubbered up. Try again.

Oh yes, the joke. One BGC unlocks 1-3 Core choices. 3 Core Choice x 1339 per Core choice + 1 x 76 per Battle Group Command = 4093 points [515 Infantry] plus 9 Sentinels [405 points] = 4498 points. You're playing an Apocalypse battle. You can cover an 8x4 board with infantry models, all placed in coherency to each other, in a square pattern. And have 3 models left over. You can cover an entire 8x4 board, with no single space for one enemy model, on a 1” base. All by purchasing one Battle Group Command. You don't even need Auxiliaries!

0 / 10 – You can't effectively use it in a 1500 point list. It's too big and unwieldy, even for Guard. Was anyone taking multiple, full-sized Platoons in a serious match? If you were one of 10 people in the world [Looking at you, Hallolet!] that played with that many infantry, you're getting some pretty weak boosts, unless you really like throwing 200 Lasgun shots at something. There's nowhere near enough benefit to taking such a chunk of points.


Core Choice – Emperor's Fist Armoured Company: You're going to try it.

Since the infantry H.O.R.D.E. Is effectively impossible, you're going to try the Armoured Fist company. This will comprise of 5 Leman Russ tanks. I think it would be reasonable to take a mix of tanks, with an average of 30 points of upgrades. That makes a rough ballpark of 160 points per tank. Then you have to buy an Enginseer to, I don't know, be the singular infantry model on the board to attract bolters? This Core choice's practical points value is still a choking 870 points. You get a very useful accuracy boost to Russ that stick near the Commander. You also gain access to the “Venerable” perk if you keep the Enginseer close to your tanks. Say, hidden inside a box of them? :)

The benefit to ramming is rather questionable. I mean, they're slow. How are you going to get to ram something with a Russ? Orders aside, that's pretty impractical. If you're planning on ramming, you'll probably want to Upgrade with Kabe's Herald, so you can spread the orders around.

7 / 10 – Russes are still Russes, but improved accuracy is very nice. Going this route is likely going to lead to playing a slow-rolling blob, which I've already played to moderate success, but bonus rules will take it from crippled to gimping along. So that's something.


So what are you going to give those orders to? Why take the CCS in the BGC, when you're taking Tanks for your Core?

Mostly, because you don't need 7 Russes and no more points for auxiliaries in a 1500 point list. Also, because those tanks are going to need meat-shields. There are a couple of Auxiliaries that spring to mind. Keep in mind though, that we've only got 500 or so points left. Company Command Squad from the BCG, probably in a Chimera, 5 Russ and a Enginseer is going to add up to nearly 1000 points.


Auxiliary – Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoon [Stand Alone]: Go Big, or Go Home?

My problem with this Auxiliary is that it could be a Core choice in any other codex. It's big, bulky, restrictive, and the benefit is minor. IF you can keep your Sentinel/s alive, near some infantry, those infantry have an easier time moving through cover. If you're just taking one Sentinel, it's a model waiting to be binned, and then your additional mobility is gone with it. All you get now is an order that lets you move your Heavy Weapon models and fire at full accuracy. That order is just a twist on “Forwards, for the Emperor” which gives you a Battle Focus-like ability. Since movement is determined on a model by model basis, you could sit, shoot, then scoot, instead of move and shoot. The non-heavies would typically be moving faster, with F,ftE. 7th edition seems to favour conga-lines, so I'd say there's really little reason to take the ESIP as an Auxiliary, and it's way too expensive to take as a Core choice. Instead, you could take the next Auxiliary.

You're probably going to be spending about 420 points for a decently equipped formation, including a single Sentinel.

3 / 10 – The mobility benefits would let you bubble wrap the Russes from the Core choice, and keep pace for sure. But as bubble wrap, do you really want to be dumping a lot of points into weapons? They're meant to get in the way, and probably die in the process. I could probably skip a few Autocannons, to have more bodies.


Auxiliary – Infantry Platoon [Aux Only]: Straight outa' Codex.

