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Offline Krivvin

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Eldar Theorizing
« on: September 23, 2015, 12:54:12 PM »
I've been thinking and considering, reading and reviewing, and just in general starting to think about what I want to do with an expanded version of a story that I'm working on.

But anyway, I came to one idea that seems plausible, though completely untouched and left lacking in detail by Games Workshop. (As my friend put it, GW doesn't care enough to work on this material because 'GW has a raging hardon for Space Marines and basically nothing else.')

Reading about Slaanesh. I was curious about the reach of her will and saw mixed information, to me. In one instance, she's omnipresent, there at any moment of temptation, greed, lust, etc. But then in another, she's beatable by Nurgle, which to me implies a level of not being omnipresent. Those two things seem conflicting. I'd think that Slaanesh would be more interesting as a strongly present but not omnipresent being. Otherwise, I think everyone would be corrupted by now.

I also was curious about Spirit Stones so I was trying to find where their creation was mentioned. At first, I couldn't find it so I started hypothesizing about what is going on there. I saw an entry where it mentioned that Eldar create Spirit Stones so I was looking for the Path that was devoted to the creation of Spirit Stones.

BUT, then, I saw the mention that it is a perilous task to find more Spirit Stones. That to get a Spirit Stone is to go to the Crone Worlds within the Eye of Terror. That made me wonder if the spirit stones were made before the Fall, which I rightfully thought was weird because nothing about Eldar society before the Fall suggested any inkling of a want to make such a device.

Furthering my research, I saw a quote: "They are made out of psycho-receptive crystals called waystones." Well, that's great. What's a waystone? I didn't find it at first so it was a real head scratcher for me. But that's also when I came up with an idea.

What if Krivvin and all of his siblings (he has an older sister and younger twin siblings)... What if they were born with a Spirit Stone? An anomaly, born from desperation of his parent's out of love for their children to be free of despair, given form through latent psychic will. After all, the Eldar have a special spiritual and psychic presence in the Universe.

To my understanding, if anything like that were to happen; the Eldar of all would be the one to experience it. It doesn't seem incredibly farfetched, but is definitely an overly unique idea. Hopefully not absurd?

Thinking about it further. That means their spirits are a closed circuit, within the spirit stone by birth. I don't know what kind of durability it may have. I was thinking that it would be part of their body, like grown from bone or grown into bone. Kind of like a calcium deposit.

This would obviously make it a bit more involved to bring their spirit stones back to a Craftworld... That also made me think about their technology. Nothing really covers what they do with studying and tending to pregnant Eldar. It doesn't seem farfetched that they have perfected technology to be able to acutely analyze an Eldar body to know pretty much every aspect of their physiology. Simply, it would be no secret that these children were born with a Spirit Stone fused to their bone structure.

That's when my friend said that Spirit Stones are unique technology, essentially soul traps. If the Eldar have a way to detect and measure souls (which he is 99.9% sure they do), they'd be able to tell if something that doesn't look like a spirit stone is a spirit stone.

That's when I thought about something else. If a spirit stone were spiritually and physically bound to an Eldar throughout their life. It seems like it could grow alongside the Eldar as part of an Eldar's progression in life. As an Eldar's pool of psychic energy grew, it seems like the spirit stone might evolve with it. To what end? I don't know.

After I said that, I found another quote: "Waystones are brought back to the Craftworld to be embedded into a wraithbone core. It then grows into a larger spirit stone." It's definitely capable of evolving, when a spirit is inside of a waystone. That part is important, I think. A spirit is required to tap into the full potential of a waystone.

My friend pointed out "that this only happens after they die and when the spirit stone has a soul in it. Spirit stones are literally just empty vessels that trap souls." BUT! ... These Eldar are born with a connection to the spirit stone Their soul is inside of it already.

Then, I FINALLY FOUND IT. The little line that explains the creation myth of a Spirit Stone. "In Eldar Mythology the spirit stones were created by Vaul from the Tears of Isha. This is taken as a metaphor for the crystallization of the psychic energies of the Eye." CRYSTALLIZATION OF PSYCHIC ENERGIES. In my mind, it made an Eldar born with a Spirit Stone plausible. After all, the birth of Slaanesh didn't create one spirit stone. It created a well pool of energy that seems to constantly create spirit stones. Excessive psychic energy bleeding into the Materium is creating Spirit Stones.

