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Raven Guard ideas
« on: July 3, 2015, 07:19:35 PM »
If I wanted to make a Raven Guard force, what are good options to take apart from Scouts?  From what I read of their Chapter Tactics, they seem to like Assault Marines, Bikes and Dreadnoughts.
« Last Edit: July 3, 2015, 07:21:33 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Raven Guard ideas
« Reply #1 on: July 4, 2015, 01:33:25 PM »
Unfortunately, the Raven Guard Tactics are pretty tame, unless you focus on Assault Squads. The upside to that, is that SM Assault Squads are reasonably good right now.

In my experience using Blood Angels [that use a large amount of Jump Infantry] they need mobile heavy / special weapon support. In that role, BA's have fast tanks that are great to work with them. :) The shooty units soften targets, and tend to draw early firepower as they're the more immediate threat.

Since SM don't have fast tanks, but Bikes make a fanstastic weapon platform for special weapons, and Land Speeders / Stormtalons make for fast moving Heavy Weapon support. Razorbacks could also work, but they are a little slower. Same issue with Dreads, unless you Pod them into the fray.

If you're making Assault Squads into "Hammer" units, with PW / Meltabomb Vet Sarge, a pair of Eviscerators, and maybe flamers too, then taking Scouts in LSS transports could allow you to have heavy weapon support, and some "tie up" troops whose job it is to hold things in place while your Assault Squads do their damage.

Since that would be nearly impossible to do with formations, my suggestion would be to use a CAD. My first suggestion would be something along the lines of...

Chapter Master Smash-Face
5x Bikes with guns, MB Sarge

5x Scouts with MB Sarge [PW Vet Optional]
LSS Transport

5x Scouts with MB Sarge [PW Vet Optional]
LSS Transport

10x Assault Squad, PW + MB Vet Sarge, 2x Eviscerators, 2x Flamers

10x Assault Squad, PW + MB Vet Sarge, 2x Eviscerators, 2x Flamers

1x Storm Talon w/ Skyhammer Missiles

5x Scouts w/ Sniper

5x Scouts w/ Sniper

2x Land Speeders w/ Guns


That gives you 3 fast Melee units, 2 fast tie up / fire support units, 3x *Fragile* but fast fire support units, and a couple cheap objective campers / bait units.

The problem, in my eyes, is that a White Scar version would be better, except for the reliable charge range / HoW hits for the Assault Squads. Hit and Run lets you get out of combats you don't want to be in [I've had scouts live through being assaulted] which then lets you turn your fire support units upon the enemy unit, before counter charging with one of your own melee units. That is a strength that can't be ignored, it's phenomenally powerful. You can then move your campers back onto the objective while your melee beast blasts off to the next victim. Instead of sacrificing your scouts, they keep scoring the objective / drawing fire from melee units.

Ravenguard would be better if they had stealth for the whole game, instead of shrouded for one turn. As it is... the power is kind of meh compared to the others. I'd be more strongly tempted by Ultramarines, White Scars, or even Sallies [Land Speeders with a HFl / MM?] but I'd need to work Vulkan into the list instead of CM Smash-Face. Substituting Vulkan with some Honour Guard in a Pod maybe? Rework some things and give them a Redeemer instead?

Anyhow, I find building a Raven Guard list to take advantage of their abilities leaves me with the immediate feeling that the list would be more powerful as something else. They were my first "interest" in this codex, coming from Blood Angels, but I quickly found that everything else was better, in my eyes.

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Re: Raven Guard ideas
« Reply #2 on: July 4, 2015, 04:02:31 PM »
Well, that sounds disappointing.  :(

Thanks for the sample list though.  I was thinking of something like that.  And I do already have a scout squad with a Storm, unpainted and ready to go.