Seriously, that's the description. It's not a stand-alone formation [Thanks Dog_of_War! :D ] but added to a Cadian Battle Group, instead of a CAD. You do get the easier to pass orders benefit, and more accurate lasguns, so that's something. Given that you have the standard, strategic flexibility of a Platoon, including the option of transports, if desired, they're a better version [thanks to improved orders and sharpshooter] than the standard codex. I find they're a staple of my armies, very seldom do I leave home without them, and they'd be better here.

You're going to start at about 178 points, but the sky's the limit with a Platoon. You can easily spend over 500 points, if you want to. If you're looking to bubble wrap a bunch of Russes, I'd probably start with a Platoon Command Squad, 2 x Infantry Squads, and 20 Conscripts, lead by a Commissar. I like them for the higher Ld, to ensure that order goes through on the 'Scripts. With a bit of equipment, I'd probably spend about 280 points on that.

6 / 10 – It's going to depend on how you'd rank Platoons in general. I like them. The gravy rules spilling down on them in the decurion-style list make them a bit better, so I might even give them a seven. It's kind of situational, as they'd probably be split between shielding the Russes, and protecting another Auxiliary choice.


Auxiliary – Super Heavy Support Element [Aux Only / Stand-Alone]: Codex: Big Tanks

You can now take the Baneblade variants as LoW, in a Decurion-Style list. You can also effectively play a 1500 point Stand-Alone formation consisting of 3x Big Tanks and an Enginseer. So this could be considered Codex: Big Tanks. It could also be Codex: Pimp that Enginseer. He's friggin' everywhere. Did they just be like, “Make'em buy an Enginseer model! Worked for Tomb Blades!”

Do you like lots of Super-Heavies in your regular games of 40k? I've got another joke for you.

(+) Knock, Knock.

[-] Who's there?

(+) Three Super-Heavies for our game today!

[-] Go beslubber yourself. No, seriously. Here's a pine cone and a jar of mayo. Have at it.

You'll spend 500 to 600 points on a single, or 1500 points on the formation.

1 / 10 or 101 / 10 – Either you don't want to play against super-heavies and gargantuans, or you do. If you want to field [or face] 3 Bane-Tanks in a battle-forged list, this will be your wet dream come true. If you can read between the lines of my joke, you can guess where I fit on that spectrum.


Auxiliary – Emperor's Blade Assault Company [Stand-Alone]: Mech Vets and a Hellhound [Variant] Squadron

This is a Formation that I would consider using as a genuine Stand-Alone. I'd often take a similar block of troops in a CAD, so free rules is free rules!

Do you like Mech Vets? Of course you do! Do you wish they were a little more useful? You're in luck! So long as your target is near an objective, all your guns now kick extra ass.

The only drawback to this formation is that you can't issue orders to embarked units, and that makes me sad. And the whole advancing Chimeras into certain death thing. Hellhound [variant] squads are OK, but they seldom make my lists.

You could reasonably combine this with the Core Tank formation, and you'd pretty much have a current rules Armoured Company. Well equipped, this formation would run you about 800 points, so unless you're playing in the 1750 range, you'd need to make some serious cuts to the upgrades to take a Battle Group Command, Tank Core, and the Mech Vets formation, to fit inside 1500 points. I think you could do it, I'm generous with my upgrades, but things would be pretty bare boned.

7 / 10 – Again, units that I'd probably use, boosted to have some free rules. I doubt I'd take fewer units in a typical list where I was focused on Chimera-Vets, so free rules is good times.

[To be continued...]

Post Merge: December  5, 2015, 10:16:16 AM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

Auxiliary – Emperor's Spear Aerial Company [Stand-Alone]: Elysian list, you say?

This is another formation that warrants consideration as a stand-alone. The power of this formation is somewhat subtle. The Astra Militarum is critically short on units that can move quickly, and maintain firepower. Imagine the following units in a CAD...