That's also when I touched on Slaanesh being unable to touch the souls of those trapped in a Spirit Stone. Otherwise, she would be eating those souls too. That's the entire purpose of a Spirit Stone. To protect the spirits of the fallen Eldar from "She Who Thirsts."

My friend was thinking about what being bound to a Spirit Stone from birth would mean. He wondered if their souls in a stone, they could maybe do something with it. Like power and pilot wraithguards/lords.

Being encapsulated by a spirit stone means that their souls exist outside of the Warp. An eldar trapped in a soul stone would not be tempted by Slaanesh. It did make me think that it would hinder external psychic powers? I'm not sure really. To my understanding, psychic powers is a psyker reaching out into the Warp to pull out an effect and cause an external event.

My friend pointed out that when an Elder dies, they are put into the stones, which serves as their afterlife. The only way for them to interact outside of the stones if it they are made to be wraithguards or wraithlords.

I don't know if a living Eldar bound to a Spirit Stone would be able to use Psychic powers. I don't know enough about it and it doesn't really seem like they have anything to use to extrapolate further on this chain of thought. I was curious about what one might do with their own pool of psychic energy. Being able to draw that out and use it for smaller effects. It would seem to me like such an Eldar would have diminished psychic potential? Or at least, they wouldn't be able to do the awesome external super psychic powers. Their powers would be limited to the self only, influencing their individual bodies, minds, senses.

Doing so would draw out and push their psychic energy into the Warp. Basically, using Psychic energy would still draw attention like anyone else that uses psychic powers. Otherwise, their presence would seem to be largely concealed, if not completely withheld from the Warp.

... Just one long chain of ridiculous thought. It seems plausible and remotely supported. I didn't find anything that outright contradicts it. That none of this has happened doesn't seem like it is breaking anything. After all, as my friend thinks, "GW has a raging hardon for Space Marines and basically nothing else."

What do you think? I'd like to hear your input. :) (I do not mean to offend or upset anyone! My apologies if I did anything to annoy. I'm just working out an idea. Feel free to critique, review, and debunk based on anyone's expert opinion of lore that I may have missed.)

Offline Grizzlykin

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Re: Eldar Theorizing
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2015, 03:53:43 PM »
First and foremost, welcome to the forum, nearly forgot that >< (had to eddit the post)

Let me cut loose to it i'm sorry to ruin everything but there is an answer aobut this in the path of the eldar 3rd book, the path of the outcast(i believe it's the title).


SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT !! be warry of what you are going to read!


SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT !! be warry of what you are going to read!


SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT !! be warry of what you are going to read!

The spirit stone are created from the cristalisation of the spirit of the trapped spirit of the eldar before the fall on the crone world in the eye of the terror. I can't recall every details, but they are cristalised at a certain point in time and therefore can only be caught at certain moment. Stone not picked up return to there spirit form and wait here tourmented, to be either eaten or brought back by some adventurer to come. You have to avoid temptation, because if you fail, you will call a horde of slaneesh demon to butcher you. This is a very perious task to get there and comen back and can only be achieved if arlequin are willing to show you the way to a crone world. The spirit in the spirit stone, upon being brought back to the craftworld, and given to a newborn eldar, will accomode his psychic wave to match the child's, creatting a protection for his spirit starting this instance and for the rest of his life.


From what I read of your theorie, you were partyally right and most of what you thought could potentially work but that ain't what i know. So nice stuff thinking all of that up non the less!

Perhaps what i said isn't games workshop thought about that, even if these book are published in the black library ><

then again welcome here and i'm looking forward to speak with you as your mind seems to be well built.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 03:55:50 PM by Grizzlykin »
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Offline Krivvin

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Re: Eldar Theorizing
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2015, 07:44:45 PM »
SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT !! be warry of what you are going to read!


SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT !! be warry of what you are going to read!


SPOILER ALERT SPOILER ALERT !! be warry of what you are going to read!

