Topic: This is why battle companies are stupid! 1850 Dark Angels

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

I just had to write this list up to see how incredibly stupid it is that I can legally do this crap.

Lion's Blade Strike Force

Demi-Company - 520pts
Chaplain - 90pts
3x 5 Tactical Marines:  Razorback w/ TL Lascannon. - 270pts
5 Assault Marines:  Razorback w/ TL Lascannon. - 90pts
5 Devastator Marines:  Razorback w/ TL Heavy Bolter.  - 70pts

Demi-Company - 445pts
Company Master:  Melta bombs - 95pts
3x 5 Tactical Marines:  Razorback w/ TL Heavy Bolter. - 210pts
5 Assault Marines:  Razorback w/ TL Heavy Bolter. - 70pts
5 Devastator Marines:  Razorback w/ TL Heavy Bolter.  - 70pts

Ravenwing Attack Squadron - 295pts
Bike Squadron:  6 Bikes w/ 2 Grav-guns + Attack Bike w/ Heavy Bolter. - 225pts
Land Speeder:  Assault Cannon / Heavy Bolter. - 70pts

Ravenwing Attack Squadron - 295pts
Bike Squadron:  6 Bikes w/ 2 Grav-guns + Attack Bike w/ Heavy Bolter. - 225pts
Land Speeder:  Assault Cannon / Heavy Bolter. - 70pts

Ravenwing Attack Squadron - 295pts
Bike Squadron:  6 Bikes w/ 2 Grav-guns + Attack Bike w/ Heavy Bolter. - 225pts
Land Speeder:  Assault Cannon / Heavy Bolter. - 70pts

Total Points:  1850
Model Count:  86
True points value:  2400

I'm just blown away at how GW could have possibly thought this was a good idea?  I mean, giving an army 550 free points that are Objective Secured?  Not to mention the army is great at Overwatch if the marines get out of the transports.  Well, as great as 5 guys with bolters can be...

I felt dirty just writing this list...

[Calamity]

I guess the need to sell huge ammounts of models overrides any sense of balance in the game. 

[Grizzlykin]

Well iguess they did not sell enought wraithknight then >< that surely look dirty :/ perhaps testing this in a tournament would be fun, does any one want to test it out for us ><

Gml i ear you here, game workshop really beslubbered up this edition when it comes to balance, do they intend to get somewhere like age of sigmar? The more i see the less confident i feel about the fact that getting back into the hobby was a good idea :/

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

Gml i ear you here, game workshop really beslubbered up this edition when it comes to balance, do they intend to get somewhere like age of sigmar? The more i see the less confident i feel about the fact that getting back into the hobby was a good idea :/

That's the thing, I don't think these ridiculous combo's have caused an issue with balance at all.  The issue is that some armies are still using rules from a previous edition that have not been brought into line with these seemingly crazy combos.

Necron Decurion and Eldar Craftworld Host detachments can make for some pretty rough lists that Marine players have a hard time cracking, but when you compare that to a Lion's Blade or Gladius Strike Force with two Demi-Companies... those free transports can really swing the balance back towards even.  Granted, they may have gone a bit too far in saying that all transports are free.  I am sure if they had kept with the idea they previously had for Assault Marines where they received a 35pt discount on their transports, there would be less complaints.

10 free Rhinos or Drop Pods?  No problem.  It is when it is the Razorback that contributes to the combat a lot more that there are issues.


Edit:  I think I made it worse...

Chaplain + Master
6x 10 marines w/ Grav-gun / Lascannon / Heavy Bolter Razorback
2x 10 Assault Marines w/ Heavy Bolter Razorback
5 Devastators w/ 4 Plasma Cannons / Heavy Bolter Razorback
5 Devastators w/ 4 Grav-Cannons / Heavy Bolter Razorback

92 marines and 10 razorbacks... *shudder*

30 heavy bolter shots
6 lascannon
24 - 38 Grav shots
4 Plasma Cannon shots
90 - 160 bolt shots.

And then the marines standing there... daring you to charge them...

[Wyldhunt]

My understanding is that lists like this aren't all that scary offensively.  Sure, you get a bunch of free points, but you also have 480 points tied up in tac marines (which are often considered to be lackluster) and another 300 tied up in assault marines and devastators.  Unless you excluded upgrades from your post,  those tacs, assaults, and devs are also all naked.  You come out of this list with about 550 free points worth of razorbacks, but you seem to have spent 780 points on units that aren't all that scary even if you did give them gear upgrades. 