Veteran Squad in Valkyrie
Veteran Squad in Valkyrie
Company Command Squad [BGC, if possible] in Vendetta

Ideally, you'd want to swoop in, drop the cargo, and have the Company Command Squad issue orders to the disembarked units to kick ass. But to do so, you'd either risk units scattering all over the place with the standard Grav-Chute rules, or you'd need to spend a turn switching over to Hover mode, to ensure safe and reliable deployment of your dudes. This would either be risking 3 units scattering [quite probable] at which point they might wind up out of useful range, and even greater chance of scattering such that orders won't be able to be issued. The alternative is that your opponent can react to your movement, and boost themselves out of threat range, or scatter so that you must pick a single target to attack. Not to mention, your reserve rolls could leave your units' arrival spread across multiple turns.

Now, consider the same as working with the Emperor's Spear Formation. Part of the rules for the formation is that once you pass a reserve roll, all remaining units can choose to pass their arrival roll. By rolling the Company Command Squad last, you can help to ensure that on a turn that a Veteran squad arrives, they'll have orders to boost their effectiveness. If you are decently fortunate, you'll pass the first roll and all 3 units will arrive together. If you take reserve manipulation abilities, you're looking at a very good chance of that happening.

Further, you can burn onto the board and drop without scattering, in the same turn. Assuming you fly on 36”, and drop just behind the flyer, you could Rapid Fire anything within roughly 44 “ of your board edge. So in Dawn of War and Vanguard deployment, there are very few safe zones. In Hammer and Anvil, anything held back could be out of range on the arrival turn... but them's the breaks. Take Drop Pod allies if you're so squeamish!

That speedy deployment, combined with controllable location, means you can maximize the effectiveness of the close range shooting that the Vets can deliver. With the 3 orders that the BGC Company Command Squad can issue, that an order for everyone. Take Voxes, boost the effectiveness of the Emperor's Wrath formation below. Tee-hee. The CCS will be more likely to pass their own order, thanks to the Command Benefit for their formation [Minimum requirement is the BGC!].

So, off the top of my head, 3 units slinging Plasma / Melta at point blank range, with a couple Demo Charges thrown in, plus the benefits of orders [Ig-Co!] That's good times. Oh, and you might be able to shoot something with your Birds, too. Who knows?

The cost of this formation, for me, would typically be a Vendetta, 2x Valks with Multiple Missle Pods. That would cost 440 points. A Company Command Squad, with 2 Veteran squads, geared up for serious pine cone insertion would add another 330 or more points. You can get pretty crazy with upgrades, for CCS and Vets. This crew would pretty easily take up half the points of a 1500 point army, and would either have a tax of an additional HQ to put somewhere, or preclude your taking the BGC unit, and just take the CCS from the CAD. It think the 3rd order is probably worth it, to really lay down the beats.

This formation's value is not that it kicks ass on it's own, but allows you to create a reliable damage delivery system for the passengers. You could instead take the Blood Angels Taxi Force, and take a Tech Pries [Bolster Defences!] 5 Scouts, and 6 drop pods for about 315 points... and deploy 6 squads... half on the first turn... well, this formation is still usable, especially if you don't want to be doing allied shenanigans. Sweet Emperor, it's getting hard to justify taking the 3 birds... maybe they'll drop the price in the next codex...

[4 or 7] / 10 – Cool Factor, mostly. Also, it gives an “in faction” solution to a major problem facing the Guard, so props for that. The formation is great, but our birds are overcosted for what they do in the current rules, so that makes this hard to recommend. It scores a 4 when compared to a solid 8 for the Blood Angels Taxi Force, but it scores a 7 if you're sticking to a mono-faction, non-fluff ignoring list. I do not have a problem with Guardsmen deploying by drop pod per-se. They could instead be represented as drop troops of some form, dropping from a “pod” dropped from a low flying plane. It doesn't have to be from space. I just don't like needing to ally another faction to do so.

“Hey Blood Angels! We know you're busy, but could you send us 5 dudes, and a guy to fix stuff up? Oh, and a half-dozen Drop Pods, if you don't mind. Yes, we'd be happy to pay for the shipping and handling. And living expenses. Marines can eat rocks, if they have to, right? Sweet, see you in 20 years...”