The spirit stone are created from the cristalisation of the spirit of the trapped spirit of the eldar before the fall on the crone world in the eye of the terror. I can't recall every details, but they are cristalised at a certain point in time and therefore can only be caught at certain moment. Stone not picked up return to there spirit form and wait here tourmented, to be either eaten or brought back by some adventurer to come. You have to avoid temptation, because if you fail, you will call a horde of slaneesh demon to butcher you. This is a very perious task to get there and comen back and can only be achieved if arlequin are willing to show you the way to a crone world. The spirit in the spirit stone, upon being brought back to the craftworld, and given to a newborn eldar, will accomode his psychic wave to match the child's, creatting a protection for his spirit starting this instance and for the rest of his life.

Thanks! I appreciate the information. This has been helpful. I've actually posted this theory on multiple forums. You've reinforced some ideas and given me insight to new ones.

Ultimately, I think the idea of a spirit stone by birth seems unlikely. Or even as a whole something that wouldn't really do anything essential. Not that I can think of after hearing more information. :)

I did hear from someone that they think there may be some plausibility for it, based on other factors. They didn't have time to get into it, but I'm eager to hear about what they have to tell me.

I don't have too much to share right now, I'm still researching it until I can actually know I have a full grasp of canon, enough to extrapolate further on ideas.

Honestly, the Spirit Stone fused to the body is a farfetched idea that popped into my head while just simply researching. I wanted to see how far I could take it and what it might do for an individual. :)

Offline Irisado

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Re: Eldar Theorizing
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2015, 05:45:35 AM »
Based on all the information that I have read over the years, a Spirit Stone birth seems impossible to me.  There's no clear evidence to support such a thing taking place.  As a result, if you want to write a story which adheres to the background of the Eldar, I would recommend not going down this path.
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Re: Eldar Theorizing
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2015, 11:16:03 AM »
Based on all the information that I have read over the years, a Spirit Stone birth seems impossible to me.  There's no clear evidence to support such a thing taking place.  As a result, if you want to write a story which adheres to the background of the Eldar, I would recommend not going down this path.

I wasn't married to the idea. It just popped into my head and sought out advice from others. Thanks. I agree. I wouldn't want to go down this path either.
---

After some discussion, the idea of an Eldar being born with a Spirit Stone doesn't seem possible, feasible, or worthwhile for the Eldar. Though through discussion, an interesting scenario was given to me. BUT, I came up with an idea to expand on that and was curious what others thought.

They told me that Daemons are always eager to possess a living host to use as a vessel in the real world, and Eldar in particular are favorite victims of Slaaneshi creatures. If the would-be host has the mental fortitude to throw off the will of a daemon however, and free themselves from possession; it renders them immune to becoming repossessed. (Something the Inquisition makes a point of using if their agents find an individual capable of it.) In addition, the individual gains stronger resistances to general Chaos influence.

That's also when they said that it would be near impossible for a young child to commit such a feat, but it might be within the realm of possibility in a situation such as: A pair of Eldar (the other being a friend/family/mentor/etc.) are sheltering themselves from a Chaos assault on their Craftworld, an assault undertaken by an ambitious champion of the Dark Gods. Warp rifts are opening all over, pouring unholy energies into the world around them. Despite their best efforts, the pair is found by an enemy soldier.

The other Eldar and the warrior fight. The warrior is killed, but manages to damage/destroy the other Eldar's Soul Stone before falling. Without the protection offered by his/her Stone, the Eldar is exposed to the raw power of the Warp being unloaded by the rifts, crippling his/her soul and allowing a daemon of Slaanesh to enter his/her mind. A mental battle ensues, the host is overpowered, but puts up enough of a fight to damage both: their own body and the daemon's essence.

With the initial target falling apart and unusable, the weakened daemon turns on the other Eldar, seeking to consume his soul and use him as a replacement vessel. A fierce battle takes place inside his head as he struggles to hold onto both his life and his sanity as the daemon wreaks havoc. With supreme effort of will, he manages to tear the creature from his soul and cast it back into the Warp through sheer force of will (possibly sparked by the dire situation of the other Eldar / or death of the other Eldar / or supplemented by latent psychic potential / open to suggestions).