In truth, it's not actually the Raven Guard I'm interested in, but their successor chapter, The Raptors.  Who seem to be the only Space Marines open to the idea of camo.  And as a guard player, I like that.  That's what always put me off Marines; the colours.  :P

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Raven Guard ideas
« Reply #3 on: July 4, 2015, 08:46:14 PM »
Hmmm... Using the codex, I'm not sure what I'd suggest for "Sensible Marines." The sneaky part of the Raven Guard tactics seems ideally situated to going first. That way, you've got turn 1 where you can attack, opponent turn 1 where you're protected from shooting, and turn 2 where you start springing your ambush with assault. If you go second, you're protected from a first turn alpha strike, but you're on the back foot in terms of assaulting, and you aren't protected against the second turn of fire / assaulting.


The only things I can think of that could represent sneaky / setting an ambush would be taking some Techmarines and boosting fortifications / increasing concealment. Iron Hands get the most out of that. You could maybe justify the FNP as representing "stealth". Powerful weapons just blast through the attempts at concealment? Combined with a MEQ Cover Save, the FNP raises successful resistance to a wound to 72.2%. A TEQ save, first turn only, is 83.3%. So in a boosted ruin, you'd have longer term survivability. If you take Scouts with Camo, in a boosted Ruin, you'd be looking at 86.1% survivability after the FNP. So technically, the most survivable Scouts in the game. Dreads of any stripe have no way to increase cover, but IWND could kind of represent stealth in an after-the-fact kind of way. Nyeah-nyeah... you didn't get me! Even though it looked like you did. I'm just that sneaky!

If you want to use Bikes, then White Scars have bonuses to their Jink rolls, that could represent stealthyness... sort of. Nothing stopping you from taking a Character HQ and a couple Bike squads as the troops for a minimum CAD. White Scars with H&R make for what I'd say is the best counter-assault army. Bait unit gets charged, you break off and know where you need to focus your firepower ahead of time. Set up a shooting gallery, reasonably confident that you aren't going to be in a situation where your opponent is in combat, safe from fire.

Ultramarines with their doctrines could represent springing an ambush... I guess. Nothing stealthy, but the ambush tactics would kind of be represented?

Offline Flumpy

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Re: Raven Guard ideas
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2015, 02:55:26 AM »
Sorry if this counts as Necromancy!  :-[

To the OP: can you run Forgeworld stuff?  If you look at the Badab War PDF's in the download section you can get a little extra for Raptor Chapter Tactics; but more importantly; Lias Issadon their Chapter Master. He's a shooty named IC, but the rules he takes with him can be powerful with the right approach ie; sabotage stuffs, reserve stuffs and his Warlord Trait being Master of Ambush from the Rulebook.

Although I don't play Marines yet, I've thought about a few fluffy lists for the Raptors as it's the 1 of 2 MEQ armies I actually like. The other being Alpha Legion.

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Re: Raven Guard ideas
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2015, 02:02:21 PM »
I wasn't aware of those rules.  Thanks for drawing my attention to them.  :)

I do worry that doing a Raptors army is a little too similar to the IG in terms of aesthetic style but I'm sure they'll play very differently.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 02:25:22 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Flumpy

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Re: Raven Guard ideas
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2015, 11:13:22 AM »
If you're meaning Scouts I'm not sure the RG tactics improve them much if at all sadly. Which is strange given their fluff. It does help Tacticals support Scouts directly.

I think it could make a non-mechanised army viable though. With Lias, you can infiltrate 3 infantry squads. Even on foot and 18" away from the enemy (preferably in cover) you can be in rapid fire range on Turn 1. With Sternguard that can be a lot of hurt. I also think Terminators of the shooty variety have a place with Raptors using Scout/bikers to teleport them in accurately.

My ideas are Scouts, Landspeeder Storms, (Scout)Bikes for disruption. Tacticals and Sternguard with Lias for the core and maybe Terminators,Thunderfire Cannons and Legion of the Damned for support. Scouts would be bolters for the storm, maybe some Snipers. Plasma/Melta for the Tacticals.

Damn, I believe I'll be picking up the codex tomorrow before I game...

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Raven Guard ideas
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2015, 11:09:06 PM »
Err... if you're taking LS Storms, I'd think you'd either want Shotguns or BP / CCW for the scouts. Open-topped vehicle and all. ;)

 


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