Auxiliary – Ogryn Auxilia [Stand-Alone]: Seriously GW, nobody's buying beslubberin' Ogryns

You know why I don't use Ogryns? They don't have an AP 2 weapon option... even if only for the Bone'ead. A leadership benefit is nice, but I couldn't give a tinier turd about the strength of their HoW hits.

2 / 10 – In a similar situation to the Platoon Squad, I'd normally give Ogryns a one, but since they've got a leadership benefit, I'll give them a two. I'd need to spend a stupid amount of points on Ogryns, just for a PAID leadership benefit. You still have to keep that Commie alive.

I can't even be bothered to price it out. You're not actually going to use them in a game. If you do, refer to the joke about super-heavies, above. Make a reasonable substitution.


Auxiliary – Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company [Stand-Alone]: This is the Holy Hand Grenade

This is our Skyhammer Formation, if we can be said to have one. This formation breaks rules. Not just a little bit, but a lot. It breaks special rules in ways that those special rules specifically forbid. It creates,  a nearly unique relationship between two units, through the “Spotter” rules.

First off, issuing orders to vehicles. I was wondering when this would happen. Apparently, now is the time. One order is so nearly useless, that it's ability was actually removed from barrage weapons in general, and not one beslubber was given by anybody. Now, you have a 72% chance to get it, if you issue an order?!? Pass. Well, the odds are better as part of a Decurion-style list, but if you're playing 2500 points, you should just be using a big pile of these formations, take a Platoon or two, and just giggle like a school girl.

One order is useful if you have a squadron, and want them to be able to fire at multiple targets, but that practice reduces the effectiveness of the spotter rules, so it's a give and take, situationally useful order that presumes you took a squadron.

The big winner, is Ignores Cover. Basilisks potentially have Twin-Linked, 2+ to wound, MEQ munching large blasts that do not require Line of Sight. The rules for “Minimum Range” change from edition to edition, so it's worth taking a look at the rules for Barrage, on page 160 of the rule book. It's hardly a restriction at all.

And why is this particular weapon so nasty? Barrage breaks the rules by allowing you to target an enemy outside of LOS. So you can be hit anywhere, but at least you can have a cover save, right? Wrong. And with MEQ piercing AP value, the only protection you have is a TEQ save, or an Invul. Or Reanimation Protocols, if I'm going to be all-inclusive. Even then, -1, you robotic bastards. Even AV 14 has a reasonable chance of being harmed. This breaks the interaction between players, which is one of those things that 7th edition seems to be pushing. This is the Guard's answer to D-Scythes. Not so powerful, but you can hit anything on the board, without leaving your deployment zone.

Basically, you can point and click nearly any unit anywhere on the board, and have a reasonable chance to delete it. Take two squadrons of two, for a third of your points, and bombs away. Oh, and you have to take a Manticore, and an Enginseer.

For this formation, I think I'd ideally take...

170 - Company Command Squad: Vox, Lascannon, Master of Ordnance, in Chimera.
250 – 2x Basilisk:
250 – 2x Basilisk:
170 – Manticore:
 40 – Enginseer:

Total of 880 points... plus I'd want some infantry to bubble wrap them... maybe an Aegis... so pretty easily eating up 1150 points, when all is said and done. It could be done with fewer Bassies, of course, which would drop the cost of the Formation to 630, which is pretty reasonable to add 200 points of Infantry + Aegis to defend them. Half the points of a 1500 point list? Pretty reasonable, to me.

You could squeeze a cut-down version of the BGC command squad, the Tank Core, and this into a 1500 point list, but without infantry to protect them, the tanks would be incredibly vulnerable. Realistically, you need at least 500 points of Platoon grunts to make this work as part of a Decurion-style list.