Scene ends with him being found beside the body of the fallen Eldar in the ruins of wherever they'd been taking shelter, found after the Chaos army has been routed.

--------------------------

Now... for the story, I am using one of my oldest RPG characters. In the recent past, I came up with siblings for him. An older sister. About 11-12 years older. Younger siblings: twins. I never came up with anything for his parents though and was working on that. My thoughts are that the mother would be an Autarch and the father would be a Spiritseer.

In this scenario, what would you think could happen of an Autarch (the mother) experienced such a trial alongside... say her own father, twin sister, or mother? The mother becomes immune to Possession and greater resistance to Chaos Influence. Is there any chance that this could be passed on to the children?

Post Merge: September 24, 2015, 12:42:20 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

Based on further feedback, I see that passing on an Immunity to Possession is not feasible. Though, one person did comment on the Indomitable Will of the Mother that was capable of casting off a Daemon trying to possess her. And then saying that this trait, an Indomitable Will, being passed down to the children could be possible... and then left it up to me to do with what I will based on that idea. :)

---

Apologies for the double post.

After seeing responses from others, I realized that the feat of throwing off possession would naturally be an individual feat. That anyone else would need to achieve that of their own accord. I did have a thought though. This is going into pure speculation, not knowing if this is contradicted in any canon materials.

After the mother experiences the event, she has an encounter with the future father of her children (a Spiritseer) who has divined that together - "With the third child of your union, a fourth would join them." (i.e. a divination of a promised "twin" which I know is very special and even treasured for what twin Eldar are capable - Revenant Titans, Phantom Titans, Wraithknights...) I'm not really sure what they would be. Honestly, the twins are from an original idea. I only just found out that twins are special, which is really cool to me.

Now, I didn't know about the ages of time required for Paths. I'm not attached to requiring the mother to be an Autarch at the time of the event. It could have been a precursor, a sign to the others, that she is of special quality that would elevate her towards becoming an Autarch in the future. To my understanding, an Autarch is never lost on the path and that an Autarch is more capable than an Exarch, who is lost on the path.

I did have another crazy idea. With the father being a spiritseer, he has a communion with other seers. They give him advice on having a ceremony/ritual with the would-be mother of promised twins: a ritual that shares the experience, trauma, struggle, event... gives that to the father and kind of emboldens/strengthens his spirit against Chaotic influence. All of this while in the protection of the Crystal Dome of Seers.

In the future, this ritual (after having been accomplished by both) would then be repeated with greater support - the father being able to provide his own will to the ritual while enacting it upon, in this case, the first born child: Krivvin's eldest sister, who often actually is seen as the most promising, most talented, most capable of all of the siblings. Then, it would be to do the same for Krivvin so that by the time the twins are born - a small circle is involved in the ritual for them to be especially cared for during the moment.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 01:10:06 PM by Krivvin »

Offline Irisado

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Re: Eldar Theorizing
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2015, 09:27:36 AM »
If any Eldar is taken by Slaanesh, they are not possessed, rather their soul is consumed by the Chaos God.  There is no fate more terrifying to a member of the Eldar race than this, and it is something that they avoid at all costs.  While it is possible for an Eldar to become possessed, it is very unlikely, especially when compared to human races.

An Autarch is not necessarily more capable than an Exarch.  They have different skills.  An Autarch is a strategist and a bit of a jack of all trades in terms of combat; whereas an Exarch is a dedicated and specialised killing machine, whose combat prowess is arguably better than that of the Autarch with respect to their chosen speciality.

Regarding the ideas for your story.  Have you read the Path of the Warrior and Path of the Seer?  Both of these books would probably help you to focus more on ideas which allow you to use your creativity, but in a way that is perhaps more in keeping with Eldar background. 
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Re: Eldar Theorizing
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2015, 11:42:56 AM »
If any Eldar is taken by Slaanesh, they are not possessed, rather their soul is consumed by the Chaos God.  There is no fate more terrifying to a member of the Eldar race than this, and it is something that they avoid at all costs.  While it is possible for an Eldar to become possessed, it is very unlikely, especially when compared to human races.