From what I understand, lists like this basically win by flinging objective secured units across the table and having enough raw bodies on the table to outlast opponents while they sit on objectives.  Which is effective and annoying, but not really "scary."  I feel pretty sure that the average 1850 eldar list would win fire fights with this list.  They just don't necessarily win games because there's a ton of marines walking around claiming objectives.

Considering tacs, assault marines, and devastators are all considered sort of subpar,  it could be argued that adding free points to a list that features a lot of them is one way to balance them out.  I consider this a vastly inferior option next to simply improving their effectivenes (even if it means upping their points cost), but I can see the theory behind it.  This is also a great way to sell those new assault and devastator kits they put out.

[Calamity]

This is why I hate not being able to play the game anymore at present.  I can't tell what's right with it and what's wrong with it.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

From what I understand, lists like this basically win by flinging objective secured units across the table and having enough raw bodies on the table to outlast opponents while they sit on objectives.  Which is effective and annoying, but not really "scary."  I feel pretty sure that the average 1850 eldar list would win fire fights with this list.  They just don't necessarily win games because there's a ton of marines walking around claiming objectives.

And that is the kicker.  With all of the formations coming with the new codices, you start seeing less and less ObSec.  Granted, for the Eternal War missions, that only matters at the end of the game.  But if you are playing Maelstrom, that can mean a world of difference.  Considering how mobile the army is, that is a lot of fast moving, expendable, Obsec units.

You are right, however, that an average Eldar list will win a fire fight; but competitively speaking, winning the game is where it matters.

[Wyddr]

And that is the kicker.  With all of the formations coming with the new codices, you start seeing less and less ObSec.  Granted, for the Eternal War missions, that only matters at the end of the game.  But if you are playing Maelstrom, that can mean a world of difference.  Considering how mobile the army is, that is a lot of fast moving, expendable, Obsec units.

(quietly shovels more evidence on the pile marked "Why Maelstrom Games Are Stupid")

Eternal War--always, always Eternal War. Decent odds you'll wind up playing Emperor's Will or Purge the Alien or the Relic and your hordes and hordes of toothless ObSec units just don't matter as much anymore. It keeps things balanced.

As does playing point levels of 1750 or lower, but that's probably understood.

I see GW as playing a trick on the competitive scene, frankly. They say "oh, you like to win, huh? Well, you'll have to buy *everything* and we'll only make the best combos fieldable if you track up closer to 2000 points." So you've got army after army of crazy nonsense and everybody complaining about it and yet, all this time, you could just be playing sedate, lower-point armies and having a good time and nice competitive games. Of course, they aren't WAAC, but what the hell do they care? 

[Dangerousdave0042]

I was at Bay Area Open last weekend, and the highest SM player with the Galdius Strike Force was 8th

1. Demons
2. An Adeptus mechanicus/BA
3. Tau
4 Eldar/Dark Eldar
5. CSM
6. Taudar
7. Skitari/BA
8. SM (Gladius strike force)
9. Tau
10. Orks

I played a Tau player (3 riptides and 9 Broadsides!!!) in my third game who had just lost to the Gladius strike force in the previous game. He said he was wiping it out, but just couldn't do it fast enough, and those obsec marines were racking up the maelstrom points. He reckoned he killed about 2200 out of the 2400 points at the game end.

I agree GW are going about it the wrong way in trying to even things up. I don't mind formations where it is take these few units and you get to re-roll a to hit of 1 (when you're BS3) or something like that, or you get the scout USR as a little bonus. But some of these formations are just silly.

I had a friend who used to take six razorbacks in a 1000 point game back in the old GK codex when the troop tax for them was 9 points and look at me and go what's the problem? Gee let me think? I can't take enough fire power to destroy 6 tanks at 1000 points and I pay a tax of 90 points per razorback and I can't get +1s for 5 points! He then complained when my tacticals took two landraiders as DT (which sadly they can't do anymore) in the next 1000 point game cause he couldn't deal with that. What goes around comes around!

You'd never do this in a game with your friends (usually - see above!!) unless you'd agreed upon it in advance.

[murgel]

IMO it is mostly about the type of game which makes for the fun of it.
I personally do not like Eternal War at all. It reduces the game to 1-2 significant turns namely the fifth and a possible sixth most of the other turns really only matter as far as whether you can kill enough obsec units (most times you can't).
Maelstorm is a neat idea but needs some twigging to work better. Ideas about that have been the reintroduction of the strategy stat for Warlords in order to modify the objectives.

All in all I like the new approach and hope it will live for a few more editions to see all the bugs taken care of. Especially as FAQs are not to be expected...