9 / 10 – This formation is pure potential abuse. It's the core of Leaf-blower play, but with Ignores Cover and twin-linked shenanigans thrown into the mix. As a Guard player, I'm aware of this formation's limitations and vulnerabilities, but I could very much understand non-Guardsmen crying foul over this formation. It crushes the [in my opinion] top three codices of Eldar, Necrons, and Space Marines. For Eldar and Marines, bypassing the Armour and Cover saves is the simple means to exterminate the super-killy-units-of-doom that they possess, from anywhere on the board. Being able to bomb Necrons from the other side of the board while they slowly advance, even reducing their RP, is just particularly well suited to wrecking their game. This is the most rules-breaking formation I've seen for Guard, by a long margin.


Auxiliary – Emperor's Talon Recon Company [Stand-Alone]: Giant metal death-chicken says, “Hi!”

I loves me some Sentinels. I loved them when there was only the Scout version, in the time before. I love them now, though they see little play these days.

And now, the gravy train overfloweth with free, fun, awesome rules for these guys. In the time before, you had to decide between outflanking, and being able to not explode from being sneezed on. Now, you can do both! And you can have some handy movement-related orders. And for some reason, a Sniper order. And you are now ninja-assassins, out to kill a vital target.

This formation looks like FUN to play. The only trick is to pick the right weapons for the job. On one hand, if you agree that Preferred Enemy helps with Gets Hot rolls, then Plasma Cannons are roasty-toasty awesomeness, if you pick the right target to go after. But the “Take Aim” order does little to benefit them, and that's a shame because it's pretty handy if you instead take Lascannons, because between 6 Sentinels, you're apt to roll a 6 to-hit, and then you have a reasonable chance to snipe a model out of a unit. But then again, Multi-Lasers would allow you to force a ton of saves on that precisely chosen target... and you're still probably re-rolling failed to-wounds.

[I should clarify, that you only gain the PE benefit against a unit chosen at the start of the game. If your Emperor's Wrath unit wipes them out before they come on from Outflanking... too bad. ;) ]

For about 270 points, this is just a pure-fun choice. You get an effective “Hunter” unit to chase something down with. It's hard to hide from outflanking big guns, and if you can work an “acute senses” ability into your list for them, good times would be had in abundance.

8 / 10 – So much fun, lots of good rules, and a cheap formation, finally. You can bulk it out, but you'd always be better off taking 2 formations of 2, rather than 1 formation of 4 units, to gain access to another order.

PS: Tangi is clearly a GW plant, if you compare this book to his proposed rules over in the Forge. I told you Tangi, the Emperor's Shield is WAAAY too many points! Change this for the upcoming codex, I beg you!


Auxiliary – Psykana Division [Stand-Alone]: We've now got the most powerful Psykers in the galaxy.

The first thing we run into, is a RAI issue. The RAW do not give you permission to attach the Commissar from this formation, to a Wyrdvane squad. The IG codex [page 92] provides a list of units that a Commissar can attach to, and Wyrdvane are not one of them. The rules for this formation do not change this, so by RAW you must buy a Commissar for this formation, that would need to be attached to a unit from a different formation. Hypothetically, you could create a hang-state game, by not buying a unit from the list on page 92, at which point you could not fulfill the Commissar's requirement that he MUST be attached to one of those units, after rolling Warlord traits before the battle begins.

Lulwut!?! Yes, this is the stupidest formation of all time. Take it, and you're not even allowed to play the game. :D Even worse than pure Legion of the Damned. At least LoD get to start the game, even if they lose automatically at the end of turn 1. At least they get to play, dammit!

So yeah, RAI that amphetamine parrot. Attach the Commie to one of the Wyrdvane units.

This is another “We really screwed up the mechanics for manifesting psychic powers, but if you buy a whole bunch of Psykers, we'll make the Psychic phase work for you,” formation. Take 3 units of Wyrdvanes [like anyone has those] a Primaris, and then have Commissars shoot anyone that grows an extra tentacle. It's pretty much what you'd expect. The main dude knows everybody else's powers, gains extra power dice, while harnessing on a TEQ save-like roll. No, seriously, they want you to buy Wyrdvanes very badly. We might actually have a Primaris Psyker that's more powerful than... any... other Psyker in the 40k Universe. Assuming you have a Lv 2 Primaris, and you have 3 units of 5 Wyrdvanes nearby, he's treated as a Lv 5 psyker. For real.