An Autarch is not necessarily more capable than an Exarch.  They have different skills.  An Autarch is a strategist and a bit of a jack of all trades in terms of combat; whereas an Exarch is a dedicated and specialised killing machine, whose combat prowess is arguably better than that of the Autarch with respect to their chosen speciality.

Regarding the ideas for your story.  Have you read the Path of the Warrior and Path of the Seer?  Both of these books would probably help you to focus more on ideas which allow you to use your creativity, but in a way that is perhaps more in keeping with Eldar background.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Though, I read on the Lexicanum that: "The insight of an Autarch provides them with unparalleled strategic capability as they know of each specialty of the Eldar way of war to such an extent that even an Exarch cannot match them. This is because an Exarch is obsessed with only one facet of a conflict and thus forever bound to it, which prevents them from ever hoping to achieve the heights of an Autarch."
« Last Edit: September 25, 2015, 11:58:45 AM by Krivvin »

Offline Irisado

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Re: Eldar Theorizing
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2015, 12:45:57 PM »
Which supports what I was saying about Exarchs being more capable in their specialised area and Autarchs having the advantage in terms of overall strategy and being more familiar with all the specialisations of the Eldar Aspects ;).
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Re: Eldar Theorizing
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2015, 01:23:39 PM »
Though, I read on the Lexicanum that: "The insight of an Autarch provides them with unparalleled strategic capability as they know of each specialty of the Eldar way of war to such an extent that even an Exarch cannot match them. This is because an Exarch is obsessed with only one facet of a conflict and thus forever bound to it, which prevents them from ever hoping to achieve the heights of an Autarch."

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Offline Krivvin

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Re: Eldar Theorizing
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2015, 07:54:40 PM »
Thanks! This has helped me to better understand the Path of Command. Thank you both. :)

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Re: Eldar Theorizing
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2019, 08:48:41 PM »
As I like to drop by this forum every now and again to share opinions and perspectives from back in the day--that is the day of the "grognards"--I'm going to do a drive-by 'fluff' drop now.

With that said, please remember that this is based on perspectives of old 'fluff' and integrates personal perspectives and "fan materials" (though I'll differentiate the two). Furthermore, I've been out of the 40k fandom for quite some time, which means that I'm not up-to-date on the more recent materials (post-2008, ish).

I also was curious about Spirit Stones so I was trying to find where their creation was mentioned.
What might bake your noodle is that true "spirit stones" are not necessarily the same thing as the "waystones" that Eldar wear and further, waystones can become spirit stones.

...so I was looking for the Path that was devoted to the creation of Spirit Stones.
The original spirit stones were a gift from, IIRC, Isha to allow the Eldar to communicate with the gods. So that would suggest that whatever they were was created before the Fall as per your argument.

Furthering my research, I saw a quote: "They are made out of psycho-receptive crystals called waystones." Well, that's great. What's a waystone?
This is where you're getting into the rocky territory of interpretation across editions. My understanding--or maybe just my belief--is that the Eldar are perfectly able to create Waystones and that, when they are implented into the Infinity Circuit, they become Spirit Stones.

(Mostly because that is what was originally said about these things from the days of WD127.)

Being encapsulated by a spirit stone means that their souls exist outside of the Warp. An eldar trapped in a soul stone would not be tempted by Slaanesh.
That was, I believe, the purpose.

My friend pointed out that when an Elder dies, they are put into the stones, which serves as their afterlife. The only way for them to interact outside of the stones if it they are made to be wraithguards or wraithlords.
That depends on which edition of the 'fluff' you follow. For example, there is an example from earlier materials where by the spirits in the Infinity Circuit are excited to see, and watch, the performance of Harlequins. The whole wraithguard/lord sight thing is a product of later wargame 'fluff,' so this means that you're going to have to take everything with a pinch of salt.

I don't know if a living Eldar bound to a Spirit Stone would be able to use Psychic powers.
Well, on that front you might want to remember the old "Warlock Titans" and, further, that the original wraiths were created by binding the spirit with the "robotic" body. They were called the "Tuisich Novasmair," or "Lord Avatars" (IIRC).

 


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