I'm serious. Read the book. It's true. If you were insane, and put 30 Wyrdvanes near him, you'd treat the Primaris as a Lv 8 Psyker. He'd just be like, “Hey Emprah, I got this whole thing. Just take a break for a millenia or so. I am more powerful than you.”

So aside from the utter Fluff-Murder, and I wouldn't normally give a fart in the wind about that, but this is full on...

Tropic Thunder (5/10) Movie CLIP - Never Go Full Retard (2008) HD - YouTube

desecration of key characters. Characters like Eldrad, or the Grey Knight Guy, or Tzeentchian Sorcerer Lord Daemon Princes... with long established fluff of being the greatest psykers of their races, even the galaxy. Lv 4 Psykers are “God-like” in their abilities. And Joseph, “I'm barely one hundred and twenty years old,” Schmuck is suddenly Emperor-like in his psychic abilities, because a bunch of sad-sacks that can't even speak for themselves are standing near by? I'm pissed, just for what it says of GW's.... GRAH! Can't even... find... words... full... on...

Anyhow.

My personal trouble with IG's psykers, is that you can't cast any “good” powers while inside a transport. Outside of a transport, a model has simply been misplaced on the board, instead of directly into the casualty bin. Assume, that one of the Wyrdvane units rolls a great power. BLAM! They're dead! Because they're a 5-man GEQ unit, in a world full of Ignores Cover.

So yeah, glass cannon. And the Wyrdvane's can't roll on Telepathy, as far as I can see, so you're probably generating lots of Prescience. By which I mean a metric amphetamine parrot-load of Prescience. You're generating bonus dice, AND harnessing on a TEQ roll. Everything is re-rolling.

Hypothetically, if you have each Wyrdvane roll on a different table, and the Primaris on yet another table, he could know at least 9 powers. Possibly more. And be treated as a Lv 4 / 5 Psyker, until the casualties start rolling in. So you'll start with 7 or 8 power dice...

Typical points? Primaris, 3x 5-Man Wyrdvanes and a Commissar will set you back 255 points to start, more for Lv 2, or more bodies... what-have you.

?? / 10 – Who knows what powers you'll get? Maybe you'll be scrying away without reserves, or trying to punch stuff out with your Wyrdvanes, or levitating your Wyrdvanes and dying to dangerous terrain tests. Maybe you'll be doing balls-out amazing stuff, buffing / blasting your way to unstoppable victory.

At the very least, you'll be generating a lot of dice for not a lot of points. *shrug*


Denouement

The Mont'Ka book is just FULL of amazing stuff for Astra Militarum Players. If you don't have the Escalation Book, or the Assassin Data slate, there are some publications included that are basically free. You also get some formations that distinctly improve the Guard's ability to, you know, rain death from across the board. And issue orders like a right-proper Boss.

Hopefully, the codex will have core formations that aren't so stupidly expensive. I built an Iron Hands Demi-Company, that came out to 915 points... but 245 of that was Chapter Master Smash-Face, so I could have used something much cheaper. Those were mostly Rhino'd infantry, not vulnerable tanks.

Anyhow, I hope that something like the Emperor's Shield Platoon becomes the core choice. With a BGC in a Chimera, that would easily be a base of 600 or more points, which would let you take a large Auxiliary or a pair of smaller Auxiliaries instead, at 1500. The current Core choices are simply too bulky to allow a person to play a decent sized game.

There's some clear power-options here, and some of the Formations would be fantastic add-ons to a smallish CAD, or just combinations of the BGC and Auxiliaries to build a list from.

I'll probably be playing Guard again, at least to try this out for a few games.

Good luck, and good gaming!

Tom Parks

Post Merge: December  5, 2015, 10:30:19 AM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

[Post has grown too large, I can't edit it]

In the section about Psykers, I said that the Primaris could harness on a TEQ roll, but that's wrong. Only the Wyrdvanes can do that. My bad, I'd like to fix it but I can't.

Post Merge: December  5, 2015, 10:50:46 AM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

Lulz, and I can't remove those backslashes from the title... and I double counted the points when figuring out the cost of 3x ES Platoons, so you should knock that back to a total of 4093 points.

Post Merge: December  5, 2015, 10:52:05 AM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

Double counted the Sentinel Points, that is. Take that, rule preventing replying to your own post!  I'd edit this, if I could. :-[
« Last Edit: December 5, 2015, 10:52:06 AM by Spectral Arbor »

Offline Dangerousdave0042

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I haven't mathed the ESIC, but I was wondering if it was remotely possible to take points wise outside apocalypse. But maybe lasguns is the new apocalypse. Yes that Warlord titan can kill (eg) 12 guardsman with its D weapons. I can't kill you at all, but I still win as I get all the board and the strategic objectives!

When I saw the three baneblade formation I was really excited as of course this "MUST" mean they are dropping the points of them finally. I mean otherwise you couldn't take this formation in a normal game. Sadly no. I wouldn't take this formation because the Baneblades or so stupidly overpointed. I've played a game against two baneblades and three russes (that was it) with a Nid army. I didn't blow up one tank (not even a russ), but thrashed him on points - it's was a game of chess and attrition. Yeah your five hundred point Baneblade just killed 25 points of hormagaunts. Shrug. I don't have an issue with playing against Baneblades as the are so points inefficient. They are more points and worse than WK or Stormsurge.

While Guard is technically "better" than we were before, I am, unfortunately, rather underwhelmed at what could have been. I am not asking for all the formations to be broken like the artillery formation, but rather useful and good. By taking these formation you are giving up on Objective secured which for guard can be masses of bodies in one troop choice.

Don't underestimate how far a blob of objective secured conscripts (say 40) with a commissar can footslog / run on a board. Do I shoot models that are 3 points each with a lasgun? No I don't, so on turn three they are in your opponents deployment area and either denying the opponent objectives are getting points for you. Also 40 lasguns, rapid firing, even at BS2 can still do some damage against light infantry. They're like that annoying drop pod that's firing that storm bolter at you - you don't want to take the effort to blow it up, but it just keeps picking off one or two models each turn.

I'm not convinced the emperors Shield benefits outweigh the loss of objective secured.

Also you cannot take an ADL unless you take a CAD. In a tournament I would probably take a CAD with ADL and the artillery formation. But outside a tournament (or practice game for one) I couldn't take the artillery formation and look my opponent in the eye in a friendly game.

I am hoping in the next codex that (just like the SM codex) our formations get bonuses if you take three of them - however, I feel the wyvern will lose ic unless you take three.

I do think GW got it just right with the Vendetta formation - it's cool, it's fluffy, it's not broken and it's not so many points your a one trick army with no other tactic or choice. personally I think Vendettas are pointed about right - maybe 10 points less would be perfect, but they are in the right points area. It's the Stormravens that I think are just way too points expensive.
Just because you can, doesn't mean that you should.

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While Guard is technically "better" than we were before, I am, unfortunately, rather underwhelmed at what could have been. I am not asking for all the formations to be broken like the artillery formation, but rather useful and good. By taking these formation you are giving up on Objective secured which for guard can be masses of bodies in one troop choice.

Don't underestimate how far a blob of objective secured conscripts (say 40) with a commissar can footslog / run on a board. Do I shoot models that are 3 points each with a lasgun? No I don't, so on turn three they are in your opponents deployment area and either denying the opponent objectives are getting points for you. Also 40 lasguns, rapid firing, even at BS2 can still do some damage against light infantry. They're like that annoying drop pod that's firing that storm bolter at you - you don't want to take the effort to blow it up, but it just keeps picking off one or two models each turn.

I'm not convinced the emperors Shield benefits outweigh the loss of objective secured.

That's a big issue for me too actually.  Without objective secured, a small enemy unit in a CAD could take that objective despite the fact that you've got it completely surrounded with your infantry.

About the wider list, I think Spectral pretty much nailed it on the head.  I am all for big infantry formations for the IG but this one went way too far.  The Emperors Sheild Infantry Company could damn well a detachment all on its own, never mind a single formation in a Decurion.

The Emperors Fist tank company is better, but wasn't quite as good as it could have been.  Now unfortunately, I'm not a GW plant (I wish I was though ;)), but if it was me designing it, I would had allowed the tanks to move at combat speed (restricted to an extra 3", still counting as stationary for determining  firepower) despite being heavy, to represent their unstoppable advance.  The increased ram/tank shock could be a simple bonus for taking three tanks in a squadron.  But I would still consider taking it as it is.

The Talon Recon Company and Spear Aerial Company however are sweet!  No complaints at all with the Aerial Company.  I look forward to using it with my four Valkyries ready to go.  The sentinel company is wonderful because I love sentinels and I want to field as many of them as I can.  The two running orders are perfect for them, but take aim is meh.  Strike and shroud from the tank orders would be much better.

Still, it's better than nothing, but right now I say role on the new codex.
« Last Edit: December 5, 2015, 07:37:38 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Spectral Arbor

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I am looking forward to it.

I can't take credit for it, but someone pointed out that the new Wyrdvanes make EXCELLENT Daemon factories. If they throw 3 dice at a Summon power, they have a 58% chance to succeed. If they throw 4 at them, they have an 87% success rate. Admittedly, they have a 72% chance to Perils, but instead of the usual roll, *BLAM* one, singular Wyrdvane gets smoked. So you can rinse and repeat that pretty much as long as you have dudes to sacrifice.

It gives good reason to take large squads, as the Primaris' bonus dice is tied to the number of models, not units nearby. In a perfect world, you could have that formation generate 12 to 17 dice each turn... one of the Wyrdvane units will probably have two summon powers, so you could probably try to summon 4 times per turn, with decent chances to succeed 3 or 4 times per turn.

Hypothetically, you can create a powerful, reliable Daemon farm, while you bomb the piss out of stuff with the Artillery Formation. ;) No need for a Platoon of meat shields, just use Psychic Daemons and generate more dice for next turn!

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What I'm seriously really really curious about...is why GW even made that Emperor's Shield Infantry Company 3 Max 5 squads per platoon formation in the first place? Maybe it's hinting at a drastic points drop in IG across the board? I can't find a use for that "Core" detachment at all...like seriously? Why even print it unless your playing 3500 point games and at that point value the game just gets silly...

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Offline Spectral Arbor

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That's why I gave it a 0 / 10. ;) The only thing I can think of, is that it's a trial run before the codex is released. See if people will bite at that big of a chunk.

When Infantry sales do not increase, hopefully someone will realize they're running into an 8th edition WHFB issue, where you need too many models to play the game GW wants to sell.

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Yeah it's simply too many models!  I am all for infantry formations for the guard inspired by real life units, and especially ones that feature platoons.  I like big armies and I cannot lie.  But this one went way too far.  It's too expensive both in points and money, and there's so many models in it, moving and firing it will just be an absolute pain. 

What I would have done is made it so that the platoons only have to include five units.  Not infantry squads.  Just units in general.  When you include the command squad, infantry squads and the sentinels, now you only have to take one more unit per platoon.  So that shaves almost 60 models and the guts of 300pts off it. 

It's still crazy big in cost and models, but at least then it might be achievable.  I think a platoon with a command squad, two infantry squads, one scout sentinel and a heavy weapon team with the usual upgrades would be about 250pts?  So three of these with a company command squad could come in at around 850pts?  You could squeeze that into a 1500pt list right?

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« Last Edit: December 6, 2015, 11:39:16 AM by Skitarii Tangi »

 


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